[Pagans] Fluff Bunnies

[VioletVortex]

What do you think of "fluff bunnies". They are generally Pagans, and sometimes Satanists, who like to identify with Paganism or Satanism, and pretend to be witches. Essentially, dilletantes who are afraid of the more powerful aspects of Paganism.

First of all, one must understand what Paganism is. Paganism is an umbrella term for indigenous religions that did not expand beyond their homelands (historically, that is, nowadays, there are Pagans everywhere), and did not come from any outside lands. Hindu, for example, is not Paganism. It is rooted in Germanic Paganism, and it didn't originate in India. Abrahamism seeks to convert, so naturally, it is also not Pagan. Because of this, Paganism is inherently nationalistic. However, many "fluff bunnies" veer away from anything considered to be right wing because it's "racist".

The next category of fluff bunnies are the Neo-Pagans, who are usually goth girls who are aren't evil enough for Satanism. They are dying to identify with a religion that isn't Christianity, so they suddenly start calling themselves Pagans without doing any research beyond basic Wiccan spells. The usually don't believe in gods; they are more pantheists than anything else.

The final group is the "light magicians". They are a bit more serious than the prior category, but still, they are just pantheists who frequently practice witchcraft. Unlike the goth girls, they are a bit more knowledgeable, and also more dedicated, however, they are interested in only the lightest aspects of Paganism. Almost all Pagan religions focus on nature, and nature is both light and dark, good and evil, etc, which is why they are wrong.

In no way am I bashing true pantheists, I respect their belief systems, but I simply don't understand why these people claim to be Pagans when they, in fact, have nothing to do with Paganism.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What do you think of "fluff bunnies". They are generally Pagans, and sometimes Satanists, who like to identify with Paganism or Satanism, and pretend to be witches. Essentially, dilletantes who are afraid of the more powerful aspects of Paganism.

First of all, one must understand what Paganism is. Paganism is an umbrella term for indigenous religions that did not expand beyond their homelands (historically, that is, nowadays, there are Pagans everywhere), and did not come from any outside lands. Hindu, for example, is not Paganism. It is rooted in Germanic Paganism, and it didn't originate in India. Abrahamism seeks to convert, so naturally, it is also not Pagan. Because of this, Paganism is inherently nationalistic. However, many "fluff bunnies" veer away from anything considered to be right wing because it's "racist".

The next category of fluff bunnies are the Neo-Pagans, who are usually goth girls who are aren't evil enough for Satanism. They are dying to identify with a religion that isn't Christianity, so they suddenly start calling themselves Pagans without doing any research beyond basic Wiccan spells. The usually don't believe in gods; they are more pantheists than anything else.

The final group is the "light magicians". They are a bit more serious than the prior category, but still, they are just pantheists who frequently practice witchcraft. Unlike the goth girls, they are a bit more knowledgeable, and also more dedicated, however, they are interested in only the lightest aspects of Paganism. Almost all Pagan religions focus on nature, and nature is both light and dark, good and evil, etc, which is why they are wrong.

In no way am I bashing true pantheists, I respect their belief systems, but I simply don't understand why these people claim to be Pagans when they, in fact, have nothing to do with Paganism.

Just want to give you a heads up. If you want to debate or have a conversation with opposing opinions, you can put this in Same Faith debate or religious debates. Just sayin'

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I've generally only seen "fluff bunnies" or "fluffies" used to describe those who are prone to "love and light" a bit too much, believe in alteration spells, or generally do what they want and claim what they want about various powers that be. 13 year old kids who are way too chummy with beings like Azmodeus, and the like.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Garbage, especially that first paragraph.

 

[Shiranui117]

believe in alteration spells

Just wondering because I saw this term and have never seen it before. What exactly is an "alteration spell"?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

To tell you honestly, I haven't heard of any Pagan-terms l till I came online.

What do you think of "fluff bunnies". They are generally Pagans, and sometimes Satanists, who like to identify with Paganism or Satanism, and pretend to be witches. Essentially, dilletantes who are afraid of the more powerful aspects of Paganism.

