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OZONE - Different views?

Discussion in 'Science and Technology' started by KenS, Apr 13, 2021.

  1. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    We discovered the ozone in 1982 but, thanks to science, we were able to determine that the ozone was being depleted.

    They said it was the coolant in air-conditioning units that was causing the depletion of the ozone layer. Then, if memory serves my young mind, it was the propellent in aerosols.

    Of course, all of the world had to change those two earth destroying elements because we were about to have the earth pass away through the multiplication of cancers that would plague us. We did and in 2019 we had the SMALLEST ozone layer recorded in about 30 years.

    Now 2020 comes around and :

    2020 Antarctic ozone hole among largest, deepest in recent years | EarthSky.org

    We will die soon again.

    But wait, "This year, persistent cold temperatures and strong circumpolar winds (also known as the polar vortex) helped contribute to the formation of a large and deep Antarctic ozone hole,"...
    ..."The annual Antarctic ozone hole – the 12th-largest on record – reached its peak size for 2020 on September 20, at about 9.6 million square miles (24.8 million square km), roughly three times the area of the continental United States, Observations revealed the nearly complete elimination of ozone in a 4-mile-high (6-km-high) column of the stratosphere over the South Pole, the scientists report. Diego Loyola, from the German Aerospace Center, said in a statement:"

    No coolant, no aerosol spray cans... but simply circumpolar winds.

    Which leads me to wonder, since I know that "fear" is the greatest selling mechanism on earth, was it really all the coolants and aerosols? (Since very few years had passed and we don't know the historical and "normal" ozone holes sizes.

    Do you think it is the end of the earth because of the hole? Or is just normal for it to fluctuate?
     
  2. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    Science is hard especially when it comes to extremely complex systems.

    The real answer is that it fluctuates AND human behavior can exacerbate the fluctuation.

    That is exactly the same thing with climate change. The weather fluctuates year by year AND climate change over time affects the fluctuation.

    A good analogy is a weighted die. A perfect die has equal odds of coming up with any number. A weighted die affects the odds.

    Ozone depleting chemicals and adding greenhouse gasses to the atmosphere is exactly equivalent to weighting a die and biasing the outcome in a negative direction for us.
     
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  3. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I wish I could trust it more...
    • Climate change is the next “pandemic-like story that we’ll beat to death, but that one’s got longevity. You know what I mean? Like there’s a definitive ending to the pandemic. It’ll taper off to a point that it’s not a problem anymore. Climate change can take years, so they’ll [CNN will] probably be able to milk that quite a bit.”
    CNN Director: We Worked To Oust Trump, We Create ‘Propaganda,’ Use ‘Fear’ To Pass Climate Agenda

    It really is hard to delineate what is actual science and what is the selling of fear.
     
  4. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Seriously? The Daily Wire based on a report by Project Veritas. Could you try to find a more biased source?

    Why do some people constantly deny science?
     
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  5. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    For the same reason they deny facts that inconvenience their ideas of truth. Fear.
     
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  6. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Or many things could be more natural than we think.
     
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  7. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Horses mouth?
     
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I see a bunch of quote mining. That is a way of lying.
     
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  9. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    I believe it is a combination of the two. Humans have poluted this world from the indrustrial revolution on to today. But the nature has its own cycle too where it changes back and forth. We humans may have shifted this cycle to go faster because of our petrol cars, coal mines, and other means of human made polution, But is it only a human made problem? no i do not think so.
     
  10. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    It really is hard to delineate what is actual science and what is the selling of fear.

    No, it really isn't. When it comes to climate change there's tons of actual verifiable data to back it up. When it's simply 'selling fear' - like the claims that the last election was stolen - all you've got are hacks insisting that they have tons of evidence, but who then end up offering absolutely nothing when they get to court.
     
  11. Messianic Israelite

    Messianic Israelite Active Member

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    If memory serves me correctly, didn't Al Gore predict Manhattan to be underwater by 2013.
     
  12. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    I stick to the science media rather than the general media when it comes to science stories. Science writers have a much better ability to separate science from politics.

    You cite the 'dailywire', a right wing media outlet that is on the same par as DailyKos - in other words very slanted and not trustworthy (either of them).

    Both sides milk news stories to general eyeballs in ads and to promote a left or right agenda: "selling fear" as you aptly put it.

    That's why I try to separate what science knows from the political what we should do or not do about it. For climate change we know that greenhouse gases are increasing rapidly. We know what the greenhouse effect is - on average the climate gets hotter. We know that this is already being observed from earlier cherry blossoms in Japan, northward spreading of animals and plants that like warmer climate and so forth.

    What we should or should not do and how we should do about it is a political question. If we can separate the two, we're in better shape.
     
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  13. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    Ozone was discovered in the 1700s and the ozone layer in the atmosphere discovered in the early 1900s. The "hole" (more or a thinning really) was discovered in the 1980s, though the risk was recognised before that.

    CFCs, largely used as coolants and in aerosols and their use has largely been phased out, though the effects of those already released over the decades will continue for a while as they take time to deplete.

    As the article you linked said itself, yes, it is normal for the "hole" to fluctuate due to atmospheric conditions and the seasons. The article also points out it would be significantly larger if we hadn't taken action to reduce CFCs.
     
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  14. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    Aside from using the topic of ozone as an incidental tool, what is your actual underlying agenda / point?
     
  15. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    I do some research on climate change science and technology. What do you wish to know?
     
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  16. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Regarding the point above, please note that CFCs that are already emitted remain in the atmosphere and continue to destroy the ozone layer. So the ozone hole continues to increase on the long term and will do so for several decades more. Only after all the emitted CFCs have been destroyed by natural processes, will the ozone layer stop depleting. That is still several decades away. What this in fact shows is how past actions continue to affect the future in bad ways....
    Large, Deep Antarctic Ozone Hole in 2020
     
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  17. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    It isn't really. Actual science gets published in science journals and fear gets sold in the tabloids.
    What is a bit harder - and doesn't get taught enough - is critical thinking and intelligent media consumption. And when science illiteracy and lack of media skills meets propaganda, false conclusions are inevitable.
    And there is no solution for the current generation. Learning science and critical thinking has do be done in childhood and adolescence. Once someone is out of school s/he isn't going to start learning, especially when s/he thinks s/he already knows enough.
    For a long time solution children have to get equipped with the tools needed to process information. Only that too many adults think that "I don't understand science and I have to keep my children from understanding it."
     
  18. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    that they didn't offer that as one of the contributing reasons before.
     
  19. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    I meant more broadly or fundamentally. Is it just the ozone, I'm guessing not but perhps I'm wrong?
     
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