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PaRDeS and Berei**** 1:20-25

Concerning Berei**** 1:20-25 ...

  • science got it wrong

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • the Torah got it wrong

    Votes: 1 20.0%
  • other (PaRDeS)

    Votes: 4 80.0%

  • Total voters
    5

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
Instead of G-D telling them what to do, they are going to tell G-D what his commandments are supposed to be.

I pointed out the passages in Dvarim 13 to these christians many times.

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

And just a few verses later in Devarim 17:

"If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, even matters of controversy within thy gates; then shalt thou arise, and get thee up unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose.

And thou shall come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days; and thou shalt inquire; and they shall declare unto thee the sentence of judgment.

And thou shalt do according to the tenor of the sentence, which they shall declare unto thee from that place which the LORD shall choose; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they shall teach thee.

According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
"

It would appear that this suggests that any time there is a point of contention, confusion, or controversy it is upon "the judge that shall be in those days" to provide a resolution. After the resolution has been given, we should do, and not turn aside, to the right nor the left.

This is the basis upon which halachic practice is founded. And while there is a halachic process for how these resolutions come about, there is a wealth of tradition providing evidence that these resolutions can sometimes be changes which indicate our practice should be completely different than we might assume had we been left with pshat alone. In fact, I would argue that if it were possible to get it completely right with pshat alone, we would not have this section of Devarim telling us how we should resolve such issues. Surely you don't believe this is only speaking about when "technology changes"?


Can PaRDeS retain its coherence in the absence of such a conviction?


I would argue that it could not. The complexity PaRDeS suggests would be, without the divine element, impossible to imbue if the text were solely the work of man and his whims.

And can such a conviction be maintained in the presence of clear errors in the pshat of the text?

Yes. There is no requirement that the pshat be congruent with scientific research, and if it isn't, that would suggest that perhaps our understanding of the text, its purpose and what it describes, is incorrect.
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Can PaRDeS retain its coherence in the absence of such a conviction, … ?
I would argue that it could not. The complexity PaRDeS suggests would be, without the divine element, impossible to imbue if the text were solely the work of man and his whims.
I agree, although I would suggest that the phrase "and his whims" is prejudicial and wholly unfair. I would no more consider the Torah to be the product of human whim than I would consider Rambam's Guide for the Perplexed or Heschel's Heavenly Torah to be products of human whim.


..., and can such a conviction be maintained in the presence of clear errors in the pshat of the text?
Yes. There is no requirement that the pshat be congruent with scientific research, and if it isn't, that would suggest that perhaps our understanding of the text, its purpose and what it describes, is incorrect.
Let's assume for the sake of discussion that (a) the general sequence proposed by science is correct, and (b) that it differs from the pshat of Berei**** 1:20-25. Can you imagine a purpose that would require or otherwise lead HaShem to describe an inaccurate sequence?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There is a logic and a methodology that progresses from viewing Torah as, literally, holy writ wherein every letter has multiple and divine intent. One can accept or reject the premise, but that renders the conclusion no less reasonably coherent.

Alternatively, there is a logic and a methodology that progresses from viewing Torah as human text, refined through a long process of oral and textual transmission, and conditioned by the authors and their times. Again, one can accept or reject the premise, but that renders the conclusion no less reasonably coherent.

But it seems to me that some real problems arise for those who try to straddle these two camps. Their explanations often bring to mind the word of that most curious goy, Humpty Dumpty:
Let me now return to the poll. I find Berei**** 1 to be remarkable on a number of levels, containing more than its share of jewels in a text bedecked with jewels. But this in no way prevents me from acknowledging that the author got the order of creation wrong. Whether or not his intent was to divulge this order is (a) unknown to me, and (b) wholly beside the point. The fact remains: science tells us that the pshat is in error, and one would imagine that Holy Writ would be more than capable of avoiding such an embarrassment.

Nor am I impressed by efforts to navigate the distinction between God-authored and Man-authored by referenced to 'God-inspired', since I am not sure what is intended by these appeals. I am inspired by many things, none of which (or whom) render me any less fallible.

It is my belief that those who evolved PaRDeS were, in fact, inspired by an abiding belief in Torah as holy writ, and I further believe that this approach to biblical interpretation rests firmly on that conviction. So let me ask this question:
Can PaRDeS retain its coherence in the absence of such a conviction, and can such a conviction be maintained in the presence of clear errors in the pshat of the text?
Finally, regarding CMike. While I have occasionally found him infuriating (and have him on my ignore list) I acknowledge the coherence of his position and probably share some of his frustration with those who (from my perspective) approach Torah as a text partially pregnant with divine authorship.

