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Pagans: Is heritage important?
- Thread starter Lirille
- Start date
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
In my opinion a person's background can influence their decisions as it informs who they are but no, I don't believe your nationality or ethnicity is an important factor in deciding which stories, gods or pantheons you feel the most drawn to. I'm Scottish with Norse ancestry and I feel no connection to the Norse gods at all. The Greek gods and their stories, however, resonate with me.
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You might want to do some more research on Druidry. I'm not aware of any orders that care about one's cultural/biological heritage, though there might be some oddball out there that does. The only major contemporary Pagan group I've seen that is sometimes fussy about that is Heathenry, but even that's a fringe idea within that demographic. In short, nobody really cares.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I dont know specifically about druidry, but in my opinion and in my practice, one's heritage is a huge influence on ones spirituality. I will put it in my shoes. I dont "feel right" following Pagan (caps) religion or Eureopean traditions because so far I know none of my family came from Eureope. So, it makes me feel incomplete following a tradition that is not blood related. On the other hand, a lot of my family are from Africa, hispanic countries, and Southern US. I know this. So, if I went into Haitain Vodou, Catholicism, or a mix, I wouldnt feel I was incomplete. However, Haitian Vodou (and any African traditions) are highly culture oriented and initiation focused and expensive! The rest of my family are protestant religious bibke belt south. So, basically my herritage is christian mix with whatever my grandmother picked up from traveling military.
To me, its a huge disconnection to not be christian but like my signiture says, I cant agree with something that insults my spirit.
So it depends on how you relate to your heritage and how mu h family is important to you. If its not important dont force yourself to believe to "be Pagan." Heritage doesnt make one a Pagan its just most Pagan and pagan beliefs are culture focused. My personal bias is if a religion has initiation into a community, I cant initate myself.
But looking on the Order of Druid website, none of what I say is in stone. Just my personal opinion and practice.
The Kilted Heathen
Crow FreyjasmaðR
It certainly is a factor in Heathenry, but it's a bit more complicated than fringe.
Folkish Heathens assert that only people who are of Germanic ancestry can hold a true connection to the Gods, as we (Germanic peoples) are made by those Gods. Now, what's often glossed over and or ignored is that they don't actually say that everyone else is wrong. They don't claim superiority, they don't discount other cultures gods as their gods. They are just very "inner-yard", and closed to other peoples. The "Volkisch Heathen" variants, though, are the racists. They're the ones to make claims of superiority, oppression, anti-LGBT, etc. They're the ones who can't play nice with others.
Universalist Heathens believe that anyone and everyone can be Heathen, and no distinction or adherence to cultural practice should be imposed. Want to worship Thor as Zeus? Go right ahead! Want to use red paint to "blood" your runes? It's all the same.
Tribalist Heathens (and I'm not crazy about the name) are somewhere in the middle. This is where I fall. While we do not believe that one must be Germanic to be a Heathen, the culture is very important to us. So no, Thor is not Zeus. No, red paint won't blood your runes with the same energy that actual blood will. Most of us, though, do recognize that people with Germanic ancestry are more likely to be drawn to Heathenry than, say, someone who has Korean heritage. This does not mean they are unwelcomed, though.
So this brings us to heritage. I would argue that to most Pagans - yes, I am assuming a mantle here - heritage is important. It's not a necessity for everyone, but I've even noticed a few Druids who find it a little odd when non-Celtic peoples are interested in Druidry. It's human nature. I believe that while it's not a necessity, it does create some manner of draw for the individual - more often than not. And while our communities and cultures might be inclusive and welcoming, the gods of various cultures might not be; so one's heritage might need to be kept in mind when it comes to that.
Folkish Heathens assert that only people who are of Germanic ancestry can hold a true connection to the Gods, as we (Germanic peoples) are made by those Gods. Now, what's often glossed over and or ignored is that they don't actually say that everyone else is wrong. They don't claim superiority, they don't discount other cultures gods as their gods. They are just very "inner-yard", and closed to other peoples. The "Volkisch Heathen" variants, though, are the racists. They're the ones to make claims of superiority, oppression, anti-LGBT, etc. They're the ones who can't play nice with others.
Universalist Heathens believe that anyone and everyone can be Heathen, and no distinction or adherence to cultural practice should be imposed. Want to worship Thor as Zeus? Go right ahead! Want to use red paint to "blood" your runes? It's all the same.