First of all, one must understand what Paganism is. Paganism is an umbrella term for indigenous religions that did not expand beyond their homelands (historically, that is, nowadays, there are Pagans everywhere), and did not come from any outside lands. Hindu, for example, is not Paganism. It is rooted in Germanic Paganism, and it didn't originate in India. Abrahamism seeks to convert, so naturally, it is also not Pagan. Because of this, Paganism is inherently nationalistic. However, many "fluff bunnies" veer away from anything considered to be right wing because it's "racist".

The next category of fluff bunnies are the Neo-Pagans, who are usually goth girls who are aren't evil enough for Satanism. They are dying to identify with a religion that isn't Christianity, so they suddenly start calling themselves Pagans without doing any research beyond basic Wiccan spells. The usually don't believe in gods; they are more pantheists than anything else.

The final group is the "light magicians". They are a bit more serious than the prior category, but still, they are just pantheists who frequently practice witchcraft. Unlike the goth girls, they are a bit more knowledgeable, and also more dedicated, however, they are interested in only the lightest aspects of Paganism. Almost all Pagan religions focus on nature, and nature is both light and dark, good and evil, etc, which is why they are wrong.

In no way am I bashing true pantheists, I respect their belief systems, but I simply don't understand why these people claim to be Pagans when they, in fact, have nothing to do with Paganism.

What I find weird in my view is all of the Paganism I've heard about was online. Most of what I learned was called Witchcraft or something or other but nothing related to European practices which Witchcraft and Paganism are referred to.

Do you see this in public, in school, on the news, talking at a bar?

The only encounter I had with Pagan "racism" was at an occult store when I spoke with one Wiccan and she smiled, wide eyed, and said "I've been Wiccan all my life. My mother and father are both Wiccan" and I can guess she's in her late fifties. So, unless fluff is like the word goth, is it still relevant today? Is there a Pagan news channel? (That would be cool though the US probably would censor it.)

 

[VioletVortex]

I've generally only seen "fluff bunnies" or "fluffies" used to describe those who are prone to "love and light" a bit too much, believe in alteration spells, or generally do what they want and claim what they want about various powers that be. 13 year old kids who are way too chummy with beings like Azmodeus, and the like.

I am not too familiar with Jewish Demonology. I did a little research on it when I was a Satanist, mainly regarding Amdusias, the musical Demon, as I felt familiar with him, being a musician myself. In short, I don't know much about Asmodeus. I do see Elves and other similar spirits akin to how Satanists see Demons, though.

Satanic fluff bunnies spend way too much time on the Sigil of Baphomet, black candles, and other aesthetic things. Pagans are the same way. I see aesthetics as very important when it comes to making spiritual realities more relatable to our human minds, but it isn't something one should get so hung up on.

I am 16, when I was 14, I spent hours every night trying to devise a way to light candles for a ritual. That was pretty stupid, but when you are new to something, you tend to get excited.

 

[VioletVortex]

To tell you honestly, I haven't heard of any Pagan-terms l till I came online.


What I find weird in my view is all of the Paganism I've heard about was online. Most of what I learned was called Witchcraft or something or other but nothing related to European practices which Witchcraft and Paganism are referred to.

Do you see this in public, in school, on the news, talking at a bar?

The only encounter I had with Pagan "racism" was at an occult store when I spoke with one Wiccan and she smiled, wide eyed, and said "I've been Wiccan all my life. My mother and father are both Wiccan" and I can guess she's in her late fifties. So, unless fluff is like the word goth, is it still relevant today? Is there a Pagan news channel? (That would be cool though the US probably would censor it.)

A few years ago, I felt drawn towards European Paganism, my ancestral faith, however, I had so little knowledge that I was drawn towards Wicca, which is essentially a modernised version of Celtic Paganism. I did some research, and I found that most Wiccans obsess over their "light spells", which are apparently cast through the chanting of cliche mantras. Also, many of the sites speak of a "world of shadows", and fail to expound on it, and they also do the same about their gods.

Modern subcultures develop due to a lack of overall culture. "Pagan culture", essentially a subset of goth culture, consists of young goths trying to find companionship in covens. They do it because they think they're cute.

If you are a Wiccan, and have a genuine belief in and understanding of your religion, then I greatly respect you. Honestly, while I don't understand Wicca or believe in its teachings, I feel like fluff bunnies are a disgrace to it. They're like Satanists dressed in white.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Just wondering because I saw this term and have never seen it before. What exactly is an "alteration spell"?

