Paedophila

[IndigoChild]

Psychobabble. Heaven forbid that it's possible for someone to feel passionately about something without have underlying "issues".

Passion is one thing, but being so offended by a subject that they won't even discuss it, or discuss it like frothing-at-the-mouth lunatics, is possibly very telling. Not saying that he IS a pedophile or something like that, just that he does not own up to the possibility that, given the right conditions, he could be or could have been... or might have been in a past life.

It's the same with murder. Given the right circumstances, anyone could become a murderer. Honestly, murder is a far worse crime than any kind of rape... if people can admit that they could possibly one day be a murderer, why not being a child molester? Granted, no one wants to think of either possibility, but why is child molestation treated as a worse crime than murder? Why do child molesters who don't otherwise hurt their victims get longer jailtime than repeat murderers? Why do they get put on the sex offender registry (a life sentence!) when there's no "repeat murderer registry"? Why do they get castrated or chemically castrated, especially since the law KNOWS IT DOES NO GOOD?

And why does this pedophile panic make stupid things happen? For example, you can get on the sex offender registry by streaking, "whipping it out in public when drunk to take a leak," or grabbing a girl's arm to lecture her to not play in traffic after she almost got hit by a car? This society is INSANE!

Basically, if you're going to have laws against things, the punishments should make sense.

]Yes, let's take a "deep look" at why this topic offends some of us. Could it possibly be because there is something seriously wrong with someone who fantasizes about having sex with a child? These people need help....not reinforcement that what they're doing is "ok".

Well if people would stick to that view of pedophiles, that would be okay. But the plain and simple truth is that people are hypocrites about pedophiles... they say it's a mental disease, but they don't treat it like one. The "treatment" pedophiles have to undergo is more like a bullying... they're repeatedly told that they're worthless, evil monsters, even if they've never done anything illegal, and even if they've never molested a child. Hatred does not heal, because hatred is based in fear. Like God in CWG says:
"Fear hurts, Love heals."

If we really want to heal these people, then we have to use LOVE. As CWG says: "Loving someone does not necessarily mean letting them do whatever they want to." Treating child molesters and pedophiles like the scum of the earth is only going to hurt them worse... treating them as sick or misguided (but ultimately good) people will do more to heal than anything currently being done. After all, would you subject a dangerous schizophrenic to the same abuse that pedophiles get subjected to? I doubt it. All mental illnesses should be treated as such, instead of being treated as sins or choices. Be consistent at least.

How do I know? Because I have seen love heal pedophiles and child molesters. Only by using love and self-esteem boosting will they heal. Because no one does anything they think is evil, given their own view of the world, unless everyone tells them that they are evil. If even one person sees the real truth of Who They Really Are (Love), then they can be healed.

Kat

 

[IndigoChild]

Cool. I'm waiting for the picture of a moon monkey since I know quite a number of adults who are not "messed up"....myself included.

You don't get the picture until you can PROVE that you're not messed up.

For example, do you have sexual hangups? Do you have problems expressing any emotions (either by not letting them out or by letting them out inappropriately)? Do you have insecurities? Do you ever feel hopeless?

I tell you, the only humans on Earth who were not messed up in some way were Masters* like Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, and so on. And even THEY I would doubt. After all, Jesus showed doubt in his last moments. ("Oh Father, why hast thou forsaken me?")

Kat

* Master = One who has mastered Life, figured out how to live harmoniously and peacefully.

 

[IndigoChild]

As per pedophiles and child molesters, as well as murderers, see my signature.

Kat

 

[Melody]

Honestly though, what makes a truly well educated child less capable of making sex decisions than an adult who's a moron (and most adults today fit this category)?

The fact that their brain is not capable of understanding long term consequences?

“The evidence now is strong that the brain does not cease to mature until the early 20s in those rele-

vant parts that govern impulsivity, judgment,

planning for the future, foresight of conse-

quences, and other characteristics that make peo-

ple morally culpable….”

Ruben Gur, MD, PhD


Complete article here. Your comment about most adults being morons isn't worth debating.

Mistakes are not the domain of the young... plenty of adults do that too. Don't jusge all children because you happened to be an idiot when you were young. That's the problem with people today... they hate their childhood mistakes and thus hate children and childhood for it, not realizing that they're just completing the vicious circle.

