Pakistan wants "Freedom to Kill Freedom of Speech" in name of "Freedom of Religion"

[Nanda 160892]

I do not honestly think people who openly declare a "harmless" event of "drawing Muhammad" have totally "pure and harmless" intentions. Like, they surely know that drawing the face of the prophet is prohibited in Islam yet they disrespect other people's religion by nosing into other people's business and they surely know that it will get nasty reaction from the Muslims yet they still keep going for it for the purpose of "having a reason to act like a victim". Like, duh, that plan is too obvious.

Freedom of speech is not meant to disrupt other people's balance (and religion, on this matter).

Otherwise, even the jocks and bullies will keep threatening and verbally harassing their preys by chanting: "WE ARE DOING FREEDOM OF SPEECH!"

Pakistan may not be the sweetest sugar for you, but so are the (non-Muslim) people who start a "drawing Muhammad" contest.

Like, haven't we gone through this before?

 

[LuisDantas]

We have been through this before. And that has been plenty enough already.

 

[Spiderman]

I do not honestly think people who openly declare a "harmless" event of "drawing Muhammad" have totally "pure and harmless" intentions. Like, they surely know that drawing the face of the prophet is prohibited in Islam yet they disrespect other people's religion by nosing into other people's business and they surely know that it will get nasty reaction from the Muslims yet they still keep going for it for the purpose of "having a reason to act like a victim". Like, duh, that plan is too obvious.

Freedom of speech is not meant to disrupt other people's balance (and religion, on this matter).

Otherwise, even the jocks and bullies will keep threatening and verbally harassing their preys by chanting: "WE ARE DOING FREEDOM OF SPEECH!"

Pakistan may not be the sweetest sugar for you, but so are the (non-Muslim) people who start a "drawing Muhammad" contest.

Like, haven't we gone through this before?

Actually, They are promoting free speech.

Yes, they know they are ticking Muslims off, but they are essentially telling the Muslims to grow up, quit being big wimpy babies, and recognize that a cartoon is simply a cartoon.

If Muslims cannot handle a cartoon or unveiled women, they should not be living in the Free World.

I consider the Charlie hebdo victims to be martyrs for free speech.

Once Muhammad cartoons are not allowed anymore, Europe will become more and more like Lebanon.

Better to just encourage the radicals to move to a radical country.

We do not want them in the Free World. They prefer to live in a dark age theocracy where freedom of speech is outlawed.

The Muslims that we want in the Free World, are the down-to-earth Muslims who recognize that a cartoon or unveiled woman is not hurting anyone.

We want Muslims who have gotten with the 21st century, and prefer democracy over dark aged Sharia and theocracy.

what you are suggesting is that women should wear veils over their head, because many Muslims come from countries where they only see women in burkas. Many Muslims find an unveiled woman to be a serious crime and asking to be raped.

Is a woman who wears her head uncovered asking to be a victim too? Should they cover their head for fear of offending Muslims? How about Muslims get a 21st century life and stop taking offense at everything.

If Allah has a problem with it, let allah do the Killing.

 

[exchemist]

Pakistan forced Geert Wilders to cancel Muhammad Cartoon Contest by "murder threat"

1 Amsterdam Imaam called to protect Geert Wilders, but Muslim organisation CMO did not agree (spoiler 6)

Personally I think Freedom of Speech should not be used to irritate on purpose. But the issue here is 10.000 Muslims so full of hate that they don't see that using an "atom bomb" is overkill to express their unhappiness with a "relatively harmless drawing of Muhammad".

In Pakistan 10.000 protested [maybe 1% of the 1 million total who agree]. Is it still terrorists only?
Pakistan Leader tells the world "If I had an atom bomb I would remove Holland from the earth" [spoiler 9)].
I never hear 10.000 protest against these kind of things in the Islam/Koran; of course extremist protest more.

What do you think about Freedom of Speech? [A few questions come to mind]:
a) Is Freedom of Speech okay when it offends Muslims as in this case "Muhammad Cartoon Contest"?
b) Is Freedom of Speech still okay when it evokes "murder threats"? [compare with US man in spoiler 3)]
c) Is it "responsible act of the West" to allow blasphemy[Koran] leading to "murder threats" by Muslims?
d) Is it correct that G.Wilders stopped Contest? Should we change this Law or obey to demands "terrorists"?
e) Should Freedom of Speech/Religion be re-evaluated [Law + highest Imaam + Pope] before/after killings?
f) Are "murder threats" Pakistan acts of "terrorism"? How to solve this internationally? [see also spoiler 8)]
g) If 10.000 Pakistani join protest to "kill G.Wilders" is this still Islamists only?

h) Should Muslims have the right to impose their Sharia Law onto other countries (by threatening to kill)?
i) Should there be a kind of International Law forbidding Muslims to make these kinds of murder threats?
j) Should head of Imaams speak out against this kill threat [See below]? Say nothing conveys agreeing?