Spells that allow one to change their hair color, eye color, facial features (cosmetic spells) and those that allow people to change into vampires, mermaids, dragons, etc (transmutation spells.) They're completely fantasy, but that doesn't stop some from giving the reasoning of "oh, the change happens on the Astral Plane." The New Age Vegas... What happens on the Astral Plane stays on the Astral Plane, and how dare we say that it didn't happen.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I am not too familiar with Jewish Demonology.

I'm not sure what culture he's from, or that I even got the name right. My point was children with little to no experience claiming to be able to tether, control, contact, and "pall around" with supposedly very dark and powerful beings.

Honestly, it's the same with those who insist that all the Gods speak directly to them in human language. I've heard Thor speak many times throughout my life, but do you know how many times he has spoken to me? None.

I do see Elves and other similar spirits akin to how Satanists see Demons, though.

I'm not familiar; how's that?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

A few years ago, I felt drawn towards European Paganism, my ancestral faith, however, I had so little knowledge that I was drawn towards Wicca, which is essentially a modernised version of Celtic Paganism. I did some research, and I found that most Wiccans obsess over their "light spells", which are apparently cast through the chanting of cliche mantras. Also, many of the sites speak of a "world of shadows", and fail to expound on it, and they also do the same about their gods.

Modern subcultures develop due to a lack of overall culture. "Pagan culture", essentially a subset of goth culture, consists of young goths trying to find companionship in covens. They do it because they think they're cute.

If you are a Wiccan, and have a genuine belief in and understanding of your religion, then I greatly respect you. Honestly, while I don't understand Wicca or believe in its teachings, I feel like fluff bunnies are a disgrace to it. They're like Satanists dressed in white.

I don't know. Back when I was in high school it was goths and painting your nails black days. My mother was into Witchcraft but she didn't look into it between what we believe as a family and what witchcraft actually is. We've been trying to find more about what our family practice but they hid a lot of it underneath their christian beliefs. It's embedded beliefs in heavy protestant christianity.

The god and goddess thing threw me off from Wicca and I don't understand anything about astrology. The only covens here are in Univeralist Unitarian Churches and I went to a couple of sermons and I think many people there were ex-catholics. Even the topic was about being non dogmatic. So a lot of bias.

Basically, I'm playing it "by ear."

Most likely there are still people enthusiastic about new practices especially the magic part but then when they finally realize what magic actually is, they'd probably go "oh. that's boring." and the maturity comes in where you use the mundane in your rituals or hop off and find something new like drinking coffee.

 

[VioletVortex]

I'm not sure what culture he's from, or that I even got the name right. My point was children with little to no experience claiming to be able to tether, control, contact, and "pall around" with supposedly very dark and powerful beings.

Honestly, it's the same with those who insist that all the Gods speak directly to them in human language. I've heard Thor speak many times throughout my life, but do you know how many times he has spoken to me? None.


I'm not familiar; how's that?

A deity has a message. Obviously, this message is omnipresent, but it can speak to certain people more so than to others, just based off of the person's nature. However, a deity cannot speak to one person at a time.

I don't understand why people see deities as lesser than them; something they can manipulate and control around. One can call upon a deity, who may or may not respond.

Not that I am one to believe that Alfs are literal, but they are said to do favors and provide gifts, like Demons are said to do when called upon, and they also possess malevolent sides, and some are probably more malicious than others, but according to the mythology, they will bring harm upon someone who damages their home. Demons are similar, they tend to embody an "eye for an eye" principal, and some are essentially evil spirits. I don't believe that Alfs literally exist, but they are symbolic of certain ideas that are smaller than the ones embodied by the gods, hence their smaller size. Essentially, they are parts of the human subconscious.

 

[Cassandra]

What do you think of "fluff bunnies". They are generally Pagans, and sometimes Satanists, who like to identify with Paganism or Satanism, and pretend to be witches. Essentially, dilletantes who are afraid of the more powerful aspects of Paganism.

My view:

Well any sane person would be. That is why Pagans want nothing to do with Satanism. Healthy sane people are not interested in gaining power through magic and occult practices.

