Paradise is the Messianic age, not Heaven

[SethZaddik]

Having just re-read the Quran, currently in shock that Muslims have completely ruined the concepts within it.

68:17 Indeed, We have tried them as We tried the companions of the garden, when they swore to cut its fruit in the [early] morning.

First off, the Garden/Paradise is referring to here, as being the Garden of Eden.... This is clearly not referring to Heaven.

11:108 And as to those who are made happy, they shall be in the garden, abiding in it as long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; a gift which shall never be cut off.

7:40 Indeed, those who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - the gates of Heaven will not be opened for them, nor will they enter Paradise until a camel enters into the eye of a needle. And thus do We recompense the criminals.

57:21 Race toward forgiveness from your Lord and a Garden whose width is like the width of the heavens and earth, prepared for those who believed in Allah and His messengers. That is the bounty of Allah which He gives to whom He wills, and Allah is the possessor of great bounty.

These three Surahs show that Heaven, and Paradise exist as separate references within the Quran.

The word for Heaven is the same as in many languages a word meaning sky, and Heaven in one.

Paradise is the same concept as the Messianic age/Satya yuga... That there will be a new creation, and those who are deemed worthy shall inherit it.

So all these concepts of drinking in heaven, virgins, mansions, and all the other materialistic things ascribed to it, are talking about us returning to a new earth.

The Quran is supposed to be a reiteration of what was sent before it, so if any Muslims had bothered to study all the other messengers this should be obvious; yet instead it has become a mockery and a joke to many, due to ascribing earthly things to Heaven, which is a place beyond the dimensions without form, a place of pure consciousness.

I can refute your claim with ease.

Paradise hasn't a thing to do with the "Messianic age" that nobody knows when will occur and it is not even difficult to prove.

2:82 But, for those who believe and do works of Righteousness, it is they who are the owners of Paradise, therein they shall abide forever.

The Messianic age is an on earth age, and has time limits according to what Paulines believe.

Paradise is forever and in the next life, as I will show you.

2:221 It is they [idolatresses] who invite you to the Fire [hell], but God calls to the Paradise [Heaven] and to the protection by His command. He makes His revelations clear for the people so they will listen.

3:142 Do you suppose that you would enter Paradise while Allah has not yet distinguished between those of you who strive hard (to please Allah) and has yet to distinguish the patiently preservers have?

Now, if Paradise actually was (as absurd as the notion is) the "Messianic age" we don't have any reason to be called to it, it will come to earth. We don't enter into an age physically, the age comes upon us.

And there is the simplest fact of all. The opposite of Paradise is Fire, hell, which by the rules of common sense and logic makes it Heaven.

Paradise is a place for all People of the Book, Christian, Jewish or Sabaeans, (Parsees too, Zoroaster is a Muslim Prophet PBUH), it is Heaven just as Gehenom/Gehenna is your Hell and the Greeks Hades that you call it.

Paradise is a Garden like Edin, where you will have ONE suitable mate for all eternity (not 72), not a temporary state and not on earth.

Sorry, you just don't have the knowledge necessary to comprehend the Qur'an, which is why it doesn't make sense to you. Not that it is difficult but true knowledge comes with a pure heart, not one of irrelevant contention.

 

[SethZaddik]

The problem arises from the translation of Arabic text. I myself used to be mix between Heaven and Paradise.
In general, I'm against translation of names. When a name is used in Christian world by religion or culture, the person recalls whatever in his mind/belief/knowledge which in some cases is totally different from Islamic definition.
Also, some Muslims unfortunately tries to bridge the gaps between Islam from one side and Judaism and Christianity from the other side. Then they fall in severe mistakes.

For example Allah shouldn't be translated by any mean to God.

