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[Pagans/Neopagans Only] Orthopraxy vs. Orthodoxy

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
A few days ago, I wrote this article and posted it on tumblr, and I thought I'd get a debate going here, as well. The following is abridged from my original post, which you can read here: (EDIT: Can't link directly to the article itself, unfortunately, but it's in there: http://eawulf.tumblr.com/)

Keep in mind, it's not the most thoroughly thought-out "article", and is really more of a rambling on a thought I had.

Some definitions:
Orthodoxy: "Correct" belief in a religious context
Orthopraxy: "Correct" behavior/action in a religious context
Paganism: Reviving/reconstructing an historical polytheist religion of Europe, involving a lot of trial-and-error in terms of creating something that can work in the modern world (examples: Heathenry, Hellenismos, and so on)
Neopaganism: Creating a brand-new religion sometimes based more loosely on those historical religions but with a lot more emphasis on modernity, and optionally with elements from other religions from other parts of the world; often (though not always) being the personal construction of a single individual or a group of people (examples: Wicca, modern Druidry, and so on).

*****
Because modern US overculture is so influenced by Protestant denominations of Christianity, which often place orthodoxy far over orthopraxy, US Paganism and Neopaganism often follow suit, even if to a lesser degree. There is a sense that skepticism and atheism are not compatible with Paganism or Neopaganism, because some sort of belief in Gods or spellcrafts are considered central. Meanwhile, there’s also a sense that how people practice their Pagan or Neopagan religions is largely up to them, and there’s no truly “correct” way except in what way works for a given person or group.

In many cases, I agree. However, I also find it ironic that there’s no consistent orthopraxy in modern Paganism and Neopaganism, while at the same time, there’s at least some sense of orthodoxy in that atheism, skepticism, and other “materialist viewpoints” are regarded almost as taboo.

Personally, I’m far more in favor of orthopraxy than orthodoxy, at least in terms of identification with a specific religion. At some point, allowing anyone to do whatever they want under a certain named identity can cause the exact meaning of that identity to become meaningless. This is detrimental to forming communities; fellow Pagans and Neopagans cannot easily find people of like mind and practice to bond with, and existent communities become highly prone to fracture. Since orthodoxy is far more restrictive and impossible to enforce, I argue that there should be some orthopraxic standards within Pagan and Neopagan religions, decided upon by the particular communities.

However, I don’t believe such orthopraxy should be dogmatic across entire religions. For example, I identify as an Anglo-Saxon(esque) Heathen. I have certain beliefs about the Gods, many of which will be different than what other Anglo-Saxon Heathens believe. However, my rituals will differ only a little from already-existent ones, and I’ll recite prayers that already exist or at least are adapted from them. These will exist in addition to rituals I construct and prayers I write myself. That said, there will be specific “must-haves” within these rituals that must be present for validity, based on currently-existing customs.

As with all things, the degree to which I believe orthopraxy and orthodoxy should exist is on a spectrum, not a binary. There are some things I believe Heathens should regard as softly “orthodox”, such as Woden/Oðinn being a God to fear and be weary of, Þunor/Þórr being a friend to all humanity, and so on. [But] what’s considered “orthodox” should be regarded as a permanent work-in-progress, subject to revision based on the needs of Heathens at any time. After all, we have no true central authority, and should always endeavor to avoid one.

This is a very tricky situation modern Paganism and Neopaganism find themselves in. How do we keep certain identifications from becoming meaningless in discussions, and at the same time keep established restrictions from descending into all-too familiar dogmatism? Isaac Bonewits, founder of the American Druid organization Ár nDraíocht Féin (“Our Own [Druidry]”), or ADF, established early on the “Doctrine of Archdruid Fallibility”; that is to say, everyone is prone to mistakes regardless of authority on a given subject. I think if any other Pagan or Neopagan organization were to establish any degree of written orthodoxies and orthopraxies, they would be wise to establish something similar right off the bat as the one thing that cannot change.

It’s a balancing act, and one that we will always be struggling with as Pagans and Neopagans. Perhaps we should always struggle with it. What works now will not necessarily work in the future, and our Pagan/Neopagan descendants might believe and practice in ways that we may not immediately recognize. At the same time, if what they call a “blót” doesn’t at least involve any form of sprinkling some kind of liquid on people by another person and in some way offering that same liquid to the Gods (whether believed to literally exist or not), I think we’d be right in regarding their application of the word “blót” to a fundamentally different ritual as incorrect.
 