I regard Paganism as the Right Hand Path, as Satanism is the Left Hand Path. Mainstream traditions are not about worship and rituals for gaining power. That only brings trouble. In Africa people still kill and eat babies to gain power. But it also happens in hereditary Satanist families.

"Fluff bunnies" sounds condescending. If youngsters scare away from your power magic, they use their good instincts. For most it is simply a phase, so please let it be an innocent one.

For me and majority of Pagans Paganism is not about magic. Magic has always been frowned upon and should not be confused with trying to create harmony with the spirits. Nor should ancestor reverence be confused with necromancy. They are completely different things.

Paganism has nothing to do with the occult. The occult is the religion and practices of less sane minds. Some people simply do not fit in. Some are mental deviants, some are openly anti-social others hide their secret perverted longings. These people refuse to follow mainstream traditions. In every society there are such people. Satanist are a typical example.

They try to make it believe Satan is just a God and that Pagans have no concept of morality. That is pure nonsense. Gods like Seth, Satan, Prometheus, Lucifer served to their society as a warning. A society needs both positive and negative examples, what is good and what to stay away from.

For Pagans Gods are important spirits that they would bring offerings too. Often not even because they like them, but simply to appease them. Odin was not liked, The Greeks did not like Ares. People generally found Odin a dangerous spirit they wanted to keep away from.

Lets not mix Left Hand Path and Right Hand Path in the Pagan DIR. Satanism is not a subsection of Paganism. Its "do as thou whilst"-philosophy is contrary to Pagan ideas to serve others and society to earn respect.

Many Pagans have a problem with Wicca because of the Magic. But I can accept Wicca because they are Right Hand Side. I have nothing against people who use their gifts for healing purposes. And if their spells are harmless placebos, I do not find that a problem either.

People serious about reviving Pagan traditions should distance themselves from all the occult stuff, the Satanist. It easily attract lots of basket cases of which some are truly dangerous. Supremacists, Sadomasochists, Pedophiles, narcissists, sexual perverts, people that do animal some even human sacrifice to gain power. Those people slip in when you allow this dark side to identify with your religion. It often happens when new movements become popular. This gives these people the possibility to create ideological constructs that allow for their deviant behavior (like "do as thou whilst").

Mainstream traditions promote sane views and behavior. We need other people to correct us and keep us sane. And yes society ostracizes people that go against the grain. Sure, Pagan traditions have no ideological thought police like some Abrahamic ones. But that does not mean people can do and say what they want. Deviants are only tolerated when they stick to their own and do not publicly challenge traditions. Do not think that the unwritten law is less restrictive than the written law. Pagan societies have their do's and don'ts and are rather more restrictive towards behavior.

I do not like the way people from other DIR's are trespassing here. I do not like Christians doing it, and I do not like Satanists doing it. They should stay in their own DIR. This is not the place to promote Christian or Left Hand Path ideas.

People that tell us that they include Jesus or Satan in their Pantheon are not Pagans either. Our ancestors did not worship Jesus or Satan. Nor have our Ancestors anything to do with Middle Eastern Religions. Paganism is simply about maintaining and restoring European Pre-Christian Mainstream Traditions.

If we ever want Pagan traditions to revive we should make sure they follow the highest ethics.

 

[Aštra’el]

So who among you feckless heathens appointed Cassandra to the position of supreme grand representive of all pagans everywhere?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I regard Paganism as the Right Hand Path, as Satanism is the Left Hand Path.

There is plenty of "left hand" in Paganism.

"Fluff bunnies" sounds condescending.

It is. One can only exert so much patience with people who think magic is all Harry Potter and Twilight before they are disregarded as desiring nothing but fantasy.

For me and majority of Pagans Paganism is not about magic.

Tell that to the majority of Pagans who practice various forms of magic.

Nor should ancestor reverence be confused with necromancy. They are completely different things.

Not completely. Necromancy is speaking with the dead for knowledge, guidance, or glimpses into the future. If one gets those from their ancestors (especially the first two,) it is necromancy.

Paganism has nothing to do with the occult.

Yes it does. "Occult" really only means "hidden knowledge". That Paganism deals greatly with spiritual knowledge and unrevealed things, it is very much about the occult.

Gods like Seth, Satan, Prometheus, Lucifer served to their society as a warning. A society needs both positive and negative examples, what is good and what to stay away from.