And here there's an irony. For those who believe that Torah is entirely divinely inspired and inerrant, and also for those who believe it is neither divinely inspired nor inerrant, their position is simple and consistent. However, for those who believe that Torah may be at least partially divinely inspired and at least inerrant in parts, they have a problem: which parts are and which parts aren't divinely inspired and/or inerrant? As a sense of direction, which Laws do we then follow? Which narratives are to be taken literally?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
For those who believe that Torah is entirely divinely inspired and inerrant, and also for those who believe it is neither divinely inspired nor inerrant, their position is simple and consistent. However, for those who believe that Torah may be at least partially divinely inspired and at least inerrant in parts, they have a problem: which parts are and which parts aren't divinely inspired and/or inerrant?
And I hope that those who speak of something being "partially inerrant" have the good manners to pay the words extra.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
Mordecai Kaplan saw ritual mitzvot as folkways and, in that sense, as minhagim. As Rabbi Richard Hirsh, a Reconstructionist, points out, even if not seen as divinely decreed and one is not doing it for the purpose of satisifying divine fiat, there is a reason to perform the since they are "designed to effect identification with the Jewish people... As long as the ...observance supports and strengthens identification with the Jewish people, it is... appropriate."

Similarly, PaRDeS, traditionally operates on the assumption of, as Jay put it, holy writ. However, the late Larry Kaufman, a Reform writer, suggested PaRDes analysis that does not require, per se, holy writ status. He wrote, "PaRDeS is an acronym for the four levels of understanding: P’shat, the simple meaning of the words, Remez, hint, construed as the context of what lay behind those words at the time they were first uttered, Drash, explanation, or how the text has been interpreted or enhanced by the rabbis over the centuries in the Midrash and other commentaries, and Sod, secret, the hidden meaning that we should extract from the words to make them relevant in our lives today."
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Similarly, PaRDeS, traditionally operates on the assumption of, as Jay put it, holy writ. However, the late Larry Kaufman, a Reform writer, suggested PaRDes analysis that does not require, per se, holy writ status. He wrote, "PaRDeS is an acronym for the four levels of understanding: P’shat, the simple meaning of the words, Remez, hint, construed as the context of what lay behind those words at the time they were first uttered, Drash, explanation, or how the text has been interpreted or enhanced by the rabbis over the centuries in the Midrash and other commentaries, and Sod, secret, the hidden meaning that we should extract from the words to make them relevant in our lives today."
I disagree with some of the above but, that aside, I do not see how the explanation given by you in any way suggests that PaRDeS does not suffer qualitative from the presumption of human authorship. So, for example, appeals to Sod make sense if and only if (a) there is reason to presume the existence of a 'secret' and (b) there is reason to presume that it has value.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Mordecai Kaplan saw ritual mitzvot as folkways and, in that sense, as minhagim. As Rabbi Richard Hirsh, a Reconstructionist, points out, even if not seen as divinely decreed and one is not doing it for the purpose of satisifying divine fiat, there is a reason to perform the since they are "designed to effect identification with the Jewish people... As long as the ...observance supports and strengthens identification with the Jewish people, it is... appropriate."

To me, as an anthropologist, this makes a great deal of sense. We often refer to traditions, including religious traditions, as a "glue" that tends to hold society together by providing some commonality and similar morals and values.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
There is a logic and a methodology that progresses from viewing Torah as, literally, holy writ wherein every letter has multiple and divine intent. One can accept or reject the premise, but that renders the conclusion no less reasonably coherent.

Alternatively, there is a logic and a methodology that progresses from viewing Torah as human text, refined through a long process of oral and textual transmission, and conditioned by the authors and their times. Again, one can accept or reject the premise, but that renders the conclusion no less reasonably coherent.

But it seems to me that some real problems arise for those who try to straddle these two camps. Their explanations often bring to mind the word of that most curious goy, Humpty Dumpty:Let me now return to the poll. I find Berei**** 1 to be remarkable on a number of levels, containing more than its share of jewels in a text bedecked with jewels. But this in no way prevents me from acknowledging that the author got the order of creation wrong. Whether or not his intent was to divulge this order is (a) unknown to me, and (b) wholly beside the point. The fact remains: science tells us that the pshat is in error, and one would imagine that Holy Writ would be more than capable of avoiding such an embarrassment.

