Paganism and Cultural Misappropriation

[lilithu]

A few weeks back, I got into a little spat with a UU Pagan, and it reminded me that.... while there are many aspects of Paganism that I do like and I have many Pagan friends, there is an aspect of some forms of Paganism with which I am increasingly uncomfortable.

The conversation went something like this:

Me: I see our chalice as representing the divine spark within each of us.

NP: Not all of us follow the path of light, Lilith.

Me: I know. You're talking to someone who's chosen moniker is Lilith.

NP: Ah yes, Lilith, the earth mother.

Me: Erm, I was referring to Lilith from the Jewish tradition.

NP: But the Jews used to be polytheists.

Me: They were henotheists, but that is neither here nor there.

NP: I am Pagan.

Me: I don't think that gives you more authority to speak on Jewish myths than anyone else here.

NP: I preserve the "old traditions."

Me (under my breath): You practice a religion that's been reconstructed. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't give me that "preserve the old traditions" crap.


Let me be clear, I have nothing against earth-based spirituality in general and in fact practice it myself, even tho I don't identify as Pagan. Nor do I have anything against Druids or Wiccans or Asatru, all of which seem to be specfic traditions of varying kinds. Where I have a problem with some so-called "Pagans" is when it's someone who claims to be "worshipping" or "calling" or whatever various gods and goddesses from different cultural traditions - from Isis to Kwan Yin, from Hermes to Ganesh to Yemaya. And acting as if they have proprietary rights because they are "Pagan" and "Pagans" worship gods and goddesses. Without regards to the cultural contexts from which these deities originate. To my mind, that smacks of cultural misappropriation.

 

[Quagmire]

"NP: Ah yes, Lilith, the earth mother".

Where is he getting this definition from? I'd ask him just to see what he says.

I'm betting if you pick his mind you'll find he got it from some bad pseudo-pagan poetry.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

It also smacks of pomposity. No one has rights over any god or myth. They are humankind's to share.

 

[Quagmire]

Where is he getting this definition from? I'd ask him just to see what he says.

I'm betting if you pick his mind you'll find he got it from some bad pseudo-pagan poetry.

And I'd hardly call it old, although it gets old quick.

 

[lilithu]

Where is he getting this definition from? I'd ask him just to see what he says.

I'm betting if you pick his mind you'll find he got it from some bad pseudo-pagan poetry.

It wasn't the first time that I've heard Lilith referred to as "earth mother," which is curious because I normally think of "earth mothers" as being round, nurturing, and fecund. None of which are adjectives that I would use for Lilith.

After the spat, I tried to find some reference to Lilith as "earth mother" online and I couldn't find much. The hits that I got all seemed to come from the same source and I could not find a scholarly source. Lilith as vampire, I can understand, because she was a Sumerian goddess of the night, and a Babylonian wind-demon/succubus. It's also easy to see how the Jewish Lilith myth relates to the Sumerian/Babylonian stories. But "earth mother"? shrug....

 

[Quagmire]

Simply put, in the nicest possible terms I can think of; you're friend doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[lilithu]

It also smacks of pomposity. No one has rights over any god or myth. They are humankind's to share.

To be fair, I don't think he was claiming that he had rights to Lilith over me. The implied claim as I took it was that he knew more about Lilith than I did. It's quite possible to know more about Lilith than I do, but not simply by virtue of identifying as "Pagan." It's as if by adopting this label he has somehow magically been imbued with ancient secret wisdom.

But let me be clear, I am not just just ragging on this one person. The interaction with him simply reminded me of an issue that I have in general with certain people who identify as Pagan.

Also, while I do agree with you ultimately that all myths belong to humanity, I think that they MUST be understood within the contexts within which they originated.

An obvious example is the goddess Kali. On first glance, she looks scary and evil. She has a necklace of human skulls and a girdle of arms and legs and dances on funeral pyres. Not knowing much more than what she looks like, Hollywood decides to make a movie in which the followers of Kali are evil murderers with supernatural powers. Hence, "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom." :cover:

Kali belongs to all humanity, but only if she is treated with respect, depicted as she really is, which requires some cultural competency.

Similarly, to bring it back to the OP, if people want to worship/call a variety of deities from across different traditions, it may not be inherently wrong to do so. But it would be difficult to do so with appropriate cultural sensitivity. One cannot simply go to the internet and google "goddess of love" and assume that all of the deities that one gets in the search results are interchangeable. Venus is not Inanna is not Freya.