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Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Something for consideration.

It is important to note that most contemporary Pagans (a point of clarification - I do not define "Pagan" and "Neopagan" as you have, so understand that I am referencing both of those when I say "Neopagan" or "contemporary/modern Pagan") are solitaries. This is perhaps the major reason for the challenges the community faces with respect to religious identifiers, including this notion of orthodoxy and orthopraxy. I don't concern myself with either of those concepts because my personal religious practice is a religion of one that nobody shares with me. With respect to the organized religious communities I identify with alongside my religion of one - Unitarian Universalism and the Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids - those neither orthodoxic nor orthopraxic. But they don't need to be, because there are shared structures or organization that come with being members of those groups that hold them together. That sort of structure and organization is lacking in the majority of the contemporary Pagan movement too.

Eh, I don't know where I'm going with this. It's the end of the work day, and brain fried.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Perhaps we can also ask ourselves this: if someone was to practice your tradition, what are the fundamental elements that, without which, you would no longer consider them authentic? I can sure make a list of things with respect to my religion of one. But then, my traditions change and grow as I do, so... if the fundamentals change... then what? Am I now not a member of my own religion of one?

Bah, you darned Paganisms. Why can't you just be dogmatic like all those "normal" religions! :p
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
Just for a quick response and not sure if it actually fits - I always think of it most as culture. With practices, lifestyle, mindset, etc. having more of a primary focus and the juicy details of belief being there but down on the list. You could say reviving paganism as a whole is like culture-building. The culture is, as with most societies pre melting pot era, functionally a very large family unit. There are going to be lots of differences within as far as tastes, opinions, preferences but there is a certain recognizable quality we can identify.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Just for a quick response and not sure if it actually fits - I always think of it most as culture. With practices, lifestyle, mindset, etc. having more of a primary focus and the juicy details of belief being there but down on the list. You could say reviving paganism as a whole is like culture-building. The culture is, as with most societies pre melting pot era, functionally a very large family unit. There are going to be lots of differences within as far as tastes, opinions, preferences but there is a certain recognizable quality we can identify.

That's a pretty interesting way to think of it that I hadn't quite considered.

I am one of those Heathens who is perfectly okay with encorporating and Paganizing/re-Paganizing various cultural elements we still have that, so far as has been confirmed, are thus far confirmed to be from well after total-conversion. I'm also generally okay with allowing in decidedly non-Heathen elements of modern Pagan culture, and "Heathenizing" them to a degree. I don't want to "erase" the culture I already have, but rather, I want to build on it and "re-Heathenize" it.

At the same time, I understand that the identity of "Heathen" could get diluted fast if I were to allow anything in, without some sort of wider orthopraxic guidelines.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
At the same time, I understand that the identity of "Heathen" could get diluted fast if I were to allow anything in, without some sort of wider orthopraxic guidelines.

I think orthodoxy and orthopraxy are equally important, if not slightly skewed towards orthodoxy. Orthodox literally means "right thinking". You have to establish the correct belief before you can practice correctly. That, I believe, puts the brakes on all kinds of fluffy bunny stuff (which I've been accused of here and there :rolleyes:) creeping into the practice. If the belief or thinking is corrupted, the practice is corrupted. The two go hand-in-hand as part of a culture, as @Sees points out.

Unfortunately we really don't have that right now due to so few Heathens, Pagans, Neo-Pagans, or whatever label we use, scampering about and living the culture. I hate to be a Gloomy Gus, but I'm not hopeful that we'll ever be much more than largely solitary practitioners. Society today just doesn't want to live a communal or tribal mindset. As much as some internet Heathens rail against it, it may just become a virtual, on-line community.

I think it's more orthopraxic to stay in my own home, with my own husvaettr and landvaettir, shrine, ancestors, and little family (though they may be in the house, but not participating) and perform a solitary sumbel (yeah, I got ripped on for that one too :p) and blót than to drive 2-3 hours to meet up with a few people whom I may or may not click with, just to attend a sumbel or blót and say they are my "kindred".