Prometheus stole fire from the gods to build human civilization. He aided us. He's also Greek, which is well within the fold of Paganism. Lucifer - who is Roman, also within Paganism - is the god of the dawn. Neither are villains or evil.

Odin was not liked ... People generally found Odin a dangerous spirit they wanted to keep away from.

I am really curious as to where you got this impression.

Many Pagans have a problem with Wicca because of the Magic.

Actually most Pagans that I've spoken with about this very topic have an issue with Wicca because they view it as "Buffet Paganism".

People serious about reviving Pagan traditions should distance themselves from all the occult stuff, the Satanist.

You gotta have the bad with the good. Life is not "love and light," and neither should a religion that is honest about emulating and worshiping nature. For every day, there is a night.

It easily attract lots of basket cases of which some are truly dangerous. Supremacists, Sadomasochists, Pedophiles, narcissists, sexual perverts, people that do animal some even human sacrifice to gain power.

Those people are easily dealt with in their own regard, and more often than not are not drawn to Paganism because of "left hand" stuff. Neither are human sacrifices done anymore, and not even animal sacrifices really.

I do not like the way people from other DIR's are trespassing here. I do not like Christians doing it, and I do not like Satanists doing it. They should stay in their own DIR. This is not the place to promote Christian or Left Hand Path ideas.

No one's promoting Christianity. And as this is basically public, no one is "trespassing." Settle down.

 

[Callisto]

A few years ago, I felt drawn towards European Paganism, my ancestral faith, however, I had so little knowledge that I was drawn towards Wicca, which is essentially a modernised version of Celtic Paganism. I did some research, and I found that most Wiccans obsess over their "light spells", which are apparently cast through the chanting of cliche mantras. Also, many of the sites speak of a "world of shadows", and fail to expound on it, and they also do the same about their gods.

Modern subcultures develop due to a lack of overall culture. "Pagan culture", essentially a subset of goth culture, consists of young goths trying to find companionship in covens. They do it because they think they're cute.

If you are a Wiccan, and have a genuine belief in and understanding of your religion, then I greatly respect you. Honestly, while I don't understand Wicca or believe in its teachings, I feel like fluff bunnies are a disgrace to it. They're like Satanists dressed in white.

The problem is much of what calls itself "Wicca" is actually Neopagan eclecticism, there's very much a difference. Actual Wicca is British and is an initiatory pagan priesthood of specific deities that employs witchcraft in its rituals. It is not something that fluidly shifts from person to person but maintains a coherent body that is transmitted from one initiate to the next.

The love n' light crowd is a by-product of cultural influences and shoddy pagan publishing from the 1980s on. There were various sensationalism like cases stemming from the "satanic panic" of the 1980s and the railroading of the West Memphis Three in the early 1990s which prompted many in the growing pagan community to overcompensate by emphasizing love n' light and touting the Wiccan Rede as some kind of universal pagan commandment hoping to diminish anything that might remotely seem negative or could be weaponized by bigots because many individuals who identified as Wiccan or simply witch often faced discrimination, sometimes losing custody of their children. Compounding this, publishers and authors added "wicca" to any title they could with no regard to legitimacy or research. The assumption that Wicca is Celtic is also a product of the 1990s "Irish craze" (think Riverdance), and such nonsense titles like "Witta" and "Faery Wicca".

 

[SalixIncendium]

What do you think of "fluff bunnies". They are generally Pagans, and sometimes Satanists, who like to identify with Paganism or Satanism, and pretend to be witches. Essentially, dilletantes who are afraid of the more powerful aspects of Paganism.

First of all, one must understand what Paganism is. Paganism is an umbrella term for indigenous religions that did not expand beyond their homelands (historically, that is, nowadays, there are Pagans everywhere), and did not come from any outside lands. Hindu, for example, is not Paganism. It is rooted in Germanic Paganism, and it didn't originate in India. Abrahamism seeks to convert, so naturally, it is also not Pagan. Because of this, Paganism is inherently nationalistic. However, many "fluff bunnies" veer away from anything considered to be right wing because it's "racist".

The next category of fluff bunnies are the Neo-Pagans, who are usually goth girls who are aren't evil enough for Satanism. They are dying to identify with a religion that isn't Christianity, so they suddenly start calling themselves Pagans without doing any research beyond basic Wiccan spells. The usually don't believe in gods; they are more pantheists than anything else.