You're right. Mistakes are not the domain of the young...but the protection of the young is the domain of the adults.

You're making a lot of inflammatory comments about moronic adults and people who "breed" because society expects and who hate the children they have and now assume that people hate the mistakes they made in their childhood and so hate children. What a black picture you paint of people. If that's the kind of people who populate your world, then I'm sorry for you, but it's not of my world.

 

[Melody]

For example, do you have sexual hangups? Do you have problems expressing any emotions (either by not letting them out or by letting them out inappropriately)? Do you have insecurities? Do you ever feel hopeless?

No. No. No. No.

Do I pass or do you have other questions. Still waiting on that pic.

 

[IndigoChild]

The fact that their brain is not capable of understanding long term consequences?

“The evidence now is strong that the brain does not cease to mature until the early 20s in those rele-

vant parts that govern impulsivity, judgment,

planning for the future, foresight of conse-

quences, and other characteristics that make peo-

ple morally culpable….”

Okay, then. The age of consent should be raised to 20. No, that might not be late enough. Better make it 30. Yes, if I became ruler of the world, I'd make the age of consent 30. Anyone who had sex with anyone even a minute under 30 would be immediately arrested and labeled a pedophile.

Do you see, now, the problem of an arbitrary age of consent?

You're right. Mistakes are not the domain of the young...but the protection of the young is the domain of the adults.

Oh, and they're doing just such a lovely job of it, too. Demonizing sex while idolizing violence, how brilliant! Ignoring children by leaving them to be latch-key kids who never even see their parents, SPECTACULAR! Child neglect because you don't like kids but were expected by society to breed? WILL THE SPECTACULARNESS NEVER END? My heart feels about to EXPLODE from all the love children get from adults! Gods! It's no WONDER the world is a peaceful, loving place where everyone is free and has enough food and shelter and water. Man, I have to thank the adults for doing such a remarkable job of creating Heaven on Earth!

You're making a lot of inflammatory comments about moronic adults and people who "breed" because society expects and who hate the children they have and now assume that people hate the mistakes they made in their childhood and so hate children. What a black picture you paint of people. If that's the kind of people who populate your world, then I'm sorry for you, but it's not of my world.

Something I want you to know: unlike most people, when I was a kid I mostly observed people, so I could get an objective opinion of them. Hard to be objectice when you're mixed up with them. I still work to be objective. So what I report is not an opinion, but an observation. I may taint that observation's written-ness with words of my opinion about it, but I work always to not let my opinions shape what I observe.

And I didn't say that all or even a majority of adults are that moronic, but a large number of them are. They never question society, so when society tells them to do something, they do it, even if they don't want to. It's a herd mentality. Given that humans do not naturally flock in herds, this is unnatural.

Kat

 

[IndigoChild]

No. No. No. No.

Do I pass or do you have other questions. Still waiting on that pic.

You don't have insecurities? You don't have doubts? You don't have relationship problems? You go through life completely happy and joyous at all times, no matter what? Wow! Well if that's true, then by your own admission you are better than Jesus, even if you didn't say it in so many words!

Kat

 

[IndigoChild]

No. No. No. No.

Do I pass or do you have other questions. Still waiting on that pic.

If you have a closed mind or closed heart, to ANYONE for ANY reason, then no, you can't see the moon monkey. Because a truly "not messed up" person would not have any reason to have a closed mind or heart to anyone.

I _have_ a picture of a moon monkey, but I have yet to see any evidence to convince me I can show it to you yet.

In short, NO ONE IS PERFECT, everyone is messed up, even Masters. Even GOD. And yet, at the same time, everyone IS perfect... just not perfect as most people define it, because that kind of perfect is absolutely impossible.

Kat

 

[Mr Spinkles]

That's utterly ridiculous and unfounded. Research suggests that children masturbate in the womb. Many people remember masturbating as young as they have memories - three, four, or five years of age.

What??

Could you please provide more evidence for your womb claim, besides the anectotal evidence you quoted? I would also be interested in evidence to support this "three, four, or five years of age" business.