Nor am I impressed by efforts to navigate the distinction between God-authored and Man-authored by referenced to 'God-inspired', since I am not sure what is intended by these appeals. I am inspired by many things, none of which (or whom) render me any less fallible.

It is my belief that those who evolved PaRDeS were, in fact, inspired by an abiding belief in Torah as holy writ, and I further believe that this approach to biblical interpretation rests firmly on that conviction. So let me ask this question:
Can PaRDeS retain its coherence in the absence of such a conviction, and can such a conviction be maintained in the presence of clear errors in the pshat of the text?
Finally, regarding CMike. While I have occasionally found him infuriating (and have him on my ignore list) I acknowledge the coherence of his position and probably share some of his frustration with those who (from my perspective) approach Torah as a text partially pregnant with divine authorship.

Fundamentalism is generally quite coherent, as is the opposite. However, I see no reason to reject a more complex approach merely because it does not fit into a dualistic, black/white-yes/no mold.

The Rabbinic tradition makes it clear that Torah is the place where God and the Jewish People come together. As the proverb mentioned in the Zohar synthesizes it, Yisrael v'Orayta v'Kudsha Brich Hu chad hu (Israel, Torah, and the Holy One Blessed Be He are One).

Moreover, part of the integral structure of Rabbinic exegesis are the presumptions that Torah is holy, is eternal, is of infinite potentiality of meaning, and that every bit of Torah must mean something significant and productive.

Personally, if Torah is an entirely human enterprise, I fail to see how it can be the place where God and Israel come together, and I fail to see how it can be holy, or eternal, or hold infinite potentiality of meaning. Therefore, I see no reason to believe Torah is an entirely human enterprise.

However, if Torah-- even just Torah shebichtav-- is entirely the literal dictated word of God, of which each part in all its facets must be accepted completely as Divine, then there is a different problem, as there are several places where the pshat of the text is practically, ethically, or morally insupportable, and the tradition we have from Our Rabbis drashing those verses have not offered helpful reinterpretation or helpful practical reworking of the problematic meanings. And I cannot see believing in a God who said those things and intended them to be taken completely and literally as they are.

Therefore, it seems to me that the point of Torah being the place of coming together of God and Israel, the way in which we, God, and Torah are One, is that Torah is a cooperative enterprise. That Torah shebichtav is the work of prophets, who received divine revelations, and did their best as fallible mortal men to set them forth as best they could; and that Torah sheb'al peh is the work of wise men and women who are not prophets, but who have authority to interpret Torah shebichtav for purposes of both halachah and aggadah. And that when we have a particular facet of the text-- be it pshat, or some traditionally received remez, drash, or sohd reading-- that is absolutely unworkable and insupportable in practice, no matter which way it is turned, then it stands to reason that the applied facet of the text must be one of the others. Which of the others may be a matter for debate, but that it is one of the others seems to me the only reasonable conclusion.

Yes, this way of looking at Torah is complex and requires considerable effort of debate, discussion, and study. It will not fit neatly into either the Orthodox box or the classical Reform/Reconstructionist boxes. But it doesn't have to.

If one takes the charedi approach popular today (including apparently by some who refuse the label of charedi), then exegesis is really a moot point: it was something the Rabbis of the Talmud did, and maybe a few gedolim among the Gaonim or Rishonim, possibly a couple of really extraordinary Acharonim, but no one today should do it, and in any case when it was done it the past, it either was done very conservatively, or it was guided by ruach hakodesh.

If one takes the classical Reform approach, then the PaRDeS paradigm is next to useless. The words themselves, the idea that there might be multiple meanings in the text, might be concepts that can be reclaimed and used, but there would be no reason to use a system of exegesis dependent upon the idea that every bit of Torah has value because there is a spark of divinity within Torah. It would be far more reasonable to use whatever philosophical or source-critical approach to interpreting text that one finds useful and apt to produce edifying and morally progressive results.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
And just a few verses later in Devarim 17:

"If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, even matters of controversy within thy gates; then shalt thou arise, and get thee up unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose.

And thou shall come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days; and thou shalt inquire; and they shall declare unto thee the sentence of judgment.

And thou shalt do according to the tenor of the sentence, which they shall declare unto thee from that place which the LORD shall choose; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they shall teach thee.

According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left. "

It would appear that this suggests that any time there is a point of contention, confusion, or controversy it is upon "the judge that shall be in those days" to provide a resolution. After the resolution has been given, we should do, and not turn aside, to the right nor the left.

.
That's a correct that there needs to be a court system.

If your ox gores my land, they need to figure out who is at fault and the damages.