The final group is the "light magicians". They are a bit more serious than the prior category, but still, they are just pantheists who frequently practice witchcraft. Unlike the goth girls, they are a bit more knowledgeable, and also more dedicated, however, they are interested in only the lightest aspects of Paganism. Almost all Pagan religions focus on nature, and nature is both light and dark, good and evil, etc, which is why they are wrong.

In no way am I bashing true pantheists, I respect their belief systems, but I simply don't understand why these people claim to be Pagans when they, in fact, have nothing to do with Paganism.

Fluffy bunnies are just a bunch of Playgans and McWiccans who are in it for the image so they can look kewl amongst their friends, not the respective religions themselves. They go through the motions of ritual from watching Charmed or The Craft and do little other research or reflection on the deities of these belief structures.

As a former Wiccan, I've had countless debates with McWiccans who said that they are Wiccan because the picked up a Cunningham book and initiated themselves (an oxymoron) and because they did, the Goddess and God aid them in their mahdjikquelle workings.

I think the fad has subsided, but for those that remain, I have no use for them. They set a bad example of the serious practitioners' image in the public eye.

 

[VioletVortex]

My view:

Well any sane person would be. That is why Pagans want nothing to do with Satanism. Healthy sane people are not interested in gaining power through magic and occult practices.

I regard Paganism as the Right Hand Path, as Satanism is the Left Hand Path. Mainstream traditions are not about worship and rituals for gaining power. That only brings trouble. In Africa people still kill and eat babies to gain power. But it also happens in hereditary Satanist families.

"Fluff bunnies" sounds condescending. If youngsters scare away from your power magic, they use their good instincts. For most it is simply a phase, so please let it be an innocent one.

For me and majority of Pagans Paganism is not about magic. Magic has always been frowned upon and should not be confused with trying to create harmony with the spirits. Nor should ancestor reverence be confused with necromancy. They are completely different things.

Paganism has nothing to do with the occult. The occult is the religion and practices of less sane minds. Some people simply do not fit in. Some are mental deviants, some are openly anti-social others hide their secret perverted longings. These people refuse to follow mainstream traditions. In every society there are such people. Satanist are a typical example.

They try to make it believe Satan is just a God and that Pagans have no concept of morality. That is pure nonsense. Gods like Seth, Satan, Prometheus, Lucifer served to their society as a warning. A society needs both positive and negative examples, what is good and what to stay away from.

For Pagans Gods are important spirits that they would bring offerings too. Often not even because they like them, but simply to appease them. Odin was not liked, The Greeks did not like Ares. People generally found Odin a dangerous spirit they wanted to keep away from.

Lets not mix Left Hand Path and Right Hand Path in the Pagan DIR. Satanism is not a subsection of Paganism. Its "do as thou whilst"-philosophy is contrary to Pagan ideas to serve others and society to earn respect.

Many Pagans have a problem with Wicca because of the Magic. But I can accept Wicca because they are Right Hand Side. I have nothing against people who use their gifts for healing purposes. And if their spells are harmless placebos, I do not find that a problem either.

People serious about reviving Pagan traditions should distance themselves from all the occult stuff, the Satanist. It easily attract lots of basket cases of which some are truly dangerous. Supremacists, Sadomasochists, Pedophiles, narcissists, sexual perverts, people that do animal some even human sacrifice to gain power. Those people slip in when you allow this dark side to identify with your religion. It often happens when new movements become popular. This gives these people the possibility to create ideological constructs that allow for their deviant behavior (like "do as thou whilst").

Mainstream traditions promote sane views and behavior. We need other people to correct us and keep us sane. And yes society ostracizes people that go against the grain. Sure, Pagan traditions have no ideological thought police like some Abrahamic ones. But that does not mean people can do and say what they want. Deviants are only tolerated when they stick to their own and do not publicly challenge traditions. Do not think that the unwritten law is less restrictive than the written law. Pagan societies have their do's and don'ts and are rather more restrictive towards behavior.

I do not like the way people from other DIR's are trespassing here. I do not like Christians doing it, and I do not like Satanists doing it. They should stay in their own DIR. This is not the place to promote Christian or Left Hand Path ideas.