Secondly, imagine a child takes secret pictures of themselves, and hides them. When the child grows up, and finds them, the child decides to try to sell them. Is there something intrinsically wrong with this? Yes, as a child the person may have been unable to make such a decision, but he/she did make the choice on her own as a child to take the pictures, and now, as an adult, is making the choice to sell them. I honestly can't find anything wrong with this, because if she sold them, she might help a paedophilic person keep away from real children.

Or, she might encourage a paedophilic person to act on his/her urges.

Adults should not be engaging in sexual relations with children for the same reason that adults should not loan large sums of money to children, or get children to sign legally binding contracts, or do any other activity which could have serious consequences. Children are innocent, they are inexperienced, and they are easily taken advantage of, and therefore they need to be protected.

The issue gets more gray when we ask, when does a child become an adult? Obviously there is no exact time when an inexperienced child becomes a fully-accountable adult, but as a culture we must designate some age as the transition from child to adult.

 

[Melody]

Something I want you to know: unlike most people, when I was a kid I mostly observed people, so I could get an objective opinion of them. Hard to be objectice when you're mixed up with them. I still work to be objective. So what I report is not an opinion, but an observation. I may taint that observation's written-ness with words of my opinion about it, but I work always to not let my opinions shape what I observe.

These posts of yours are all about opinions. The people *you* observed *appeared* moronic and uncaring towards children. That does not mean that all adults are moronic or that they don't love their children.

And I didn't say that all or even a majority of adults are that moronic, but a large number of them are.

Please post where you obtained these statistics....otherwise it is just your opinion...and that's fine, but realize there is a lot of room for error here.

 

[Melody]

You don't have insecurities? You don't have doubts? You don't have relationship problems? You go through life completely happy and joyous at all times, no matter what? Wow! Well if that's true, then by your own admission you are better than Jesus, even if you didn't say it in so many words!

Kat

Kat,
Life has its ups and downs. My son just told me he's dropping out of college with only two semesters to go in order to join the army. Does this make me happy? Absolutely not. Does it mean I have "issues"? Absolutely not.

There's a difference between issues and normal human emotions. I'm still waiting for the moon monkey.

 

[Melody]

If you have a closed mind or closed heart, to ANYONE for ANY reason, then no, you can't see the moon monkey. Because a truly "not messed up" person would not have any reason to have a closed mind or heart to anyone.

:biglaugh: :biglaugh:

Now how did I know you were going to say that.

 

[Melody]

Kat,

Let's move the discussion back to the topic at hand. This topic is about pedophilia and we aren't talking about 16 year olds having sex with 18 year olds. This is about adults who fantasize about *children*. For the sake of argument, let's say an 8 year old.

 

[IndigoChild]

What??

Could you please provide more evidence for your womb claim, besides the anectotal evidence you quoted? I would also be interested in evidence to support this "three, four, or five years of age" business.

Gods, I have been hearing this for YEARS from various sources, and from people's personal experiences, and this is new to you? Paying attention much?

Or, she might encourage a paedophilic person to act on his/her urges.

Child molestation is a form of rape. Rape usually happens because of unrelieved sexual frustration that the person cannot find a socially acceptable way to relieve. Some do it for power, yes, but most are simply frustrated and stressed to the point where their base instincts take over. (And any look at the natural world will show you that rape is, sadly, a natural part of the natural world. Doesn't make it right, but it happens all the same.)
Pedophilic rape, ie child molestation, is the same way as normal rape. A few do it for power, but most are just frustrated pedosexuals with no socially acceptable outlet, so they snap and let their base instincts take over. Give them some means of release (ie masturbation) and they can be okay. But for many, their imagination is just not strong enough to give them what they need to get this release.
I'm not, in any wise, saying to legalize hard core child porn, but letting simple soft-core "cp" (ie simple nude images of children) would seriously cut down on the number of pedosexuals who get frustrated enough to rape.
I know this to be true because before adult porn was legal, rapes were much more common, at least in areas low on prostitutes.

So our society thinks it's solving the problem and is only making the problem worse.

Adults should not be engaging in sexual relations with children for the same reason that adults should not loan large sums of money to children, or get children to sign legally binding contracts, or do any other activity which could have serious consequences.

o_0? You're comparing mice to firehouses there.

I'm not saying to allow child-adult sex relations either, but without some kind of legal outlet, you're only CREATING more molesters.