Tribalist Heathens (and I'm not crazy about the name) are somewhere in the middle. This is where I fall. While we do not believe that one must be Germanic to be a Heathen, the culture is very important to us. So no, Thor is not Zeus. No, red paint won't blood your runes with the same energy that actual blood will. Most of us, though, do recognize that people with Germanic ancestry are more likely to be drawn to Heathenry than, say, someone who has Korean heritage. This does not mean they are unwelcomed, though.
So this brings us to heritage. I would argue that to most Pagans - yes, I am assuming a mantle here - heritage is important. It's not a necessity for everyone, but I've even noticed a few Druids who find it a little odd when non-Celtic peoples are interested in Druidry. It's human nature. I believe that while it's not a necessity, it does create some manner of draw for the individual - more often than not. And while our communities and cultures might be inclusive and welcoming, the gods of various cultures might not be; so one's heritage might need to be kept in mind when it comes to that.
This here.
Though I'd like to add something about the Folkish/Volkisch; it deeply saddens me that we cannot, shall we say, physically remove that filth from our ranks(and this plane of existence). They serve no purpose but to bring shame to the Gods and their followers. The Norse were an extremely cosmopolitan society, and the Folkish/Volkisch do nothing but **** on it with their racism and xenophobia.
It's worth making a distinction between "heritage is important" versus "correct heritage is required to be in this club." The first attitude is not uncommon in contemporary Paganism; the second is not the mainstream perspective. I'm under the impression that the OP is moreso concerned with the second of these two.
syo
Well-Known Member
it doesn't matter. it's true that many follow the gods of their heritage and that's fine but it's not the rule. worship the gods you like.
Not really, no. The Gods call who they please. One can adopt a culture, as well.
Riders
Well-Known Member
I have had issues with this in the past. I use to be interested in he Norse way, my familys name is French Dutch name, we originated out of Belgium in the 1400s when we got our name given to us.
I know we were originally Heathens. However when I was into the idea of going to a Heathen group, I tried one group, my guy friend said it was racists because they did not accept him as a member and they did me.
I had another group contact me that was Heathen and they wanted me in because of my name too,I don't want to be racist. if I joined a group Id want Africans Americans, Hispanics, Asians and anyone who wanted to join to be able to join.
I'm still interested in Heathenism and also Celts ,on my Moms side we were Celts.But Ive been , when I do pray, call out to Mother Nature, the Universe and at times different Gods and Godesses. So I'm not on one path.
I am fascinated by Egypt as well, I may pick up on EGyptian magic one day.
I know we were originally Heathens. However when I was into the idea of going to a Heathen group, I tried one group, my guy friend said it was racists because they did not accept him as a member and they did me.
I had another group contact me that was Heathen and they wanted me in because of my name too,I don't want to be racist. if I joined a group Id want Africans Americans, Hispanics, Asians and anyone who wanted to join to be able to join.
I'm still interested in Heathenism and also Celts ,on my Moms side we were Celts.But Ive been , when I do pray, call out to Mother Nature, the Universe and at times different Gods and Godesses. So I'm not on one path.
I am fascinated by Egypt as well, I may pick up on EGyptian magic one day.
While I know I can not speak for every pagan I will say this,
No, your biological and ethnic background does not matter. The truth is our view of ethnicity is one that is quite modern. From both written records and archeological data many groups worldwide were more varied than a lot of the folkish pagans would have you believe.
Besides as a follower of a Celtic path I can say that I have no right to judge just by looking at someone. The Gods themselves can look any way they wish so, who am I to say who can prey to them. It's your heart and deeds that matter, not the colour of your skin. Besides, who can say you weren't a "pure Celt" in a past life and now you're seeing the world from a different perspective to learn something new, or teach something new to others.
Also- if you want to be seen as part of a culture or, make a real connection, do something to actually connect yourself with it. Such as learn the language then do what you can to pass that on to others.
Indagator
Member
I will probably get a lot of hate for this post 
but heritage is very important!!!
Pagans honoring their ancestors with their actions.
If your ancestors were Jewish for example, being a Druid is not honoring them but spitting them in the face.