People that tell us that they include Jesus or Satan in their Pantheon are not Pagans either. Our ancestors did not worship Jesus or Satan. Nor have our Ancestors anything to do with Middle Eastern Religions. Paganism is simply about maintaining and restoring European Pre-Christian Mainstream Traditions.

If we ever want Pagan traditions to revive we should make sure they follow the highest ethics.

The Left Hand Path is a moral ideology. It asserts that morals are a construct of a society. I disagree; I believe that they are a construct of a species preservation instinct. Satanists generally follow the Left Hand Path, however, there are a few Satanists who revere Satan as a bringer of evil, and they see him as having an authority to be respected. These people are hard to come by, and it is rare to find a respectable, true Diabolical Satanist. "Satan" (Sanksrit-"Truth", Hebrew-"Adversary") is a composite character of various eastern deities, most notably Set and Ea, but some European gods have been worked in to the modern image of Satanism. The Left Hand Path is not synonymous with Satanism.

Satan, to me, represents the concept of antichristianity. While I don't think it's the ultimate goal, there can be a lot of symbolic power in inverting Christianity. Satanism is a path, Paganism a religion. Jesus, on the other hand, has little relevancy in the Pagan world.

Magic isn't about strictly harming others and attaining malicious powers. It can be used, and I have done so, with moderate success, to harm people who have harmed you, and there's nothing wrong with vengeance. What I don't like is manipulative capitalists wronging the masses. Magic is very broad. It ranges from physical magic (music, for example), invocation, ritual etc. There is no dichotomy within magic. It's all magic, regardless of the motives. Most Pagans recognise the need for balance between light and dark.

 

[Cassandra]

The Left Hand Path is a moral ideology. It asserts that morals are a construct of a society. I disagree; I believe that they are a construct of a species preservation instinct. Satanists generally follow the Left Hand Path, however, there are a few Satanists who revere Satan as a bringer of evil, and they see him as having an authority to be respected. These people are hard to come by, and it is rare to find a respectable, true Diabolical Satanist. "Satan" (Sanksrit-"Truth", Hebrew-"Adversary") is a composite character of various eastern deities, most notably Set and Ea, but some European gods have been worked in to the modern image of Satanism. The Left Hand Path is not synonymous with Satanism.

Satan, to me, represents the concept of antichristianity. While I don't think it's the ultimate goal, there can be a lot of symbolic power in inverting Christianity. Satanism is a path, Paganism a religion. Jesus, on the other hand, has little relevancy in the Pagan world.

Magic isn't about strictly harming others and attaining malicious powers. It can be used, and I have done so, with moderate success, to harm people who have harmed you, and there's nothing wrong with vengeance. What I don't like is manipulative capitalists wronging the masses. Magic is very broad. It ranges from physical magic (music, for example), invocation, ritual etc. There is no dichotomy within magic. It's all magic, regardless of the motives. Most Pagans recognise the need for balance between light and dark.

My view, and I can only give my view:

I think your path is diametrically opposed to mine and mainstream traditions, Pagan or not. People with that kind of thinking are also part of society, but luckily they generally do not define the norms. When values and society become corrupt, they can grab power, then they become further corrupted and seek absolute power and good people suffer. That is why Pagans have always fought hard to keep their independence.

Mainstream tradition gives people a sane path to go through the life cycles, but egocentric people shortsightedly want to live according to their immediate wants (Do as thou whilst). It is the path of destruction and self-destruction. To harm others is only an indirect way to harm yourself. Magic creates the illusion that by hiding it you can harm others without it coming back to you. That is the idea that underlies crime, the illusion that one can escape the consequences of one's actions. Read the Pagan myths, they stress how your negative actions will always come to haunt you on earth, even if they are done with the noblest of intentions(!).

Seeking power is the dark path. Power can only be wielded well by people who are absolutely pure and such people do not seek power, rather want to stay away from it, knowing the inherent dangers associated with it. As the ancient said: Power is the ax made white-hot in the fire that when held to the cheek burns all but the purest. If you think you are that one, congratulations.

