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[Pagans] Fluff Bunnies

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
@Cassandra
I hope someday you will come to understand that:


-No, pagans need not avoid magick...

-No, pagans need not supress the desire for power...

-No, pagans need not supress the thirst for adventure...

-No, pagans need not perceive everything in the universe as either "good" or "evil", "light" or "dark", etc...

-No, pagans need not be RHP, pagans need not avoid LHP, and pagans do not even need to perceive religion as either RHP or LHP...

-No, one's pagan-ness is not determined by how how "mainstream" one's spiritual-religious views are...

-No, pagans need not follow some particular religious system subserviently and acquiescently...

-And no, a pagan experience need not be like living in a G-rated movie...



 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
FWIW:
A friend of mine who was involved in several esoteric religions such as witchcraft, paganism, etc. came away with the opinion that it was all a lot of "Let's pretend." No one really took much of it to heart, but liked the trappings and sense of uniqueness and nonconformity that goes with such practices. She told me that if everyone took up these religions, those currently in it would drop out in a heart beat. :shrug:


.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
That's been my experience with a few of the more "ritual" groups. The ones that find a need to "cast a circle" or make certain marks in the air. The ones who are all about personal energy and "shields". They'd rather be idiots and pretend, poking about in really potentially dangerous stuff, than be realistic about things - even spiritual things.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
This thread probably shouldn't be in a DIR - as it seems it has already sparked debate, would folks mind if I migrated it over to Same Faith Debates?

At any rate, I have little to say on this topic, because my thoughts on it are simple to convey. I view the term "fluffy bunny" as little more than an unnecessary pejorative on the same level as various ethnic/racial slurs. I'm relieved that the term has largely fallen out of fashion in the community, as well it should.
 

VioletVortex

Well-Known Member
This thread probably shouldn't be in a DIR - as it seems it has already sparked debate, would folks mind if I migrated it over to Same Faith Debates?

At any rate, I have little to say on this topic, because my thoughts on it are simple to convey. I view the term "fluffy bunny" as little more than an unnecessary pejorative on the same level as various ethnic/racial slurs. I'm relieved that the term has largely fallen out of fashion in the community, as well it should.

Yeah, that would be great. I wasn't sure where to put it...
 

Cassandra

Active Member
This thread probably shouldn't be in a DIR - as it seems it has already sparked debate, would folks mind if I migrated it over to Same Faith Debates?

At any rate, I have little to say on this topic, because my thoughts on it are simple to convey. I view the term "fluffy bunny" as little more than an unnecessary pejorative on the same level as various ethnic/racial slurs. I'm relieved that the term has largely fallen out of fashion in the community, as well it should.
In general debate you mean. Satanist are no Pagans. The majority of Pagans do not regard them as Pagan. They can identify as Pagans but as Catholics as well. They are shape shifters.

Left Hand Path people are not limited to any tradition. They are deviants in various degrees as well as outcast from society whether it is Pagan, Abrahamic or any other society. The characters they worship are expelled from society for their antisocial behavior and punished. In their egocentric view they think they can define their own laws. "They take the law in their own hands".

The stories of Loki, Seth, Prometheus, Satan, Azazal are very similar. Take for instance what the dead sea scrolls write about Azezal:

Azazel is one of the leaders of the rebellious Watchers in the time preceding the flood; he taught men the art of warfare, of making swords, knives, shields, and coats of mail, and women the art of deception by ornamenting the body, dyeing the hair, and painting the face and the eyebrows, and also revealed to the people the secrets of witchcraft and corrupted their manners, leading them into wickedness and impurity until at last he was, at Yahweh's command, bound hand and foot by the archangel Raphael and chained to the rough and jagged rocks of [Ha] Dudael (= Beth Ḥadudo), where he is to abide in utter darkness until the great Day of Judgment, when he will be cast into the fire to be consumed forever

This is the religion of people that are antisocial, revolt to society, any society. When these egocentric people manage taking over power society is in deep trouble. In Pagan traditions they had a very simple solution for such people: they were "outlawed", meaning they lost their protection from the law, and anyone could kill them. If you do not want to respect the traditions then you are no longer protected by the traditions. In the same way we should expel them from any other forum than their own. Some Christians love to see them active in the Pagan forum so they can continue to identify Pagans as devil worshipers.

Satanism can be called a "universal" religion because it does not limit itself to any tradition. That is why it is wrong to identify it with Pagan traditions. There is nothing Pagan about Satanism that is just Christian propaganda. They easily take any tradition and corrupt it, whether they abuse Pagan symbols or use Christian crosses upside down.