Orthodoxy, otoh, I think is easier to nail down.... "what does it say in the Lore?", "what is the consensus of belief based on the Lore?", "do you accept the Lore?". I think Hindus have a good grip on it... if you don't accept the veracity and authority of the Vedas, you are unorthodox, heterodox, nastika...

HERETIC!!!
:D
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
You have to establish the correct belief before you can practice correctly.

Do you, though?

A problem I see with this line of thought is the implication that "Belief A" is necessary to have "Practice B," or that "Practice B" necessarily follows from "Belief A." That just is not the case. Folks with similar beliefs can have very different practices, and similar practices can emerge from different beliefs. To use an example, many people practice divination with tarot cards, but can have different beliefs about the "power" behind the cards, if they believe there us such a power at all.

On the community issue, I've noticed a shift towards organization. A slow shift, but it seems to be happening. You don't get projects like this completed otherwise.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Folks with similar beliefs can have very different practices, and similar practices can emerge from different beliefs. To use an example, many people practice divination with tarot cards, but can have different beliefs about the "power" behind the cards, if they believe there us such a power at all.

What I mean is I think you have to know what you're practicing and why. If someone wants to do a puja for Shiva, they should know at least a little something about Shiva. I've seen conversations about Shiva and Shakti being the God and Goddess for some Wiccans. Well OK, but let's make sure we know who and what Shiva and Shakti are before we invoke or worship them in a way that is actually meaningless, and perhaps offensive to them.

Heathens are a good example of similar beliefs and different practices, but the practices have at least some things in common. I don't think the opposite - different beliefs, similar practices - would work. As a Heathen who is a hard polytheist and has an affinity for many deities, e.g. Vishnu, Shiva, Thor, Herakles, I wouldn't hail Vishnu, Shiva, Thor, and Herakles at a blót with others hailing Norse gods, for example.

It's entirely possible I may be overthinking and overstretching this.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
What I mean is I think you have to know what you're practicing and why.

Gotcha.

I recall being quite disdainful of much of the contemporary Pagan literature precisely because it did not bother to consider its philosophy to my (admittedly high standard) satisfaction.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
What I mean is I think you have to know what you're practicing and why. If someone wants to do a puja for Shiva, they should know at least a little something about Shiva. I've seen conversations about Shiva and Shakti being the God and Goddess for some Wiccans. Well OK, but let's make sure we know who and what Shiva and Shakti are before we invoke or worship them in a way that is actually meaningless, and perhaps offensive to them.

Heathens are a good example of similar beliefs and different practices, but the practices have at least some things in common. I don't think the opposite - different beliefs, similar practices - would work. As a Heathen who is a hard polytheist and has an affinity for many deities, e.g. Vishnu, Shiva, Thor, Herakles, I wouldn't hail Vishnu, Shiva, Thor, and Herakles at a blót with others hailing Norse gods, for example.

It's entirely possible I may be overthinking and overstretching this.

A comparison I like to make in my head is with footage I once saw of a Bigfoot festival. Lots of people attended, but of them, there were those who believed the creature to exist, and those who didn't. Yet all still celebrated regardless.

Part of my reason for disliking orthodoxy in this case is that it doesn't really allow people to be skeptical. Someone MUST believe in the existence of the Gods, and their powers over us, in order to qualify. Rather, I'd like to see Blóts and Symbels held where everyone there might be hailing the Gods, whatever that means to them, but not everyone is necessarily a theist.

Gotcha.

I recall being quite disdainful of much of the contemporary Pagan literature precisely because it did not bother to consider its philosophy to my (admittedly high standard) satisfaction.

Well, the way I see it, it's good to have such high standards. I mean, someone's gotta keep Pop-Paganism in check. ;)
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Gotcha.

I recall being quite disdainful of much of the contemporary Pagan literature precisely because it did not bother to consider its philosophy to my (admittedly high standard) satisfaction.

It's understandable because there is so much crap being put out on blogs and all kinds of websites. It's all the worse once you start learning and see how much crap there is! I see it all as so much LARPing, not religious practice.
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
I think orthodoxy and orthopraxy are equally important, if not slightly skewed towards orthodoxy. Orthodox literally means "right thinking". You have to establish the correct belief before you can practice correctly. That, I believe, puts the brakes on all kinds of fluffy bunny stuff (which I've been accused of here and there :rolleyes:) creeping into the practice. If the belief or thinking is corrupted, the practice is corrupted. The two go hand-in-hand as part of a culture, as @Sees points out.