I am no Christian, I do not want to save people from themselves, unless I feel responsibility for them. If people want to walk the wild side, that is their choice. I believe in personal responsibility. You want to harm others because it makes you feel manly to revenge, than take the consequences when it all comes back to you as a man too. Society will often present people with the consequences, that is noble task of society, and otherwise evil people will do it for society.

I however do feel the need to warn youngsters seeking adventure in magic for people who challenge them and call them chicken for not playing their dangerous power games with them. That is what people on the dark path tend to do as they are scared to walk that path alone. So they seek others to join them.

I personally think those that are condescendingly called fluff bunnies here for not falling in that trap, because they indeed feel it is wrong and it scares them, are the pure and strong ones, and the ones that give in to the social pressure are the weak ones. Most dangerous is the practice of worshiping demons and calling the death. These are spirits that seek to overpower people. They seek bodies they can use. As they are unclean they can not be reborn in a normal way.

And sure some people are totally absorbed by the dark path and the spirits they voluntarily let in. They lose their good sense and become their play tools. Their lust for power is not even their own anymore. Such people no longer see harming others as evil, and their ethics is reversed in many ways. Those are not many but they play their role in dragging in others.

I do not judge people. Pagans more than Abramists are aware of the importance of embracing good spirits, but also staying away from angry (revengeful) spirits and (if one can not) pacifying angry spirits to create spiritual harmony. Pure people will recognize what is true and follow that path, those that lose their purity and seek adventure will experience hard lessons from all the bumps in the road. Some will seek the very edge and fall over, some scare away and change their ways.

Lao Tze said it like this:
The wise find it hard to follow the path
Common people simply walk the path
but also lose it again
the ignorant ridicule the path
That is why it is called the path

That is how I feel, but you obviously feel different about these things. You people have your DIR in the Left Hand Path and Satanist DIR, so please leave this DIR to people who follow the Right Hand Path of main stream traditions. That way we do not have to irritate each other.

Let us agree on one thing: In Pagan societies there has always been a strong taboo on the kind of Magic Satanists practice. To call that Pagan is to call crime Pagan. Not everything Pagans do is Pagan. It is only Pagan if it is carried by traditions of people at large. Traditions are the opposite of "do as thou whilst", Following traditions means do as society prescribes. Follow the wisdom of generations before you.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Read the Pagan myths, they stress how your negative actions will always come to haunt you on earth, even if they are done with the noblest of intentions(!).

Which myths? Because off the top of my head: murder created all of existence; murder, seduction, and theft brought about poetic inspiration; theft brought about the most powerful weapons and charms of the Gods... etc. Pagan myths are far from love and light.

Seeking power is the dark path.

Then all of mankind is dark. There are so many forms of power, and even the most "L&L" group seek it.

Power can only be wielded well by people who are absolutely pure

Then why do so many who are corrupt wield it with impunity?

Most dangerous is the practice of worshiping demons and calling the death. These are spirits that seek to overpower people. They seek bodies they can use. As they are unclean they can not be reborn in a normal way.

This comes from a critical misunderstanding (or rather, a Christianized understanding) of demons - properly dæmon - and what they are. Half of what society calls "demons" are villainized Pagan gods.

As for death, and spirits of death, that calls to us daily. It overpowers us every day. Revering the gods of death as our inevitable hosts is not a "dark path", it is realism.

Pagans more than Abramists are aware of the importance of embracing good spirits, but also staying away from angry (revengeful) spirits and (if one can not) pacifying angry spirits to create spiritual harmony.

And yet, in the interest of that "spiritual harmony," vengeance and anger must be sought in the overabundance of peace and tranquility. Nowhere but L&L ideology is vengeance and anger shied away from or promoted against.

You people have your DIR in the Left Hand Path and Satanist DIR, so please leave this DIR to people who follow the Right Hand Path of main stream traditions.

Nothing about this DIR says "right hand path."

Let us agree on one thing: In Pagan societies there has always been a strong taboo on the kind of Magic Satanists practice.

While I agree that Satanism is not a tradition of Paganism, there is no support for this. Ancient pagan societies were just as much about self-glory, the acquisition of power, knowledge, etc as Satanism is today. Oracles saw into the future, advised kings, and consorted with all manner of spirits. Heroes descended to the underworld to defy gods and save loved ones. To ignore that is pure romanticism, and culturally dishonest.