All cases are somewhat different however Torah law is applied.

We have a penal and civil code. However, we also have a court system to apply it.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
And here there's an irony. For those who believe that Torah is entirely divinely inspired and inerrant, and also for those who believe it is neither divinely inspired nor inerrant, their position is simple and consistent. However, for those who believe that Torah may be at least partially divinely inspired and at least inerrant in parts, they have a problem: which parts are and which parts aren't divinely inspired and/or inerrant? As a sense of direction, which Laws do we then follow? Which narratives are to be taken literally?

It appears that they follow the laws that the like, and they ignore and/or change the laws that they don't like.

It's intellectual dishonesty.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
It's really very simple.

You either believe that the Torah is from G-D or you don't.

If you do, than you can't pick, choose, and change the laws that you don't like.

If you don't, than it's a completely different belief system than actual judaisam, and there is little in common to discuss.
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
It's really very simple.

You either believe that the Torah is from G-D or you don't.

If you do, than you can't pick, choose, and change the laws that you don't like.

If you don't, than it's a completely different belief system than actual judaisam, and there is little in common to discuss.

You do know that only orthodox Jews believe the Torah is straight from God and hasn't been "tampered" with in any way, right?

And you do know that orthodox Jews only consist of about 25% of all Jews, right?

How can you say that 75% of Jews are believing something that is completely different than actual Judaism? What gives you the right to state that yours is the only true version of Judaism?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Fundamentalism is generally quite coherent, as is the opposite. However, I see no reason to reject a more complex approach merely because it does not fit into a dualistic, black/white-yes/no mold.
I reject it neither because of its complexity or its failure to fit. I reject it because its incoherent and circular.

The Rabbinic tradition makes it clear that Torah is the place where God and the Jewish People come together. As the proverb mentioned in the Zohar synthesizes it, Yisrael v'Orayta v'Kudsha Brich Hu chad hu (Israel, Torah, and the Holy One Blessed Be He are One).
And that rabbinic tradition is fully predicated upon the presumption of holy writ.

Moreover, part of the integral structure of Rabbinic exegesis are the presumptions that Torah is holy, is eternal, is of infinite potentiality of meaning, and that every bit of Torah must mean something significant and productive.
Not "moreover" but "consequently."

Personally, if Torah is an entirely human enterprise, I fail to see how it can be the place where God and Israel come together, and I fail to see how it can be holy, or eternal, or hold infinite potentiality of meaning. Therefore, I see no reason to believe Torah is an entirely human enterprise.
You continue to play disingenuous word games. What, precisely, is meant by "no reason to believe Torah is an entirely human enterprise"?
  • Is it a partially human enterprise? If so, which parts? What about Berei**** 1:20-25?
  • Or, is it an entirely preternatural enterprise? If so, do you side with Torah and against scientific consensus when it comes to Berei**** 1:20-25?
Are you even willing to directly and unambiguously answer such questions? You've certainly shown no willingness to do so thus far.

As an aside …
However, if Torah-- even just Torah shebichtav--
Levite, your expositions are not rendered more valid by peppering them with such terms. Let me replace the term with something all might understand …​

However, if Torah-- even just [the written Torah - JS] -- is entirely the literal dictated word of God, of which each part in all its facets must be accepted completely as Divine, then there is a different problem, as there are several places where the pshat of the text is practically, ethically, or morally insupportable, and the tradition we have from Our Rabbis drashing those verses have not offered helpful reinterpretation or helpful practical reworking of the problematic meanings. And I cannot see believing in a God who said those things and intended them to be taken completely and literally as they are.
Therefore, perhaps the written Torah is not "entirely the literal dictated word of God, of which each part in all its facets must be accepted completely as Divine". Yes?

Therefore, it seems to me that the point of Torah being the place of coming together of God and Israel, the way in which we, God, and Torah are One, is that Torah is a cooperative enterprise. That Torah shebichtav is the work of prophets, who received divine revelations, and did their best as fallible mortal men to set them forth as best they could; and that Torah sheb'al peh is the work of wise men and women who are not prophets, but who have authority to interpret Torah shebichtav for purposes of both halachah and aggadah.
So, to be clear, you are suggesting that God revealed the content the written Torah to fallible prophets who, in some cases, erred in rendering the text. Put differently: Berei**** 1:20-25 got it wrong. But if this is the case, what use is PaRDeS applied to these verses? Is it not folly to insist on divining hidden meaning from a simple mistake? Is it really so hard to simple acknowledge the error?