Most interesting argument IMO is made in number 6) below in spoiler [under the titel "Political gain"]
Political gain
The Contact Body Muslims and Government (CMO) does not call for the protection of Wilders. "That is the task of the authorities", says chairman Halil Karaaslan
[This Feels like "not taking responsibility for this horrible threat. We talk about "Muslim community in Pakistan ordering to murder Dutch politicians in cold blood because of a Drawing Context in Holland for God's sake". No Paris regrets nor internationally Muslim responsibility I see]

Spoiler: 5 Links about Pakistan vs Wilders on blasphemy Muhammad

1) Pakistani man arrested for threatening to kill dutch politcian Geert Wilders
Pakistani man arrested for threatening to kill Dutch politician visited anti-Israel event - Jewish Telegraphic Agency

2) Afghan taliban urges retaliation [10.000 protest. If this is 1% then 1 million think alike. Can't be terrorists only IMO]
Afghan Taliban Urges Retaliation for Planned Dutch Cartoon Contest

3) In US murder threat might cost you $250,000 fine + 5 year prison
US man 'threatened to shoot' reporters

4) Instead of admitting "Freedom to Kill against Freedom of Speech" is sick, they twist their real motives
Dutch cartoon contest and protests in Pakistan: All for show?

5) Because the lives of all Dutch people is in danger (threatened) Geert Wilders cancelled the contest.
Dutch anti-Islam lawmaker cancels Prophet cartoon contest

6) 1 Dutch Imaam (Amsterdam) asks Muslims to protect Geert Wilders
Google Translate

7) Paris Muslim shooting because of Muhammad cartoon context
Charlie Hebdo Shooting: 12 Killed at Muhammad Cartoons Magazine in Paris

8) Sick Pakistani reply on cancellation Cartoon constest [Islamists don't regret murder threat G.Wilder]
Pakistan Govt Celebrates Wilders Mohammed Cartoon Contest Cancellation

9) Dutch Pakistani kept quiet. Pakistan 10.000 protest. Leader "If atom bomb remove Holland from earth"]
Cartoon row sought to rile Dutch Muslims, but found only dignity

10) Was it wrong that G.Wilders was forced by "murder threat" Pakistan to stop the Cartoon Contest?
Geert Wilders is a bigot, but he should not have canceled his Prophet Mohammed cartoon event

I think you should spend your time instead worrying about the president of the US threatening to alter the search criteria on Google, to ensure he gets favourable coverage. The attacks on free speech are no longer confined to less modern cultures.

 

[stvdv]

Pakistan may not be the sweetest sugar for you, but so are the (non-Muslim) people who start a "drawing Muhammad" contest.

I wrote in the OP "Freedom of Speech" should not be used to irritate others.
I wrote in the OP "Relatively harmless" as in compared to "nuke holland" + "murder G.Wilders + all others who agree"
At least I recognize that "murder threat" over cartoon is wrong/overkill. I call this terrorism, imposing Islam on others. Sad to see that you don't acknowledge this as a Muslim.

Yes, they know they are ticking Muslims off, but they are essentially telling the Muslims to grow up, quit being big wimpy babies, and recognize that a cartoon is simply a cartoon.
If Muslims cannot handle a cartoon or unveiled women, they should not be living in the Free World.

Thank you PopeADope,
All your lines were exactly to the point. I could not have said it any better.

 

[stvdv]

I think you should spend your time instead worrying about the president of the US threatening to alter the search criteria on Google, to ensure he gets favourable coverage. The attacks on free speech are no longer confined to less modern cultures.

I stick to one topic at a time. This was about what happened in Holland. I leave US president and his "threats" for the Americans to highlight.

 

[Nanda 160892]

No, guys. You don't get the point. Drawing prophet Muhammad's face is not allowed in Islam. This does not have anything to do with "growing up". Cartoon is just a cartoon, yes, but that does not mean you have to reform other people's religion. It is like, you are changing a law in math just because you are PhD in Psychology.