Civil society allows these people a space, we call it the "underworld". But it is always a bad thing when the underworld starts mixing itself with civil society. Than the whole of society gets corrupted. We do not want them to lure young people into their perverted practices. That is why we have police and law and order.

These people seek the hidden and the secret. The live in the undergrowth like snakes, the dark side. They can not be trusted as they hide their true intentions. In public they will deny any wrongdoing, so they can continue doing those things outside of "the light" of the public eye. Basically when they try to lure people from the upper-world to seek victims. They are part of any society, part of Nature. But not part of the traditions People try to upheld. It is foolish to give them a voice, because the public interest is not on their mind. "It is do as thou whilst".

I hope moderators will start taking their responsibility and keep Satanists out of the Pagan DIR. Otherwise their policy smells like Abrahamism trying to slander Paganism. Some Christians expressed here that took part in Demon worship that they considered Pagan. The Pagan forum is no place for Abrahamics or Satanists or Middle Eastern religions or whatever, just the revival of pre-Christian European traditions. And these societies were not evil, barbaric, satanist or whatever. They had strong taboos around Magic. A healthy society can not be based on hidden practices or lawlessness.

Here I want them out and I am not going to debate with these people in the same faith faith area. I protest to this Abramic insult.
 
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Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah, that would be great. I wasn't sure where to put it...

That's fair. I figured I would just ask you rather than file a report on it that might take a while to actually resolve backstage. :D Have to say, it's been a while since I've seen this topic discussed. I didn't think folks were even still using the term.

Moved it, so now we don't have to slap people upside the head for debating in a DIR.

@Cassandra - I don't see how anything you're saying relates to my comment. I'm not talking about Satanism. I'm not sure why you are ranting about Satanism not being Paganism - it's a different topic than the issue of the pejorative f-bomb term.
 

VioletVortex

Well-Known Member
Cassandra, just because someone holds LHP ideals does not render them Satanists, or irrelevant to Paganism.

I can relate to syncretism between Paganism and Satanism. Satanism is an opposition to Abrahamism that could ultimately lead one to Paganism. I've fallen out of favor with it, but most Christians would still consider me a Satanist, just because I'm opposed to their religion.

Christianity for example, isn't really compatible with the religions that it destroyed over a thousand years ago. That just doesn't make sense, so you are right there.

You are right about Satanists being rebellious, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Rebellion can work in multiple ways. Most rebellion in society is useless; there's no value in taking a bunch of drugs, getting a mohawk, and painting anarchy symbols everywhere. There is, however, such a thing as constructive rebellion, and that should be strongly encouraged. Unfortunately, Satanism tends to cultivate the middle of the road. No real Satanists are interested in drugs and weird hair, but they tend to focus very heavily on sex, which is okay, but still a waste of time. One turning to Satanism can be representative of good qualities.

You are looking at Devils in the wrong way. A Devil is any mythological being that is deviant from the status quo, Satan and Loki being the two most obvious. Originally, the Christians didn't give a **** about Satan, a minor biblical character inspired by Set, Ea, and some Indian deities. He escalated in importance when the Catholics starting painting him out as the force of all evil, to try to scare people into Christianity. Originally, he was a rebel angel seen as providing a service-tempting sinners to their fate. The deities Satan was inspired by were wisdom deities for the most part, and there wasn't anything bad to say about them. Loki killed Baldr, so clearly, he's bad, but every day must have it's night.
 

VioletVortex

Well-Known Member
@Cassandra
I hope someday you will come to understand that:


-No, pagans need not avoid magick...

-No, pagans need not supress the desire for power...

-No, pagans need not supress the thirst for adventure...

-No, pagans need not perceive everything in the universe as either "good" or "evil", "light" or "dark", etc...

-No, pagans need not be RHP, pagans need not avoid LHP, and pagans do not even need to perceive religion as either RHP or LHP...

-No, one's pagan-ness is not determined by how how "mainstream" one's spiritual-religious views are...

-No, pagans need not follow some particular religious system subserviently and acquiescently...

-And no, a pagan experience need not be like living in a G-rated movie...



Hit the nail on the head. Remember also, that light and dark have nothing to do with good and bad.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
The stories of Loki, Seth, Prometheus, Satan, Azazal are very similar.
No, they are not. I am not really curious where you are getting these impressions - first that Odin was avoided, and now that Loki is similar to Satan?

these [Pagan] societies were not evil, barbaric, satanist or whatever. They had strong taboos around Magic.
That must be why I have entire books on ancient Norse magic, and Medieval Icelandic staves, and poems about the magic of the runes, and visions and foretellings of the völva.