 

[lilithu]

Simply put, in the nicest possible terms I can think of; you're friend doesn't know what he's talking about.

But he "preserves the old traditions," Quagmire.

 

[Quagmire]

It wasn't the first time that I've heard Lilith referred to as "earth mother," which is curious because I normally think of "earth mothers" as being round, nurturing, and fecund. None of which are adjectives that I would use for Lilith.

After the spat, I tried to find some reference to Lilith as "earth mother" online and I couldn't find much. The hits that I got all seemed to come from the same source and I could not find a scholarly source. Lilith as vampire, I can understand, because she was a Sumerian goddess of the night, and a Babylonian wind-demon/succubus. It's also easy to see how the Jewish Lilith myth relates to the Sumerian/Babylonian stories. But "earth mother"? shrug....

I'm guessing it's a pretty recent (mis)conception of the Lilith myth, Lilithu. Lilith is a popular figure in the neo-pagan/pop-spirituality/uber-PC movement. She's the woman who never needed God or man so she's come to be a symbol of feminine empowerment and independence as well as opposition to patriarchal society and sentiment.

Central Cal (where I am) is probably ground zero for this mind-set and I've known a lot of people spouting a lot of misinformation about just about any cosmology you want to name.

I call it Dungeons & Dragons for Middle aged hippies.

 

[Quagmire]

Just to be clear: I'm not making fun of the principles involved, just the superficiality of most of the practitioners I've met;

Did you know that for $400 you can take a 6 months course in your spare time and become a full-fledged "Shaman"? You'll get a certificate and everything. :yes:

For another $50 they'll even through in business cards.

 

[Gentoo]

Let me be clear, I have nothing against earth-based spirituality in general and in fact practice it myself, even tho I don't identify as Pagan. Nor do I have anything against Druids or Wiccans or Asatru, all of which seem to be specfic traditions of varying kinds. Where I have a problem with some so-called "Pagans" is when it's someone who claims to be "worshipping" or "calling" or whatever various gods and goddesses from different cultural traditions - from Isis to Kwan Yin, from Hermes to Ganesh to Yemaya. And acting as if they have proprietary rights because they are "Pagan" and "Pagans" worship gods and goddesses. Without regards to the cultural contexts from which these deities originate. To my mind, that smacks of cultural misappropriation.

Do you mean, as I've heard before, "cultural rape"?

 

[lilithu]

I'm guessing it's a pretty recent (mis)conception of the Lilith myth, Lilithu. Lilith is a popular figure in the neo-pagan/pop-spirituality/uber-PC movement. She's the woman who never needed God or man so she's come to be a symbol of feminine empowerment and independence as well as opposition to patriarchal society and sentiment.

You can read all of those things into the Hebrew myth. I do. And there is a Jewish feminist journal called "Lilith" for that reason. But "earth mother," I do not get. Is it because she was made of earth and was the first woman?? But she is not a maternal figure.

I don't mind reinterpretation. It's just that it has to based on something. One starts with something and then reinterprets. One doesn't just make stuff up out of nowhere.

Central Cal (where I am) is probably ground zero for this mind-set and I've known a lot of people spouting a lot of misinformation about just about any cosmology you want to name.

I call it Dungeons & Dragons for Middle aged hippies.

A friend recently called it "internet religion," which I think is apt.

Just to be clear: I'm not making fun of the principles involved, just the superficiality of most of the practitioners I've met;

Did you know that for $400 you can take a 6 months course in your spare time and become a full-fledged "Shaman"? You'll get a certificate and everything. :yes:

For another $50 they'll even through in business cards.

Yes, that is my beef with the so-called "New Age" movement. It's superficial, takes indiscriminately from indigenous traditions without understanding them, and seems to be based primarily on buying things, whether it be crystals or attending seminars... These so-called instructors will go to Native American tribes (for example), learn a few terms, and then pass themselves off as "experts" who then charge for their "knowledge." Meanwhile, the tribe does not benefit monetarily from this pillaging and their sacred rituals are being mimicked by (as you said) middle-aged hippies who think they have the right to perform the rituals because they took the seminar or read the book.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

To be fair, I don't think he was claiming that he had rights to Lilith over me. The implied claim as I took it was that he knew more about Lilith than I did. It's quite possible to know more about Lilith than I do, but not simply by virtue of identifying as "Pagan." It's as if by adopting this label he has somehow magically been imbued with ancient secret wisdom.