Let us define the garden, Heaven, Paradise, and Messianic era in short:

• garden حديقة :
  • It's any field planted with fruits
  • It's physically exist in life
• Heaven/sky السماء plural السموات:
  • There are 7 heavens
  • Stars, planets,,, are in the first Heaven/sky. All seen universe is in the first heaven/sky
    
  • Rest of heavens are full of angels
  • It's false to translate to Paradise
• Messianic era الخلافة الكبرى
  • Al-Masseh will come to earth again from Heaven/Sky
  • He'll lead believers in big wars to fight the False-Masseh, Gog-Mogog,,,,
  • There will be believers only on earth, others will die
  • The earth will give it's best
  • It's not eternal
    
  • The prosperity and wealth will be on whole earth for many years
  • After sometime, people will turn to Pagan again
  • Allah will end the life on earth, all people will die
    
  • Judge date will happen
  • Allah will create another big flat earth for Judge
  • Allah will call all dead people and genies since Adam
    
  • The sun will be very near from heads
• Paradise جنة plural جنات
  • Adam and Hawaa were there before they ate from the forbidden tree
  • Life there is eternal, none will die, no worshiping
    
  • Good people only who believe in Oneness and followed the true prophet of their era
  • It's not in universe
  • It's false to translate it to Garden

Regards

I don't see anything I disagree with here, why would I, we are brethren?

But Allah is Arabic for [the] God and is of no matter to translate. It's still Allah, even Christians call Allah, Allah in Arabic

 

[SethZaddik]

It isn't my Bible...I study all religions.

That is rubbish, the last thread was about correcting understanding, to point to true Islam in the Quran, and not this corrupted fake separatist religion people have made up.

Having read many of the religions globally, can show what is going to happen...

Within countless NDEs, and explanations of Heaven, the descriptions assigned to Heaven by Muslims are referring to the Messianic age...

Heaven has no form, and thus many of the conclusions made by Muslims defile what the Quran has put.

So when the Quran is a reiteration of what has been sent before it, you can say it is wrong, and it doesn't fit with all the other messengers or recognize the mistake that has been made.

No need to shoot the messenger for trying to help.

P.s.

Agreed Paul is a fake apostle, Simon was called a stone (petros) as he would mislead everyone, and the Gospel of John is made up....Yet this isn't what the thread is about.

Boy are you confused.

The only false apostle is Paul, not one of the 12 and didn't know Jesus, made up lies,etc.

The rest are good to go, except, depending on your views, Judas, who some say with accuracy he was TOLD to betray Jesus PBUH, possessed by Satan, and had little choice.

Other than that, what I said is not rubbish and what you are doing is NOT studying religion. It's reading to ultimately criticize with falsehood about Paradise being what you think it is, sans valid reasons.

As I effortlessly proved beyond doubt, reasonable or otherwise.

 

[SethZaddik]

It isn't my Bible...I study all religions.

That is rubbish, the last thread was about correcting understanding, to point to true Islam in the Quran, and not this corrupted fake separatist religion people have made up.

Having read many of the religions globally, can show what is going to happen...

Within countless NDEs, and explanations of Heaven, the descriptions assigned to Heaven by Muslims are referring to the Messianic age...

Heaven has no form, and thus many of the conclusions made by Muslims defile what the Quran has put.

So when the Quran is a reiteration of what has been sent before it, you can say it is wrong, and it doesn't fit with all the other messengers or recognize the mistake that has been made.

No need to shoot the messenger for trying to help.

P.s.

Agreed Paul is a fake apostle, Simon was called a stone (petros) as he would mislead everyone, and the Gospel of John is made up....Yet this isn't what the thread is about.

You are nobody to tell anyone what is or isn't true Islam, which certainly is not corrupt, fake or separatist, that is an ignorant opinion from a non Muslim who couldn't possibly know this if it were true because you are not a Muslim and have no experience with living as a Muslim.

I do, and I think your ignorance is appalling, your insults pedestrian and your interpretations plain lies.

 

[wizanda]

Boy are you confused.

Your manners are appalling, kindly stop speaking for me, without any knowledge of who i am.

The opposite of Paradise is Fire, hell, which by the rules of common sense and logic makes it Heaven.

OK this seems where some of the faulty conclusions might start to exist....

You see when you examine all the texts globally, there will first be a Tribulation, where at its finale God comes here, and then by the fire of God's majesty, those who are impure are washed by the holy fire of God's presence.

Having been to Hell, there isn't any fire down there; unless it is in lower levels than I've been to (Tartarus).

Paradise hasn't a thing to do with the "Messianic age"

What do you think the Messianic age is?

the "Messianic age" we don't have any reason to be called to it

Of course we do, only the righteous will remain in an age of Godliness, where everyone shall be like angels, where we no longer age.