And that when we have a particular facet of the text-- be it pshat, or some traditionally received remez, drash, or sohd reading-- that is absolutely unworkable and insupportable in practice, no matter which way it is turned, then it stands to reason that the applied facet of the text must be one of the others. Which of the others may be a matter for debate, but that it is one of the others seems to me the only reasonable conclusion.
No, it does not "stand to reason." It could simply be that the text is in error and reflects the ignorance and/or backwardness of its author.

Yes, this way of looking at Torah is complex and requires considerable effort of debate, discussion, and study. It will not fit neatly into either the Orthodox box or the classical Reform/Reconstructionist boxes. But it doesn't have to.
A better term might be torturous. You struggle to apply PaRDeS because you insist that PaRDeS must be applicable even in the case of fallible text. It's a circular dance that cannot help but become difficult and exhausting.

< ---- break ---- >​

But you are certainly far more adept than I when it comes to PaRDeS, so I invite you to explain the plain and inner meaning of Berei**** 1:20-25.
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
I agree, although I would suggest that the phrase "and his whims" is prejudicial and wholly unfair. I would no more consider the Torah to be the product of human whim than I would consider Rambam's Guide for the Perplexed or Heschel's Heavenly Torah to be products of human whim.
Whim was the wrong word to use. For that I apologize.

Let's assume for the sake of discussion that (a) the general sequence proposed by science is correct, and (b) that it differs from the pshat of Berei**** 1:20-25. Can you imagine a purpose that would require or otherwise lead HaShem to describe an inaccurate sequence?
I don't purport myself to be so skilled in the methods of PaRDeS as to be able to expound these particular verses in a way that would be considered even remotely satisfactory. However, as I understand it the point of the creation narrative is not necessarily to provide a detailed description of our origin but to properly frame/contextualize the rest of the Torah's content.

That being said, the particular description given, while scientifically inaccurate, provides us with information about how we should view the place of things in this existence.

So, to be clear, you are suggesting that God revealed the content the written Torah to fallible prophets who, in some cases, erred in rendering the text. Put differently: Berei**** 1:20-25 got it wrong. But if this is the case, what use is PaRDeS applied to these verses? Is it not folly to insist on divining hidden meaning from a simple mistake? Is it really so hard to simple acknowledge the error?

Has anyone in this thread, at any point, been reluctant to admit that the verses are not scientifically accurate?

Be clear about what is being acknowledged, we're not "simply acknowledging an error" but correctly stating that a book, which does not have as its goal scientific exposition, does not get all the facts scientifically correct. The admission is relevant only if you're having a scientific discussion on creation.

As someone who sees the Torah as the result of divine authorship, I can acknowledge that there are parts of it that will be scientifically incorrect when taken at face value, but I don't believe the author wrote the book to be taken in pieces at face value. It is a text, which has been littered with purposefully intended complexity, to be studied as a whole, and was written so that humanity might from it come to understand how it should relate to its Creator and also to one another.


Thus, given the goal of the book, when we encounter something within it that causes us confusion given its apparent contradiction with what we know from other sources, we must assume that there is some behavioral lesson we can learn from knowing the difference or, at the very least, in exploring the possible explanations for the incongruence.

That's a correct that there needs to be a court system.

If your ox gores my land, they need to figure out who is at fault and the damages.

All cases are somewhat different however Torah law is applied.

We have a penal and civil code. However, we also have a court system to apply it.

Suppose I accept your claim that the explanation of Devarim 17 is that it refers to a court system. Laws may be written, but courts have the authority to interpret them in such a way as to render their practical application wholly different from the plain meaning of the law. The Jewish legal system is no different.
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Whim was the wrong word to use. For that I apologize.
Thanks.

I don't purport myself to be so skilled in the methods of PaRDeS as to be able to expound these particular verses in a way that would be considered even remotely satisfactory. However, as I understand it the point of the creation narrative is not necessarily to provide a detailed description of our origin but to properly frame/contextualize the rest of the Torah's content.
But is this not simply deflection and rationalization? The opening chapter of Torah proceeds to detail our origin - day by day - and you, no doubt driven by defects in the narrative, choose to assume that the point of this detailed creation narrative was not to provide a detailed creation narrative and, therefore, the defects don't really matter.