Sorry, I meant in general, in response to what you said:

And acting as if they have proprietary rights because they are "Pagan" and "Pagans" worship gods and goddesses.

Also, while I do agree with you ultimately that all myths belong to humanity, I think that they MUST be understood within the contexts within which they originated.

Which is part of the importance of sharing.

After a while, the contexts will get lost, but by that time, the sharing has either created new important perspectives, or distilled the basic essence of a myth until only the important human element remains.

For me, that's why mythology is so important. It connects us with that vital living spirit that gets lost in the everyday.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Do you mean, as I've heard before, "cultural rape"?

While it's an important term with important consequences, I've seen it used very inappropriately.

For instance, I've discussed this issue with folks who feel that myths and gods need to be kept within their culture. Wiccan Christians get this all the time. I see it as simply not realistic and actually a death sentence for that culture.

From The Power of Myth with Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyers:

Moyers: Don't you sometimes think, as you consider these stories, that you're drowning in other people's dreams?

Campbell: I don't listen to other people's dreams.

Moyers: But all these myths are other people's dreams.

Campbell: Oh, no, they're not. They are the world's dreams.

Luckily, I don't think Lilithu is calling cultural rape here.

 

[Alceste]

Looks like what you have, which is reasonable, is a problem with religious ignorance and arrogance, not paganism. There is no shortage of similarly misinformed and obstinate people in any religion, IME.

Although New-Ageism (which in my mind is distinct from paganism) does get on my nerves for similar reasons. I don't think it's possible to have a meaningful belief without any interest in being informed about what it is you are believing in. I have no problem with finding meaning in traditions from other cultures, especially when one's own culture is as bereft of options as that of the descendants of European settlers in North America, which have a choice between Christianity or nothing. IMO, cultural appropriation is inevitable in this context. People want to be spiritual, and to "own" their spirituality, but Christianity just doesn't do it for them, so they borrow from Hinduism, Buddhism, Paganism, First Nations, Taoism and whatever else appeals, calling the resulting mish-mash of beliefs something new (or old, in this case). Unfortunately, when stripped of cultural context, this "new / old" belief is meaningless, and in some cases embarrassing to behold.

 

[lilithu]

Which is part of the importance of sharing.

Sharing is done between two parties of approximately equal power, for lack of a better word. For example, if two merchants do business with each other and one learns about a tradition from the other, that is sharing. If, otoh, as I was describing in my post to Quagmire, someone takes traditions from a Native American tribe and sells them to a mass audience via seminars or books, etc without the tribe's permission, that is not "sharing." That is, imo, the newest form of colonialization. Taking the resources of another people by force for one's own benefit.

Luckily, I don't think Lilithu is calling cultural rape here.

I'm not. But I think I think it's closer to that than you think.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

...someone takes traditions from a Native American tribe and sells them to a mass audience via seminars or books, etc without the tribe's permission, that is not "sharing." That is, imo, the newest form of colonialization. Taking the resources of another people by force for one's own benefit...

That would be cultural rape.

However, the folks using the stolen resources to trace their way back to that culture and gain some personal meaning would not be.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

...calling the resulting mish-mash of beliefs something new (or old, in this case). Unfortunately, when stripped of cultural context, this "new / old" belief is meaningless, and in some cases embarrassing to behold.

Ah, but it's not meaningless. Not to the person that utilizes them.

There would be a reason the person used those elements, and they would appear to be related to that person's worldview. Mish-mash to one person may not be to another.

No one religion will be same from person to person. Folks have the right to borrow. It's in their best interest to seek the context, but the reality is, that's spiritual exploration.

In the same way that Bruce Lee suggested exploring other martial arts in order to grow as a martial artist, I think it's important for the spiritual seeker to seek out meaning in other myths in order to grow.

 

[sandandfoam]

Ideas are just ideas. If someone wants to raid my culture for ideas I don't see what difference that makes to me.
My Grandad used to say that you don't buy beer you just rent it. Ideas are like that. No-one owns them, we just have a lend of them as we pass through.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

My Grandad used to say that you don't buy beer you just rent it. Ideas are like that. No-one owns them, we just have a lend of them as we pass through.

Beer and religion just go hand-in-hand.