 

[SethZaddik]

Your manners are appalling, kindly stop speaking for me, without any knowledge of who i am.

OK this seems where some of the faulty conclusions might start to exist....

You see when you examine all the texts globally, there will first be a Tribulation, where at its finale God comes here, and then by the fire of God's majesty, those who are impure are washed by the holy fire of God's presence.

Having been to Hell, there isn't any fire down there; unless it is in lower levels than I've been to (Tartarus).

What do you think the Messianic age is?

Of course we do, only the righteous will remain in an age of Godliness, where everyone shall be like angels, where we no longer age.

The only "faulty conclusions" here are from you yourself, nobody else is struggling with the difference between the Messianic age and Heaven/Paradise.

Tartarus is from Greek and corresponds to Sheol.

Gehenom is hell in Zohar and the Qur'an.

Paradise is Heaven, also, in both.

PRDS is a four layered system of interpretation used by the Rabbis to interpret the OT and Paradise is Edin as they understand it.

Returning to Paradise/Heaven IS returning to our previous state of living forever, and is A Garden with fruit and everything in the Qur'an, just like Edin.

Heaven is Paradise is Edin, it is not that Paradise is a mistranslation that should be Garden though, that is how Paradise, the Hereafter or Afterlife of the Righteous is described in the Qur'an and you also get A wife or husband, which is not to contradict the statement of Jesus PBUH that there is no marriage, you don't NEED marriage because in Paradise you begin with a wife so it is not like you have a wedding, it's a suitable companion for all Eternity.

Even Angels have taken companions, probably have them in Heaven, which would explain the desire of the Sons of Elohim, the Irim or Igrigori, Watchers of old. Nimrod was half angel descended as a Rephaim, like the Anakim also, giants descended from the Watchers and the Nephilim

 

[SethZaddik]

Your manners are appalling, kindly stop speaking for me, without any knowledge of who i am.

OK this seems where some of the faulty conclusions might start to exist....

You see when you examine all the texts globally, there will first be a Tribulation, where at its finale God comes here, and then by the fire of God's majesty, those who are impure are washed by the holy fire of God's presence.

Having been to Hell, there isn't any fire down there; unless it is in lower levels than I've been to (Tartarus).

What do you think the Messianic age is?

Of course we do, only the righteous will remain in an age of Godliness, where everyone shall be like angels, where we no longer age.

It is unfortunate that you find the truth appalling, not surprising though.

 

[SethZaddik]

Having just re-read the Quran, currently in shock that Muslims have completely ruined the concepts within it.

68:17 Indeed, We have tried them as We tried the companions of the garden, when they swore to cut its fruit in the [early] morning.

First off, the Garden/Paradise is referring to here, as being the Garden of Eden.... This is clearly not referring to Heaven.

11:108 And as to those who are made happy, they shall be in the garden, abiding in it as long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; a gift which shall never be cut off.

7:40 Indeed, those who deny Our verses and are arrogant toward them - the gates of Heaven will not be opened for them, nor will they enter Paradise until a camel enters into the eye of a needle. And thus do We recompense the criminals.

57:21 Race toward forgiveness from your Lord and a Garden whose width is like the width of the heavens and earth, prepared for those who believed in Allah and His messengers. That is the bounty of Allah which He gives to whom He wills, and Allah is the possessor of great bounty.

These three Surahs show that Heaven, and Paradise exist as separate references within the Quran.

The word for Heaven is the same as in many languages a word meaning sky, and Heaven in one.

Paradise is the same concept as the Messianic age/Satya yuga... That there will be a new creation, and those who are deemed worthy shall inherit it.

So all these concepts of drinking in heaven, virgins, mansions, and all the other materialistic things ascribed to it, are talking about us returning to a new earth.

The Quran is supposed to be a reiteration of what was sent before it, so if any Muslims had bothered to study all the other messengers this should be obvious; yet instead it has become a mockery and a joke to many, due to ascribing earthly things to Heaven, which is a place beyond the dimensions without form, a place of pure consciousness.

You say you find my words appalling but I have not spoken falsley about a thing.