The world is not love and light, and neither were our ancestors. You say they were not evil, but I would imagine that to many they were. You say they were not barbaric, but the Romans - pre-Christian, mind you - certainly thought they were.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Loki killed Baldr, so clearly, he's bad, but every day must have it's night.
In one myth. A very obscure myth, and really the only one where Baldr is even mentioned - I fail to see this deep and almost zealous love for Baldr that permeates Heathenry. Yet to me, that only goes to prove the myth.

Yes, Loki tricked Hodr into killing Baldr. Yet Thor killed Thrym, the Vanir killed Mimir, and the Aesir killed Thiazi. So what makes Loki's slaying any worse?
 

VioletVortex

Well-Known Member

Sorry, I meant to expound. I worded that very poorly. Hindu is not Pagan in the narrow sense because it is derived from Paganism, it didn't originate in solitude. Furthermore, the word "Pagani" is Latin for "country", so the Pagans were the agrarian countrymen met by Christians after Rome was Christianity. Not Hindus.

In response to The Ragin Pagan, while I respect where you are coming from, originally, drugs were not part of Magical traditions in ancient Europe. They had a role in medicine, but recreational or "spiritual" use of psychoactive was heavily frowned upon. That doesn't necessarily mean that I completely agree, but for the most part, drugs are destructive. I don't have a problem with people using organic substances in moderation, there's a difference between that and meth use, which is completely disgusting, but recreational drug use as a whole is not a good thing. I've been there, not going to return. I could see the value of psychedelics in something like that, but alcohol is pretty worthless.

You are mostly right about sex. Many "fluff bunnies" paint Pagans out as promiscuous individuals who took part in orgies consisting of odd, deviant activities. No. They were civilized. Sex was thought of very highly in ancient Europe, as it is the source of life, and not regarded as "dirty" like it is in Abrahamism. Orgies and such are reactions to social constraints. "Forbidden" activities are much more exciting and pleasurable, so naturally, LHPers will be inclined to partake in them, and I don't care what people do, but sex wasn't socially gauche in Pagan Europe, therefore, there was no reason to be deviant.

This thread has nothing to do with Satanism, though Satanists will also use the term to describe "positive" Satanists like LaVeyans who are essentially Thelemites with a mascot. True Satanism is more about respect for evil, darkness, and power, but also an understanding that light is necessary as well. I just think Satanism is unfocused. It's Heathenry from the wrong angle. Satan is the cognate god of Wotan. There is an extremely distant relationship between the two through the Indo-European link. It's really a complex issue that I won't get into, but there are quite a few cognate gods in Eurasia. Satanism is like Heathenry where the gods don't matter; one is simply supposed to ascend to the level of the gods.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Hindu is not Pagan in the narrow sense because it is derived from Paganism, it didn't originate in solitude.
Yes, Hinduism is not Pagan as it's not European. No, Hinduism did not develop from Classical Paganism; both branches (European cultural beliefs and Indian beliefs) derived from Proto-Indo-European beliefs.

originally, drugs were not part of Magical traditions in ancient Europe. They had a role in medicine, but recreational or "spiritual" use of psychoactive was heavily frowned upon.
No, not really. Saami shamans would drink reindeer urine (after feeding them mushrooms) to journey. Norse Berserkers would ingest mushrooms as well, allowing them to truly rampage through a battlefield. There is also archeological evidence from the years 650-800 CE that Norsemen (Vikings) grew marijuana crops. So far as alcohol, it's even mythologized in several Pagan stories.

You are mostly right about sex. Many "fluff bunnies" paint Pagans out as promiscuous individuals who took part in orgies consisting of odd, deviant activities. No. They were civilized. Sex was thought of very highly in ancient Europe, as it is the source of life, and not regarded as "dirty" like it is in Abrahamism. Orgies and such are reactions to social constraints. "Forbidden" activities are much more exciting and pleasurable, so naturally, LHPers will be inclined to partake in them, and I don't care what people do, but sex wasn't socially gauche in Pagan Europe, therefore, there was no reason to be deviant.

Satanism is like Heathenry where the gods don't matter; one is simply supposed to ascend to the level of the gods.
Heathenry is nothing like that. The Gods absolutely matter, and man - while he may feast with the Gods - does not ascend to godhood.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Who says the gods of Satanic Polytheism, Luciferianism, and Setianism do not matter?
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
Who says the gods of Satanic Polytheism, Luciferianism, and Setianism do not matter?