Of course, the biggest drop in child molestation stats would come if extramarital affairs and prostitution were legalized, as over 90% of child molestations are familial rape, usually the father.

Children are innocent

That is a pipe dream.

they are inexperienced, and they are easily taken advantage of, and therefore they need to be protected.

I can see where you're going, and I agree with it in the context of that, however, you imply that you should protect kids from all mistakes... but without mistakes, how does anyone ever learn?

The issue gets more gray when we ask, when does a child become an adult? Obviously there is no exact time when an inexperienced child becomes a fully-accountable adult, but as a culture we must designate some age as the transition from child to adult.

Must we?

No, I don't think we must. I think we *do* because it's easier. It's easier to pick an age out of the air than it is to let people be free and investigate rape accusations with an objective mind. But absolute rules do not work in our relativistic world, so we will HAVE to change eventually.

However, with the rising number of Indigos in the world, I think this topic is only going to get more complicated with time.

One thing I never understood, is why the age of consent isn't 13? I mean, teens are not children, and 13 has been a successful age of consent for thousands of years. Why did we change it?

Kat

 

[IndigoChild]

These posts of yours are all about opinions. The people *you* observed *appeared* moronic and uncaring towards children.

Well when people put their kids down and become bullies instead of loving their kids, or...
...put them on an unhealthy diet
...purposefully keep the temperature too low
...beat their children
...tell them to "suck it up, you little *****" when they complain about bullies
...ignore their children
...let their children spend all of their non-school hours alone/never seeing their parents
...break promises on purpose or put their kid down for thinking they'd keep their promise
...teach children shame of their bodies (DON'T PUT YOUR HAND THERE, YOU DIRTY CHILD!)
...give them only admonitions when they're upset (crying child is muddy and all her mom can say is "GET OUT OF HERE, you're tracking mud all over my clean floor)
...act in jealous ways, showing their jealousy of their kids' youth
...stifle a child's creativity

then yes, any sane person would call that being uncaring towards children. Hell, most of the things people like that do to their kids is illegal abuse. Being as empathic as I am, and children's emotions being so intense, their pain hurts me worse than the pain of adults. Literally... an adult can be crying in genuine pain and I feel it, but not very strongly... some wet eyes. A child cries in genuine pain and I cry along with them.

That does not mean that all adults are moronic or that they don't love their children.

I don't recall saying that all adults are moronic or don't love their children. But far too many do. Hell, even one would be one too many.

Please post where you obtained these statistics....otherwise it is just your opinion...and that's fine, but realize there is a lot of room for error here.

Which statistics, exactly? I looked over the thread as best I could and don't know which ones you're referring to. Tell me and I'll be glad to find a reliable source that says these things, even if I have to stay up all night to do it.

Kat

 

[IndigoChild]

Kat,
Life has its ups and downs. My son just told me he's dropping out of college with only two semesters to go in order to join the army. Does this make me happy? Absolutely not. Does it mean I have "issues"? Absolutely not.

It's his choice, what should it matter to you what he wants to do with his life? I can't understand why anyone would want to join the army myself, especially with this dumb fargin war that Bushy boy has waged in the name of his daddy's dubious honor, but if your wants to make that mistake, why should it matter? Why does your happiness depend on outside sources? Gods, if my happiness depended on outside sources, I'd _never_ be happy.

There's a difference between issues and normal human emotions. I'm still waiting for the moon monkey.

No, there isn't any difference. Just because you think that brooding on your suffering is normal doesn't make it so. Look at animals... their natural state is joy. They only feel other emotions when things happen that immediately affect their survival or those of their children. Once the situation is resolved, they go back to being joyous. Cautious, but joyous. Dogs are a perfect example, usually. Unless they're bred for agression or the humans have them walking on eggshells, they're okay. I tell you, sentience has shaken us out of our natural state of emoting... we are messed up by our very sentience, though it doesn't have to be that way. It IS possible to be sentient AND have normal emotions at the same time, but it has just been difficult for us thus far.

We're animals who suddenly became aware that we're were aware of ourselves. That's bound to mess anyone up, until they can figure out how to live with that awareness in a healthy way.

Kat

 

[IndigoChild]

Kat,

Let's move the discussion back to the topic at hand. This topic is about pedophilia and we aren't talking about 16 year olds having sex with 18 year olds. This is about adults who fantasize about *children*. For the sake of argument, let's say an 8 year old.