And, if this is about Muslims immigrant annoying the hell out of the native citizens, I think you have to see both cases in separate manners. The Muslims may be guilty in the second case but in this drawing case, really, it has happened before. They know the drill. Why repeat the hell-hole?

Take this for example, cows are holy animals in Hinduism. Should a muslim person like me sacrifice a cow in front of the Hindus who happen to have migrated to my hometown and yell "Grow up, Hindus!" (well, I heard some Muslims actually did that but they have received their punishment) and even if I did such horrible thing, I shouldn't be surprised if my disgusting act got into the internet and all Hindu people miles away in India got mad at me and threaten me with murder. That will happen surely.

 

[LuisDantas]

No, guys. You don't get the point. Drawing prophet Muhammad's face is not allowed in Islam.

That is a good reason for Muslims not to do it. As a reason to entitle Muslims to decide what others can do it is considerably more lacking.

This does not have anything to do with "growing up". Cartoon is just a cartoon, yes, but that does not mean you have to reform other people's religion. It is like, you are changing a law in math just because you are PhD in Psychology.

A true religion is supposed to be capable of dealing with the real world without creating threats where none is needed.

Islaam's fear of the very idea of reform is a serious, self-imposed flaw. It is absurd to expect kuffar - actually, to expect anyone - to feel responsible for it.

Or to put it In another wording: Islaam better grow up already.

And, if this is about Muslims immigrant annoying the hell out of the native citizens, I think you have to see both cases in separate manners. The Muslims may be guilty in the second case but in this drawing case, really, it has happened before. They know the drill. Why repeat the hell-hole?

I am not sure of what you are talking about.

Take this for example, cows are holy animals in Hinduism. Should a muslim person like me sacrifice a cow in front of the Hindus who happen to have migrated to my hometown and yell "Grow up, Hindus!" (well, I heard some Muslims actually did that but they have received their punishment) and even if I did such horrible thing, I shouldn't be surprised if my disgusting act got into the internet and all Hindu people miles away in India got mad at me and threaten me with murder. That will happen surely.

So... you are claiming to be genuinely confused about the proper boundaries of offense and punishment, then?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I do not honestly think people who openly declare a "harmless" event of "drawing Muhammad" have totally "pure and harmless" intentions. Like, they surely know that drawing the face of the prophet is prohibited in Islam yet they disrespect other people's religion by nosing into other people's business and they surely know that it will get nasty reaction from the Muslims yet they still keep going for it for the purpose of "having a reason to act like a victim". Like, duh, that plan is too obvious.

Muslims aren't the only persecuted group. They aren't the only ones who have to tolerate blatant rudeness and offense. But out of all the persecuted groups, it consistently pumps out more violent radicals than any others. Atheists haven't resorted to beheadings. LBGT aren't blowing themselves up to kill others. Wiccans have not to my knowledge produced any terrorist groups or individuals.

No, guys. You don't get the point. Drawing prophet Muhammad's face is not allowed in Islam.

Then don't draw him since you're Muslim. Sharia doesn't apply to non-Muslims, and because we aren't Muslim, we aren't held to Muslim law, not according to Muslim or Secular law.

Take this for example, cows are holy animals in Hinduism. Should a muslim person like me sacrifice a cow in front of the Hindus who happen to have migrated to my hometown and yell "Grow up, Hindus!"

Muslims have been destroying Hindu shrines in India.

 

[Spiderman]

No, guys. You don't get the point. Drawing prophet Muhammad's face is not allowed in Islam. This does not have anything to do with "growing up". Cartoon is just a cartoon, yes, but that does not mean you have to reform other people's religion. It is like, you are changing a law in math just because you are PhD in Psychology.

And, if this is about Muslims immigrant annoying the hell out of the native citizens, I think you have to see both cases in separate manners. The Muslims may be guilty in the second case but in this drawing case, really, it has happened before. They know the drill. Why repeat the hell-hole?

Take this for example, cows are holy animals in Hinduism. Should a muslim person like me sacrifice a cow in front of the Hindus who happen to have migrated to my hometown and yell "Grow up, Hindus!" (well, I heard some Muslims actually did that but they have received their punishment) and even if I did such horrible thing, I shouldn't be surprised if my disgusting act got into the internet and all Hindu people miles away in India got mad at me and threaten me with murder. That will happen surely.

if it's part of Islam, show me where Muhammad ever forbid people to make cartoons of him?

The bottom line, Islam is a threat to the values that Europeans hold.