There is a reason why Paganism is very cultural/native/local.
but heritage is very important!!!Pagans honoring their ancestors with their actions.
If your ancestors were Jewish for example, being a Druid is not honoring them but spitting them in the face.
There is a reason why Paganism is very cultural/native/local.
Callisto
Hellenismos, BTW
I will probably get a lot of hate for this post
Pagans honoring their ancestors with their actions.
If your ancestors were Jewish for example, being a Druid is not honoring them but spitting them in the face.
There is a reason why Paganism is very cultural/native/local.
Uhm, which ancestors is one suppose to honor, how far back? I can trace maternal ancestors back to pre-Christian times yet more recent ancestors - as in those who came here in the 1600s & 1700s were Anglican, Jewish, and Mennonite. That doesn't begin to cover paternal ancestors who were African slaves and Native Americans with their respective religions.
Family lines are not homogenous even for those whose families were primarily from one continent. Societies rose and disappeared with tribes and cultures replacing or absorbing one after another. Not to mention general immigration and emigration. Ancestors being from a country doesn't necessarily mean they were all of indigenous blood.
Indagator
Member
Its up to you.
Maternal ancestors does not really matter since historically it was men who was culture bearers.
Its a popular myth in order to satisfy PC.
You are free to check out map of tribes from far back and you will see that genetically speaking changes were minimal. Look at for example Russia. They were invaded and raided countless times yet they kept their genetics intact. Same goes for Balkans for example, and look at Finland too.
If you live in US, you got a bigger problem, so i guess you should just choose ancestors who you identify most with.
Pagans that go for Gods that got nothing to do with their ancestral culture look like this to me.
EDIT: BTW i was talking about culture not genetics but since you brought up blood you got an etno-map.
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Indagator
Member
Not mine but relevant to the thread:
"Christian missionaries came close to baptizing King Radbod, but before carrying through with the ceremony and conversion he asked a question, “Where are my dead ancestors at present?” Wolfram the Christian missionary answered, “In Hell, with all other unbelievers.” Upon hearing this, Radbod changed his mind about converting and replied, “Then I would rather live there with my honourable ancestors than go to heaven with a parcel of beggars .” Beggars here refers to Christians as a whole, but also to the long-time enemies of the Frisians: the Franks who were by this point in time primarily Christian. Radbod then expelled the missionaries from the kingdom for no other reason than how important his ancestors were to him. He could not bare the thought of being separated from them."
"When I was fourteen, my mother died after a protracted illness. About 10 months later, my father also died. My father was not a Christian. Primarily he followed the Shoshone Sun Dance, since he was Shoshone.
A few weeks after my father passed away, a nun associated with the Catholic church that my mother shipped me off to every Sunday cornered me in the drugstore where I had a part time job. It was tragic, she said, but my father was certainly lost forever to the fires of Hell. My mother, on the other hand, probably made it to purgatory, and if we prayed really, really hard, maybe we might help get her out.
Thus began my crisis of faith with Christianity. I could not, and cannot, imagine anyplace being heaven without my kind, honorable, wonderful father there, or without my strong, courageous, loving mother. If there are any final destinations in time and space, I'll take the one where my people are. How could my heart go anywhere else?"
Well it is already explained in my previous post. But i would also like to add that paganism was for the most part oral tradition/religion/spirituality so that would make ancestors even more important since your grandfather that was telling you myths about Zeus, or Perkunas or whatever, would be like a bible to you. If we are talking about Native European paganism then there are very few "dogmas", but honoring your ancestors is one of them. The wishes of the dead matters in Paganism.
Anyway that was my last edit, and now i'm outta here,,,,,,,,
"Christian missionaries came close to baptizing King Radbod, but before carrying through with the ceremony and conversion he asked a question, “Where are my dead ancestors at present?” Wolfram the Christian missionary answered, “In Hell, with all other unbelievers.” Upon hearing this, Radbod changed his mind about converting and replied, “Then I would rather live there with my honourable ancestors than go to heaven with a parcel of beggars .” Beggars here refers to Christians as a whole, but also to the long-time enemies of the Frisians: the Franks who were by this point in time primarily Christian. Radbod then expelled the missionaries from the kingdom for no other reason than how important his ancestors were to him. He could not bare the thought of being separated from them."