Fine then, let us do so.

I fail to see how the fantasizing alone is wrong. After all, and ye harm none, do (and think) as ye will. If they keep it to themselves and don't commit a crime because of it, where's the harm? I don't see how it's different from homosexuality, aside from the fact that it's illegal.

Kat

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Gods, I have been hearing this for YEARS from various sources, and from people's personal experiences, and this is new to you? Paying attention much?

I asked for evidence, not another anectote. Paying attention much?

Child molestation is a form of rape. Rape usually happens because of unrelieved sexual frustration that the person cannot find a socially acceptable way to relieve. Some do it for power, yes, but most are simply frustrated and stressed to the point where their base instincts take over. (And any look at the natural world will show you that rape is, sadly, a natural part of the natural world. Doesn't make it right, but it happens all the same.)
Pedophilic rape, ie child molestation, is the same way as normal rape. A few do it for power, but most are just frustrated pedosexuals with no socially acceptable outlet, so they snap and let their base instincts take over. Give them some means of release (ie masturbation) and they can be okay. But for many, their imagination is just not strong enough to give them what they need to get this release.
I'm not, in any wise, saying to legalize hard core child porn, but letting simple soft-core "cp" (ie simple nude images of children) would seriously cut down on the number of pedosexuals who get frustrated enough to rape.
I know this to be true because before adult porn was legal, rapes were much more common, at least in areas low on prostitutes.

You don't see anything wrong with stripping children down naked and taking pictures of them for profit?

Also, can you provide any evidence to support your claim that "before adult porn was legal, rapes were much more common"?

o_0? You're comparing mice to firehouses there.

I'm not saying to allow child-adult sex relations either, but without some kind of legal outlet, you're only CREATING more molesters.

And your way of protecting children from these molesters is to strip them naked and take pictures of them? Can you imagine how a full-fledged kiddy-porn industry would affect its "stars"?

Of course, the biggest drop in child molestation stats would come if extramarital affairs and prostitution were legalized, as over 90% of child molestations are familial rape, usually the father.

Facts sound more convincing when you supply a reference.

That is a pipe dream.

Do I dare ask what a "pipe dream" is?

I can see where you're going, and I agree with it in the context of that, however, you imply that you should protect kids from all mistakes... but without mistakes, how does anyone ever learn?

I'm not saying that children should be protected from all mistakes, so your question is moot. I hardly think that sex, bank loans, and legal contracts cover the scope of possible areas in which children can make mistakes.

Must we?

No, I don't think we must. I think we *do* because it's easier. It's easier to pick an age out of the air than it is to let people be free and investigate rape accusations with an objective mind. But absolute rules do not work in our relativistic world, so we will HAVE to change eventually.

So, if someone is brought to court on charges of having intercourse with a child, you think each judge should decide on a case-by-case basis whether the child was too young or not? Though this proposed system would indeed "let people be free and investigate rape accusations with an objective mind", it seems likely that it would be very inconsistent and unpredictable.

One thing I never understood, is why the age of consent isn't 13? I mean, teens are not children, and 13 has been a successful age of consent for thousands of years. Why did we change it?

Maybe because we realized that age had just been picked "out of the air".

 

[michel]

Mr Spinkles; I was as dubious as you about pre- birth children masturbating; in all fairness to those who have quoted this, I have found a link - it is up to you to decide on the veracity and accuracy of the source.

September 1996, part 1 • Volume 175 • Number 3


Ultrasonographic observation of a female fetus' sexual behavior in utero
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To the Editors:
Fetal movement offers the opportunity for observing fetal behavior in utero. Parents, curious to know their child's sex, frequently request visualization of the fetal genitalia.
During second-trimester ultrasonographic examinations it is usual to see fetuses explore their body and their environment. They handle their own feet, head, genitalia, umbilical cord, and so on.
We recently observed a female fetus at 32 weeks' gestation touching the vulva with the fingers of the right hand. The caressing movements were centered primarily on the region of the clitoris. Movements stopped after 30 to 40 seconds and started again after a few minutes. Furthermore, these slight touches were repeated and were associated with short, rapid movements of pelvis and legs. After another break, in addition to this behavior, the fetus contracted the muscles of the trunk and limbs, and then clonicotonic movements of the whole body followed. Finally, she relaxed and rested.
We observed this behavior for about 20 minutes. The mother was an active and interested witness, conversing with observers about her child's experience.
Evidence of male fetuses' excitement reflex in utero, such as erection or “masturbation” movements,1 has been previously reported.
The current observation seems to show not only that the excitement reflex can be evoked in female fetuses at the third trimester of gestation but also that the orgasmic reflex can be elicited during intrauterine life.
This would agree with the physiologic features of female sexuality: The female sexual response is separate from reproductive functions and doesn't need a full sexual maturity to be explicit.2, 3
6/8/72212