When it becomes illegal to make a cartoon, Europeans have compromised about a stupid dark aged policy that never was european culture.

Slaughtering a cow can be considered animal cruelty. slaughtering an animal that somebody holds sacred is wrong, because of the feelings of that animal as well as the person viewing it.

It is not just hurting the viewer.

It's nothing like making a cartoon. Also, I agree, those cartoons should not be thrown in the face of Muslims.

They should be shared with other people who value freedom of speech. If they are shared online, the Muslims should just put the person on ignore, or not visit the website.

Likewise, if a cow is slaughtered, it should not be done right in front of Hindus.

If a Hindu decides to watch a YouTube where a cow is slaughtered, that Hindu is making the wrong decision.

Muslims who want to kill over a cartoon seriously need to grow up and are big babies!

 

[Polymath257]

I do not honestly think people who openly declare a "harmless" event of "drawing Muhammad" have totally "pure and harmless" intentions. Like, they surely know that drawing the face of the prophet is prohibited in Islam yet they disrespect other people's religion by nosing into other people's business and they surely know that it will get nasty reaction from the Muslims yet they still keep going for it for the purpose of "having a reason to act like a victim". Like, duh, that plan is too obvious.

Freedom of speech is not meant to disrupt other people's balance (and religion, on this matter).

Otherwise, even the jocks and bullies will keep threatening and verbally harassing their preys by chanting: "WE ARE DOING FREEDOM OF SPEECH!"

Pakistan may not be the sweetest sugar for you, but so are the (non-Muslim) people who start a "drawing Muhammad" contest.

Like, haven't we gone through this before?

Again, anyone who is offended by cartoons of someone dead for centuries doesn't deserve to be respected. In western countries, we standardly portray Jesus in any number of way that are 'offensive' to believers. And they manage to tolerate such *because* they have learned the value of freedom of speech and of developing a thick skin when part of a diverse society.

So, yes, the cartoonists are, in fact, doing legitimate free speech. And those who send death threats to them are not. Those 'jocks and bullies' who verbally threaten are also NOT doing legitimate free speech. You see, free speech may be offensive to some, even many, but it does NOT threaten.

Yes, we have gone through this before. And those who over-react and issue threats will do so again. But my sympathies are with the artists and not with those who want conformity and restraints on speech like this.

 

[Spiderman]

Islam is actually a greater threat to what Europeans cherish than Mussolini's doctrine of fascism.

the Quran says "slay idolaters wherever you find them, do not take Jews and Christians as your friend", and that people like myself and lovers of Freedom should have their hands and feet cut off, should be crucified, and should have boiling water poured upon them.

People that make those cartoons, and discourage Muslims from coming to Europe, are doing Europe a much greater favor then the people that pretend Islam is a "religion of peace."

Barack Obama was a great enemy of the American people when he said, "we should not call Isis Islamic terrorists because they hijacked a religion of peace."

And the American people believed his utter stupidity and ignorance.

people who keep Muslims out of America and Europe, are the greatest friends of America, Europe, women's rights, and freedom!

 

[Spiderman]

Again, anyone who is offended by cartoons of someone dead for centuries doesn't deserve to be respected. In western countries, we standardly portray Jesus in any number of way that are 'offensive' to believers. And they manage to tolerate such *because* they have learned the value of freedom of speech and of developing a thick skin when part of a diverse society.

So, yes, the cartoonists are, in fact, doing legitimate free speech. And those who send death threats to them are not. Those 'jocks and bullies' who verbally threaten are also NOT doing legitimate free speech. You see, free speech may be offensive to some, even many, but it does NOT threaten.

Yes, we have gone through this before. And those who over-react and issue threats will do so again. But my sympathies are with the artists and not with those who want conformity and restraints on speech like this.

Well said, the people who have gotten with the 21st century do not want that dark aged Madness around them.

Jesus is portrayed many ways, and the Christians worthy of respect, will tolerate it without making threats or killing people.

Christians who would commit violence or threats over that, are not worthy of respect.

 

[Polymath257]

No, guys. You don't get the point. Drawing prophet Muhammad's face is not allowed in Islam. This does not have anything to do with "growing up". Cartoon is just a cartoon, yes, but that does not mean you have to reform other people's religion. It is like, you are changing a law in math just because you are PhD in Psychology.

So, if you are a muslim, don't draw a picture of him. It's that simple. But you don't get to dictate what *other* people can or cannot draw.