"When I was fourteen, my mother died after a protracted illness. About 10 months later, my father also died. My father was not a Christian. Primarily he followed the Shoshone Sun Dance, since he was Shoshone.
A few weeks after my father passed away, a nun associated with the Catholic church that my mother shipped me off to every Sunday cornered me in the drugstore where I had a part time job. It was tragic, she said, but my father was certainly lost forever to the fires of Hell. My mother, on the other hand, probably made it to purgatory, and if we prayed really, really hard, maybe we might help get her out.
Thus began my crisis of faith with Christianity. I could not, and cannot, imagine anyplace being heaven without my kind, honorable, wonderful father there, or without my strong, courageous, loving mother. If there are any final destinations in time and space, I'll take the one where my people are. How could my heart go anywhere else?"
Well it is already explained in my previous post. But i would also like to add that paganism was for the most part oral tradition/religion/spirituality so that would make ancestors even more important since your grandfather that was telling you myths about Zeus, or Perkunas or whatever, would be like a bible to you. If we are talking about Native European paganism then there are very few "dogmas", but honoring your ancestors is one of them. The wishes of the dead matters in Paganism.
Anyway that was my last edit, and now i'm outta here,,,,,,,,
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Erebus
Well-Known Member
It really depends on who who talk to and what they mean by heritage. Certainly the traditions and practices of a given culture or cultures are likely to be of interest to Pagans. Some, particularly the reconstructionists, feel that it's worthwhile to try and resurrect or rediscover particular stories, rituals and perspectives. In this sense, heritage is important for the same reasons it's important to an archaeologist or anthropologist.
Some people take the above approach and advocate starting with your own ancestry, country or culture before looking elsewhere. This is mostly pragmatic since you're likely to have easier access to resources within your own "home" so to speak.
Next up you have a few people who feel heritage is important so as to not cause offense to a particular group. It's the whole "cultural appropriation" thing. Not going to go into that one.
Then you have the racists. They like to dress it up but they're just racists, plain and simple.
Personally, I favour the eclectic approach. I think there's value in a great many cultures and traditions and often find it difficult to say "Yes, this is the one I will devote my time to from now on." It could happen someday or it may not.
There are bound to be many, many more perspectives on this mind you. Paganism is hardly a unified whole.
Thank you for this explanation. I probably still wouldn't pay much mind to the heritage approach if I were to revisit paganism again. I'm more interested in truth, and I'm not going to accept anything as more valid just because my family's background leads back to it.
Erebus
Well-Known Member
Callisto
Hellenismos, BTW
Right. Which means “heritage” contains any number of different religions and deities for the given individual. If one goes back just to immediate generations it would be, in most cases, one of the modern Western religions, most likely the Judeo-Christian god. If one wants to celebrate their ancestral “heritage” in any number of previous eras and societies, then that too can change the religion and deities.
It appears you might be confusing patriarchal and patrilineal with matriarchal and matrilineal. “Heritage” implies one’s blood line which in many societies was matrilneal, not patrilineal. Matrilineal lines have been significant in Judaism and a number of cultures including Native American and South American tribes, Southeast Asia, African countries.
See:
Matrilineal society (Encyclopedia Britannica)
List of matrilineal or matrilocal societies
When people talk about "ancestry" they often confuse bloodline and ethnicity with culture when they mean the latter. "My ancestors came from Ireland, so I'm Irish." Uh, not necessarily. Their family - during whatever time frame they're looking at - came from Ireland. That doesn't automatically imply they're of "Irish blood", it just indicates those ancestors' nationality. I have ancestors who were English baronets but those ancestors came from Normandy, and elsewhere before that.
That’s impractical and misguided for most instances. I’m what’s referred to as an “ethnic chameleon,” meaning I’m often mistaken for various ethnicities. Someone light-skinned could very well have bona fide African ancestry. Many modern black Americans have European ancestry and many white Americans celebrating Euro ancestry have African ancestry as well (thanks to slave owners taking advantage of female slaves.) It's impossible for most to assume they're of some purely X ancestry. Just going back 10 generations results in over 1,000 nth-great grandparents for which there will be gaping holes of information as to their backgrounds and whether they are all, in fact, blood ancestors (i.e., not knowing whether those persons were adopted as a child themselves, or were not the birth-parent or adoptive parent to the offspring etc.).