It appears that some pagans are dead set on the idea that people whose pantheons did not originate in Europe are not "pagan". I am under no obligation to convince them otherwise... but in my usage of the term- and in many others' usage of the term- the word "pagan" may also extend to those who embrace the gods of other pantheons. The way I see it, being pagan has less to do with the names of the gods one worships, and more to do with how one goes about one's spiritual-religious practices.

My spiritual-religious system has no name. It involves polytheism, nature worship, my own culture and rituals and traditions, as well as culture and rituals and traditions passed on from generations before me. It includes ancient gods and modern gods, even gods who do not yet exist. Though I would not say "paganism is my religion", I would say that my spiritual-religious system is pagan. From my perspective, it falls within the circle of paganism, and certain other circles as well.

There will inevitably be some pagans who disapprove of this. One can not please everybody.


 
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VioletVortex

Well-Known Member
Yes, Hinduism is not Pagan as it's not European. No, Hinduism did not develop from Classical Paganism; both branches (European cultural beliefs and Indian beliefs) derived from Proto-Indo-European beliefs.


No, not really. Saami shamans would drink reindeer urine (after feeding them mushrooms) to journey. Norse Berserkers would ingest mushrooms as well, allowing them to truly rampage through a battlefield. There is also archeological evidence from the years 650-800 CE that Norsemen (Vikings) grew marijuana crops. So far as alcohol, it's even mythologized in several Pagan stories.

You are mostly right about sex. Many "fluff bunnies" paint Pagans out as promiscuous individuals who took part in orgies consisting of odd, deviant activities. No. They were civilized. Sex was thought of very highly in ancient Europe, as it is the source of life, and not regarded as "dirty" like it is in Abrahamism. Orgies and such are reactions to social constraints. "Forbidden" activities are much more exciting and pleasurable, so naturally, LHPers will be inclined to partake in them, and I don't care what people do, but sex wasn't socially gauche in Pagan Europe, therefore, there was no reason to be deviant.


Heathenry is nothing like that. The Gods absolutely matter, and man - while he may feast with the Gods - does not ascend to godhood.

The use of alcoholic libations in certain festivals has been proven, but that's different from bacchanalian drinking. Heavy drinking was brought to Europe by christians who believed that the treatment of water with copper was evil. I'm sure that drinking mead was pretty common in ancient Germany and Scandinavia, but they weren't a bunch of drunks either.

My point was that India derived it's culture from European culture which had existed prior on Europe for thousands of years, therefore, their religion is simply a borrowed tradition rather than Paganism, which refers to indigenous European religions.

I don't think that the Beserks used magic mushrooms. Taking psychedelics before battle would end very badly for the warriors. Of course, because these mushrooms were available, some would use them, because they had no incentive not to, but you are painting a picture of Pagans as a bunch of drunk promiscuous stoners. I think there's a fine median between the "straight and narrow" and the prior. Obviously, **** the straight and narrow, I'd rather be a drunk promiscuous stoner. That sounds kind of fun, but I don't think one should be excessive.

As I'm writing all of this, I find myself drawn towards Satanism again. Why would I set boundaries on myself? I set boundaries that I fail to follow, to prevent myself from watching porn, to not lie, etc. Why am I doing this to myself? Why am I being such a ****ing hypocrite? I might take a short hiatus from RF and see how I feel.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
The use of alcoholic libations in certain festivals has been proven, but that's different from bacchanalian drinking. Heavy drinking was brought to Europe by christians who believed that the treatment of water with copper was evil. I'm sure that drinking mead was pretty common in ancient Germany and Scandinavia, but they weren't a bunch of drunks either.
Yes, drinking was advised in moderation (though there are obviously drunks in every culture and society) but I significantly doubt that drunkenness was brought to Europe by Christians. Yet even in moderation, it is clear that alcohol was not shunned by Pagan societies.

My point was that India derived it's culture from European culture which had existed prior on Europe for thousands of years, therefore, their religion is simply a borrowed tradition rather than Paganism, which refers to indigenous European religions.
There's nothing to support that, and in fact I would daresay that history debunks it.

I don't think that the Beserks used magic mushrooms.
Not magic mushrooms, psychotropic mushrooms. Specifically Amanita muscaria. The mental state and manner of fighting displayed by berserkers - as described by Roman generals and even Emperor Constantine VII - described the effects of mushrooms to a T.

you are painting a picture of Pagans as a bunch of drunk promiscuous stoners.
Hardly. Not everyone was a drunkard - it was socially frowned upon - and not every warrior was mad enough to be a Berserker. What I am doing, rather, is giving clear example - in myth and known history - that displays the Pagan past as far from "love and light", avoiding things that such L&L crowd views as "bad" or "left hand" as Cassandra rants about.
 
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