Unfortunately we really don't have that right now due to so few Heathens, Pagans, Neo-Pagans, or whatever label we use, scampering about and living the culture. I hate to be a Gloomy Gus, but I'm not hopeful that we'll ever be much more than largely solitary practitioners. Society today just doesn't want to live a communal or tribal mindset. As much as some internet Heathens rail against it, it may just become a virtual, on-line community.

I think it's more orthopraxic to stay in my own home, with my own husvaettr and landvaettir, shrine, ancestors, and little family (though they may be in the house, but not participating) and perform a solitary sumbel (yeah, I got ripped on for that one too :p) and blót than to drive 2-3 hours to meet up with a few people whom I may or may not click with, just to attend a sumbel or blót and say they are my "kindred".

Orthodoxy, otoh, I think is easier to nail down.... "what does it say in the Lore?", "what is the consensus of belief based on the Lore?", "do you accept the Lore?". I think Hindus have a good grip on it... if you don't accept the veracity and authority of the Vedas, you are unorthodox, heterodox, nastika...

HERETIC!!!
:D

I think it will be more ideal eventually, just way down the road. The problems making little start-up groups/communities sizzle and then die out, seem to be primarily caused by folks seeking a quick, artificial injection.

Fingers are crossed that when there are more and more 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation little pagans running around - the family and true community apect blossoms. If they keep contact and regular get-togethers, they serve as home-bases more or less, which others can connect with and possibly integrate...controversial, official .org name and policies or church-like charters not being needed. I can see it working and not think of many other alternatives as far as a solid culture. Treating it as a hobby with various clubs is just dumb and born to fail.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
It's understandable because there is so much crap being put out on blogs and all kinds of websites. It's all the worse once you start learning and see how much crap there is! I see it all as so much LARPing, not religious practice.

Wait. Role-playing isn't a religious practice? :confused:

It sure as buckets is for me, and I feel that's the case even more strongly now that I've gone through most of the Bardic grade for OBOD. Role-playing like this is very much along the same vein of the bardic traditions of old, yes? You have a storyteller (the GM) that immerses the audience (players) in the otherworlds, where they can explore all sorts of things. Truly, role-playing can be more powerfully transformative than conventional bardic storytelling because of its interactive nature. What's not religious about it? :D

Sorry. Tangent.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Wait. Role-playing isn't a religious practice? :confused:

What I call LARPing with Heathens is their desire and attempt to ape how "arch-Heathens" (I've come to hate that word) lived. Heathenry is as much a way of life as it is a religion. They think we can live, work and interact with others as if this were 10th century Scandinavia. That's not possible because society has changed and jumped a 1,000 year chasm. Once Christianity took hold in the North Countries the entire Heathen worldview changed, and that chasm opened. We don't have the community and tribal mindset, what with 6-8' high wood slat and resin fences, neighbors barely knowing each other, and 50-60 hour work weeks and/or both spouses working. This is all just how I see it.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I think it will be more ideal eventually, just way down the road. The problems making little start-up groups/communities sizzle and then die out, seem to be primarily caused by folks seeking a quick, artificial injection.

Fingers are crossed that when there are more and more 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation little pagans running around - the family and true community apect blossoms. If they keep contact and regular get-togethers, they serve as home-bases more or less, which others can connect with and possibly integrate...controversial, official .org name and policies or church-like charters not being needed. I can see it working and not think of many other alternatives as far as a solid culture. Treating it as a hobby with various clubs is just dumb and born to fail.

Wicca didn't become big overnight, either, after all.

I think we're all impatient to see it fully rebuilt in our lifetimes. To have several different Heathen groups with time-tested traditions, Allthings, histories, established rules. To be able to have named Heathen ancestors we can honor instead of named Christian ancestors and faceless Heathen ancestors. To have a body of lore, old and new, so massive that no one person could ever get through it all without being a Loremaster, and yet somehow as readily referenced as Grimm's Fairy Tales.

It's hard to accept the fact that we probably won't live to see these fully formed.
 
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