You are, not just here but in a different thread I mentioned the Talmud and Zohar, books of Sacred Scripture to the Jews to varying degrees and differing opinions but nevertheless there are more Jews who believe the Talmud to be Divinely inspired Law and a growing amount Zohar, than there are who don't, even if they read them or not or are scholars...

You are making disparaging remarks about the literature of a proud religion that has endured hell and lived to tell about it, better, stronger.

And I mean Jews AND Muslims, you are not paying any respect to Muslims by crossing out the word as you writet it or claiming that what the Qur'an says is something other than that which it honestly says, denying what it itself SAYS about Paradise and claiming you know better, it's the "Messianic age" and Muslims who reject other faiths literature as relevant to their life and believe (know) them to have been falsified, a provable facts that not many people outside of fundies deny, (it was written from 600BC forward according to Jewish authorities themselves so anything relating to before 600 BC pre and in Babylon was falsley attributed to. Not Daniel or Isaiah or Ezekiel or Moses, anyone prior to the Persian period regarding chronology, is pseudepigraphal.
Falsley attributed to).

And you want to be the decider of "true Islam" with your pitifully thought out demands on other religions.

Why accept falsified scripture? Who the Gehenom is ever going to listen to you besides, sadly, me?

Listen does NOT MEAN TAKE SERIOUSLY.

 

[wizanda]

You say you find my words appalling

Was saying your manners are appalling, you're being extremely rude as a person making lots of assumptions about me, without knowing where I'm coming from.

Tartarus is from Greek and corresponds to Sheol.

Tartarus is a place below Hades, which is a burning inferno...

Whereas Hades is a dark shadowy place of lost souls, which is why it became the word Hel from the Germanic, as it is a similar place (no fire).

Sheol (grave) is death, and originally wasn't ascribed as Hell.

Gehenom is hell in Zohar and the Qur'an.

Now I'm interested learning more on how this all came about; as you realize Gehenna was a giant rubbish dump below Jerusalem that was set ablaze, and where Jeremiah says they burnt children, and Yeshua hints the lame were burnt there...

Maybe it was to save on the costs of their graves; yet still shouldn't have happened.

PRDS is a four layered system of interpretation used by the Rabbis to interpret the OT and Paradise is Edin as they understand it.

Returning to Paradise/Heaven IS returning to our previous state of living forever, and is A Garden with fruit and everything in the Qur'an, just like Edin.

Yes, and this is called the Messianic age in the Rabbinic texts.

you are not paying any respect to Muslims by crossing out the word

Question this the opposite way around:

When you read what i put carefully...

It was speaking negatively about people who whilst claiming to follow the Quran, are in fact extreme hypocrites; thus justifiably in respect for the word Muslim meaning, 'someone who submits to the peace of knowing the One true God', i wouldn't defame it by including it in a negative contexts.

And you want to be the decider of "true Islam" with your pitifully thought out demands on other religions.

Only God can be decider on true Islam, the rest of us are here struggling to decipher meanings; so me offering my opinion to a mixing pot of multiple scholars opinions, is just as valid.

As for true Islam, since not read the Hadiths, got a massive view different to many Muslims.

Peace B with U

 

[SethZaddik]

Was saying your manners are appalling, you're being extremely rude as a person making lots of assumptions about me, without knowing where I'm coming from.

I don't need to know where you are coming from to know what you are saying is incorrect (regarding Paradise being the Messianic age) and disrespectful (writing Muslim and crossing it out as a symbolic gesture that you have declared them not Muslims) or that you are making ridiculous demands on Muslims to conform to other peoples religous literature and acknowledge it as if it is on par with the Qur'an, which is not dependent on any book and only discusses a few Prophets because they are relevant to the culture and time in which it was spoken, doesn't seek to discredit them but acknowledges they have been tampered with and fought over and is a fresh start, so to speak, as well as the final Prophetic Revelation of the God of Moses, Jesus PBUT, and the correct religion of these Prophets without the falsified books. Islam was even cognizant that Paul was a false prophet which is just one example of evidence that it is the legitimate tradition going back to James and the Apostles, but corrupted by Paul. Paul is the only (accepted by Christianity as) "prophet" who is not given the honor by Muslims. Zoroaster is a Prophet PBUH accepted by Islam, not Saul!