What bothers me most about this approach is that it flies in the face of rabbinic tradition. Look:
Pardes refers to (types of) approaches to biblical exegesis in rabbinic Judaism (or - simpler - interpretation of text in Torah study). The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of the following four approaches:
  • Peshat (&#1508;&#1456;&#1468;&#1513;&#1464;&#1473;&#1496;) — "plain" ("simple") or the direct meaning.[1]
  • Remez (&#1512;&#1462;&#1502;&#1462;&#1494;) — "hints" or the deep (allegoric: hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
  • Derash (&#1491;&#1456;&#1468;&#1512;&#1463;&#1513;&#1473;) — from Hebrew darash: "inquire" ("seek") — the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
  • Sod (&#1505;&#1493;&#1465;&#1491;) (pronounced with a long O as in 'bone') — "secret" ("mystery") or the esoteric/mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.
Each type of Pardes interpretation examines the extended meaning of a text. As a general rule, the extended meaning never contradicts the base meaning. The Peshat means the plain or contextual meaning of the text. Remez is the allegorical meaning. Derash includes the metaphorical meaning, and Sod represents the hidden meaning. There is often considerable overlap, for example when legal understandings of a verse are influenced by mystical interpretations or when a "hint" is determined by comparing a word with other instances of the same word. [source]
For centuries our greatest sages struggled with every word of Torah, teasing multiple meanings out of every nuance and every anomaly. They transcended context proclaiming that there is neither before nor after in Torah and freely used bits and pieces from one place in the Tanakh as proof-text to explicated far removed bits and pieces of scripture. They massaged the vowels and played with numerical values. No piece of text was off limits. No piece of text was deemed unworthy of examination. No piece of text was simple dismissed as not reflecting the point of the narrative as a whole.

That being said, the particular description given, while scientifically inaccurate, provides us with information about how we should view the place of things in this existence.
And that being said, the particular description given, while providing us with information about how we should view the place of things in this existence, is scientifically inaccurate. What shall we make of this? What are it's consequences?

Can you imagine HaShem getting it wrong? Certainly God could have done a much better job. So, unless you have a better explanation, let's assume that the inaccuracy reflects human error. But if so, if we admit human authorship, why should we expect that every phrase, every word, every letter of this text to fruitfully lend itself to PaRDeS?

How can you possibly maintain that PaRDeS stands unaffected in the face of text which displays signs of fallible human authorship

Has anyone in this thread, at any point, been reluctant to admit that the verses are not scientifically accurate?
Seriously?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It appears that they follow the laws that the like, and they ignore and/or change the laws that they don't like.

It's intellectual dishonesty.

It think "dishonesty" is too strong a word for this pickle, and maybe "confusion" would be a more accurate way of saying this. As one who struggled with this in the past, I know just how confusing this can be.

OTOH, neither can I accept the literalistic approach either as I don't believe that's justifiable under the evidence. There are a great many "variations" found on the same narratives throughout scripture, therefore there's more than sufficient evidence to me to rule out "inerrancy". And if I rule out "inerrancy", then how could I justify complete "divine inspiration" of the scriptures?

OTOH, the concept that people may have been divinely inspired to write about their faith, that makes more sense to me, but I still don't know if it is at all correct. How could I possibly know if it is or isn't? Why must I believe one way or another without evidence?

So, for me, Joseph Campbell's approach makes the most sense: treat all scriptures as allegory, pulling out the morals and values taught within, and then use what is usable and generally "moral". It's an imprecise art, but then Judaism in general, regardless as to the branch one may be in, is an imprecise art.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You don't know if 1:20-25 is correct?

Ah, but if one takes the allegorical approach then whether something is "right" is not as important as what can I derive from it? Is that narrative literally correct? I have no clue. Do I accept it's basic premise that God created all? Again, there's no way for me to tell if even that is correct. So,...

my cop-out position is "Whatever created our universe/mutlverse I'll call 'God', and pretty much leave it at that"-- the epitome of the "I don't know" approach. :D

BTW, my experience that amongst anthropologists is that my position is not at all unusual. If one studies multitudes of cultures along with their religions (religion is one of the "five basic institutions" all known societies have had), the word "certainty" gets lost in the shuffle, and the "my religion is right and all others are dung" approach becomes quite untenable.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Ah, but if one takes the allegorical approach then whether something is "right" is not as important as what can I derive from it?
If you can derive from what is and isn't correct an awareness of the divinity or fallibility of the author(s) I would think that you've derived something of more than a little import.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
If you can derive from what is and isn't correct an awareness of the divinity or fallibility of the author(s) I would think that you've derived something of more than a little import.

But what is one to make of it if they can do neither? Some may say that "I don't know" is a weakness, but in science it's not considered as such. Why formulate a belief if the evidence is insufficient?
 
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