Giorgio Giorgi, MD
Center of Physiopathology of Human Reproduction, Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, University of Genova, Viale Benedetto XV, 16100 Genova, Italy
Marco Siccardi, MD
Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, “S. Paolo” Hospital, Via Genova, 17100 Savona, Italy

http://www2.us.elsevierhealth.com/scripts/om.dll/serve?action=searchDB&searchDBfor=art&artType=letter&id=aob17503a10

 

[IndigoChild]

I asked for evidence, not another anectote. Paying attention much?

My point was, you can find it anywhere if you just LOOK.

You don't see anything wrong with stripping children down naked and taking pictures of them for profit?

If there's no sex, and no sexual posing, then why not? Kids are naturally unashamed of their bodies. I don't understand why we ALL don't run around nude, weather permitting.

Also, can you provide any evidence to support your claim that "before adult porn was legal, rapes were much more common"?

No. I don't keep records of where I read things. Do you? Besides, it's at least three different sources.

And your way of protecting children from these molesters is to strip them naked and take pictures of them? Can you imagine how a full-fledged kiddy-porn industry would affect its "stars"?

If there was no actual sex, and no sexual posing, and it was all done without coercion, where's the problem?

I liken it to a tea kettle... plug the holes shut and pressure builds until it explodes. Add a few more holes, and the teapot never even whistles. Without a legal, ethical outlet for their desires, pedophiles becomes ticking time bombs. The only logical fallacy here is your assertion that they already ARE. Which is true in many cases, but only because they have no legal outlet. The mistake in the judgement, therefore, is that they are ticking time bombs by NATURE, when it is society that is making the problem worse.

Facts sound more convincing when you supply a reference.

I'll start looking for those sources, then.

Do I dare ask what a "pipe dream" is?

You've got to be kidding me. What country are you from, that you've never heard that expression before? It means "a delusion."

I'm not saying that children should be protected from all mistakes, so your question is moot. I hardly think that sex, bank loans, and legal contracts cover the scope of possible areas in which children can make mistakes.

You're putting all children in the same box. I know from experience that some kids are smart enough for some of those kinds of things. I was sexually active at 10, and I saved all my money up. I rarely if ever bought anything with it, but if I had needed a loan I feel sure I could have managed. If it was a small loan. Having a limited income limits your financial ability to have a loan, if not your mental ability.

Furthermore, are you and I defining childhood the same way? When I say "child," I mean someone under the age of 13. Once you're 13, you're an adolescent, not a child.

So, if someone is brought to court on charges of having intercourse with a child, you think each judge should decide on a case-by-case basis whether the child was too young or not?

No, whether there was consent or not. But in this system, such charges would only be brought up if rape was accused. And I wouldn't include children under 13. Once you're 13, you're no longer a child, so it makes more sense as an age of consent than some arbitrary number.

And then we would legalize sex between minors, the only exceptions being if someone is the two or more individuals have three or fewer years seperating them. So a 12 year old could still legally have sex with a 15 year old, but not a 16 year old. It's doubtful that it would happen often, though. Doesn't happen much now.

Though ultimately, laws are not the answer. Until the day comes when we all know how to behave (by operating in Love), then governing is still necessary. I just think that our current system is working the way it should, and needs to be tweaked in many ways.

Though this proposed system would indeed "let people be free and investigate rape accusations with an objective mind", it seems likely that it would be very inconsistent and unpredictable.

Not any more so than it is now. You think just because there are arbitrary law on this thing that it isn't already inconsistent and unpredictable? If you do, you haven't been paying much attention.

Kat