Regarding Tartarus, the abode of the Watchers of Enoch until Judgement Day, it is called Tartarus in Greek, which is borrowing from Greek mythology and not Hebrew or Semitic in any way. It is just how they translated "Sheol."

Gehenom or Gehenna is both a geographical location and a name for the Fire of hell, in the Zohar and the Qur'an, as I said. I don't know what else you need to know about it but I can assure you that "Tartarus" and "Hades" are from Greek mythology, not Jewish. It is a substitution for the word, not the Greek Tartarus or Hades.

Tartarus is a place below Hades, which is a burning inferno...

Whereas Hades is a dark shadowy place of lost souls, which is why it became the word Hel from the Germanic, as it is a similar place (no fire).

Sheol (grave) is death, and originally wasn't ascribed as Hell.

Now I'm interested learning more on how this all came about; as you realize Gehenna was a giant rubbish dump below Jerusalem that was set ablaze, and where Jeremiah says they burnt children, and Yeshua hints the lame were burnt there...

Maybe it was to save on the costs of their graves; yet still shouldn't have happened.

Yes, and this is called the Messianic age in the Rabbinic texts.

Question this the opposite way around:

When you read what i put carefully...

It was speaking negatively about people who whilst claiming to follow the Quran, are in fact extreme hypocrites; thus justifiably in respect for the word Muslim meaning, 'someone who submits to the peace of knowing the One true God', i wouldn't defame it by including it in a negative contexts.

Do you know them personally? If not you know my next question, what makes you think you can judge from afar, you don't know who you are actually talking about, hypothetical people don't actually matter, real people do and need to be known to be judged and then still not by your opinions. If one does the five Pillars, one is technically a Muslim if they believe it, you need to find more forgiveness in your heart because you are judging hypothetical people by invalid standards based on misguided opinions.

Only God can be decider on true Islam, the rest of us are here struggling to decipher meanings; so me offering my opinion to a mixing pot of multiple scholars opinions, is just as valid.

As for true Islam, since not read the Hadiths, got a massive view different to many Muslims.

Peace B with U

Do you mean to say that you are not familiar with the Hadiths and the lack of information actively forms your view, which is different than many Muslims?

OK, first, reading is how you aquire knowledge and if you don't read Hadiths your views are not formed by them but at best what you heard about them, which I assure you is nothing dangerous or evil and is quite entertaining and informative regarding the words spoken by the Prophet PBUH Mohammed, mystical tales about early Islam and an important part of understanding the Qur'an, Islam and the main source of quotes attributed to the Prophet PBUH.

I also have Al-Ghazali who wrote 40 books on Religous Science and he has many Sunnahs that you won't find in Hadiths.

Islam is the Miracle produced by the Qur'an, proof that it is a Miracle is the unequalled in history rise of Islam, larger than the entire Roman Empire at its and Islam's respective peaks.

Unlike the Romans the Arabs and Persians and Muslims of the Islamic Empire lived in an earthly paradise and embraced the sciences inventing basically the modern scientific method, chemistry, and learned also by translating Greek texts of science and philosophy and making them reality.

Europe, by comparison, was a literal dump, filthy, poor, uneducated and sick. They had ridiculed science and philosophy and knowledge of any kind and it would not be until the Muslims taught them science that the Intellectual Renaissance would take place, making Islam the actual cause and source of it.

They had seen the paradise built in the desert and from Africa and Spain to China and India in size, where Jews and Christians and Muslims all lived together peacefully with respect for each other.

They were not trying to allow that.

If you actually knew the life story of the Prophet PBUH, you would be awe struck, literally one of the most powerful men in history and he never assumed the title of King or Caesar or acted like the degenerate leaders of today, he was as powerful as a King but certainly more humble and generous than any who ever called themselves that.

It's not unknown in the West, just hushed. The amount of white Americans and Europeans who praise the life of Mohammed, prominent famous scholars, is staggering.

Just go to Jews for Allah.com

"The idea that Islam was spread by the sword is one of the tragic assumptions of history and far from the truth..."

Is my favorite. I don't remember who, doesn't matter. It's true is what matters.