And, if this is about Muslims immigrant annoying the hell out of the native citizens, I think you have to see both cases in separate manners. The Muslims may be guilty in the second case but in this drawing case, really, it has happened before. They know the drill. Why repeat the hell-hole?

Exactly. Stop being so thin skinned that they react to a picture with a death threat. The one out of line is *clearly* the one issuing the threat.

Take this for example, cows are holy animals in Hinduism. Should a muslim person like me sacrifice a cow in front of the Hindus who happen to have migrated to my hometown and yell "Grow up, Hindus!" (well, I heard some Muslims actually did that but they have received their punishment) and even if I did such horrible thing, I shouldn't be surprised if my disgusting act got into the internet and all Hindu people miles away in India got mad at me and threaten me with murder. That will happen surely.

And if so, they would be in the wrong. They do not get to decide whether someone *else* eats a cow or not. Just as Muslims do not get to decide whether someone *else* gets to draw a picture of Mohammad. So what if you butcher a cow and they happen to live next door? So what if I draw a picture and you happen to live next door? Anyone making death threats over such does not deserve respect and attention. They should be condemned by everyone.

 

[Spiderman]

Muslims are big bullies compared to people of any other faith on average.

They want to bully the Free World into compromising on what we cherish.

 

[Spiderman]

Jesus taught his followers not to defend him with violence.

An apostle tried to defend him by the sword, and Jesus rebuked him.

Muhammad taught the first Muslims to shed an enormous amount of blood to spread Islam.

That Bloodshed continues 1400 years later and will continue on and on.

 

[SomeRandom]

No, guys. You don't get the point. Drawing prophet Muhammad's face is not allowed in Islam. This does not have anything to do with "growing up". Cartoon is just a cartoon, yes, but that does not mean you have to reform other people's religion. It is like, you are changing a law in math just because you are PhD in Psychology.

Well if the contest was for Muslims to draw the Prophet's face, then you'd have a valid point. I agree that the contest is a dick move. But unless this contest included pinning up said cartoons in Mosques, they are well within their rights as free citizens to do so.
Non Muslims drawing the cartoon is their business, they're not saying that Muslims should do such a thing. So your point about trying to reform a religion is also moot. You just have to learn to live alongside such acts, not partake in them, like literally all the other religions in the free world have to on a daily basis.
Look at South Park. That show probably ticks off at least someone in every denomination in Christianity. They have made fun of Satan, Jesus, Mormonism, Scientology, Judaism and yes Hindus. Apart from that one jerk every group has, most have let them continue unhindered. Because that's their choice. Just as you get to choose to not partake and even speak unfavourably about it. That's the entire point of freedom of speech.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Look at South Park. That show probably ticks off at least someone in every denomination in Christianity. They have made fun of Satan, Jesus, Mormonism, Scientology, Judaism and yes Hindus. Apart from that one jerk every group has, most have let them continue unhindered. Because that's their choice. Just as you get to choose to not partake and even speak unfavourably about it. That's the entire point of freedom of speech.

And they have also depicted Muhammad in the Super Best Friends episode, but that was before 9/11 back in a world when/where nobody cared or knew. Several years later they tried to portray him again but the network chickened out and censored it.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I didn't say that. In my country there is a clamor for open borders, respect for
Sharia law and the like. Christians are increasingly under attack for misogyny,
homophobia, indoctrination, racism etc.. yet this is precisely what Muslims do
and think, without censure because they are a persecuted minority.
Thus the "free ride" Muslims are getting in many Western societies.

Which country is this?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well if the contest was for Muslims to draw the Prophet's face, then you'd have a valid point. I agree that the contest is a dick move. But unless this contest included pinning up said cartoons in Mosques, they are well within their rights as free citizens to do so.
Non Muslims drawing the cartoon is their business, they're not saying that Muslims should do such a thing. So your point about trying to reform a religion is also moot. You just have to learn to live alongside such acts, not partake in them, like literally all the other religions in the free world have to on a daily basis.
Look at South Park. That show probably ticks off at least someone in every denomination in Christianity. They have made fun of Satan, Jesus, Mormonism, Scientology, Judaism and yes Hindus. Apart from that one jerk every group has, most have let them continue unhindered. Because that's their choice. Just as you get the choice to not partake and even speak unfavourably about it. That's the entire point of freedom of speech.

I disagree about the contest being a dick move. Draw Mohammed day began because a French satirical paper was attacked. This was a reminder of that evil act. No Muslim need or even should enter, but they only make matters worse for them by complaining. It is a reminder to all religions that they cannot threaten others.