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Overwhelming Historical Proof: Why do you doubt Jesus?


I do stuff
Hello everyone. This is my first. Please don't hate. I've come not just to establish an old-fashioned debate, but to help some people establish some faith and maybe help someone through a tough time. First off, obviously, the debate is going to be centered around Jesus, the existence of Him (I say Him because it is my OP, and it is my personal beliefs that He is God) as God, as well as the Son of God, as well as overwhelming historical, theological, archaeological, and scientific evidence favoring the proof of God. Let's start with the simple one.

#1: The Scripture

Now, this is an obvious one. Obviously the Scriptures. I know, it's not the best start, but it's laying down the foundations. Let's start with the prophecies.

The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15 Galatians 4:4
The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed Genesis 12:3; 18:18 Acts 3:25,26
The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah Genesis 49:10 Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33
The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23
The Messiah will be the Son of God Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22
The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected) Psalm 16:10,11 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32
The Messiah crucifixion experience Psalm 22 (contains 11 prophecies—not all listed here) Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30
The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked Psalm 22:7 Luke 23:11,35-39
The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet Psalm 22:16 Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39;
John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27
The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death) Psalm 22:17 and 34:20 John 19:31-33,36
Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing Psalm 22:18 Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24
The Messiah will accused by false witnesses Psalm 35:11 Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57
The Messiah will be hated without a cause Psalm 35:19 and 69:4 John 15:23-25
The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend Psalm 41:9 John 13:18,21
The Messiah will ascend to heaven (at the right hand of God) Psalm 68:18 Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9; 2:33-35; 3:20-21; 5:31,32; 7:55-56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20,21; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Pet 3:22 . . . list goes on an on.
The Messiah will be given vinegar and gall to drink Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34; Mark 15:23; John 19:29,30
Great kings will pay homage and tribute to the Messiah Psalm 72:10,11 Matthew 2:1-11
The Messiah is a “stone the builders rejected” who will become the “head cornerstone” Psalm 118:22,23 and Isaiah 28:16 Matthew 21:42,43; Acts 4:11; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6-8
The Messiah will be a descendant of David Psalm 132:11 and Jeremiah 23:5,6; 33:15,16 Luke 1:32,33
The Messiah will be a born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35
The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee Isaiah 9:1-7 Matthew 4:12-16
The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc. Isaiah 35:5-6 Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47
The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31
The “Gospel according to Isaiah” Isaiah 52:13-53:12 Matthew, Mark, Luke, John
People will hear and not believe the “arm of the LORD” (Messiah) Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37,38
The Messiah will be rejected Isaiah 53:3 Matthew 27:20-25; Mark 15:8-14; Luke 23:18-23; John 19:14,15
The Messiah will be killed Isaiah 53:5-9 Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30
The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14
The Messiah will be buried with the rich Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42
The Messiah will be crucified with criminals Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33
The Messiah is part of the new and everlasting covenant Isaiah 55:3-4 and Jeremiah 31:31-34 Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; Hebrews 8:6-13
The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf) Isaiah 59:16 Hebrews 9:15
The Messiah has two missions Isaiah 61:1-3 (first mission ends at “. . . year of the LORD’s favor”) First mission: Luke 4:16-21; Second mission: to be fulfilled at the end of the world
The Messiah will come at a specific time Daniel 9:25-26 Galatians 4:4 and Ephesians 1:10
The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7
The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-11
The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver Zechariah 11:12,13 Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10
The Messiah will forsaken by His disciples Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31,56
The Messiah will enter the Temple with authority Malachi 3:1 Matthew 21:12 and Luke 19:45

There, after e got all of those clobber passages out of the way, if you're still not convinced, let's just look for a moment at the similarities of the gospels proclaimed in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I added in this bit because it's important to note that many people point out contradictions in the Bible. (Really, they aren't contradictions, but just aren't specific quoting, noted by the punctuation in early Scripture, but that's not important) The gospels are similar in a huge variety of ways, but just different enough to tell they had different witnesses.

#2 Who could He be?

So it always has come down to five possibilities of who Jesus is...

-A liar
-A delusional psychotic
-Someone who never made claims of Messiahship
-A great spiritual soul, not fully understood.
-The one true Messiah, the Christ come into the world

Well let's assess the first possibility, that he is a liar.

There's a simple answer to this one: he couldn't be a great teacher if he was liar. Yes, theoretically, he could just make up some phony bologna parables and life lessons and pretend to follow him, but there's key point that takes that out: all those around saw that He had committed no sin. That would mean he followed some moral philosophy, and it would make perfect sense if it would be what He preached.

So now that we saw that He wasn't a liar, let's go on to the next possibility- delusions.

A simple answer for this as well. In all of the times the disciples and citizens of each town saw him, there was no evidence to show that he suffered from any mental disorder. The only argument for this would be that, supposedly, the burning passion for God's house is only a symptom o his disorder. Except all that was described that in an act of burning desire to purify God's house, He trashed the area in righteous anger. He did not attack anyone, and if he did it was to get them out of the temple.

Now let's look at the third possibility-He never made claims of Messiah-ship.

To give a rebuttal to this point, we must give a quick look at Jesus dying at the cross. Just a quick fact: two atheist historians concluded that Jesus's dying on the cross is an actual certainty. Well, why did He die on the cross? Because of His claims of Messiah-ship.

Now, let's look at the fourth possibility- A spiritual soul, not understood fully.

This is a fair point. You cannot fully understand Jesus, His teachings, and His glory, and you can't really know what was going on in His head. You must rely on scripture alone, and deductive reasoning. As He was spiritual and faithful towards the Lord in heaven, showing capabilities of amazing things, if He was just a prophet or spiritual but not the Son of God, then He could not be a true prophet or spiritual being, because He would be a cold liar. God would have eventually told Him straight out that He wasn't the Christ and to stop acting like He was, and revealed to everyone that He wasn't.

That leaves only one possibility left: He is the chosen Messiah.

#3- The Tomb

Yes, it is obviously not the best piece of evidence, but it is noteworthy. The empty tomb of Christ in Israel has brought a lot of questions, and criticism. Let's look at this criticism individually.

-It is the wrong tomb.

Couldn't be. When Mary Magdalene found the tomb empty, Jesus's clothes were laid on the ground.

-The Romans Took The Body

Why would they? If they took the body, they would help give faith in the one belief they wanted people not to believe in with a burning passion.

-The disciples took the body.

How could they? The Romans were guarding the tomb. No one could have gotten in, and no one could have gotten in.

-Jesus simply fainted, and woke up a while after.

It would hardly seem plausible for a man with nails dug into his arms and legs, beaten, whipped, and stabbed in the side to be able to get up, move a hundred-pound boulder, and walk miles upon miles away and not be caught or die from pain and exhaustion.

#4- Saul's Convictions

This is a simple one, but during the time Saul had not been converted, he had been killing Christians for their beliefs. During this time, he had seen Jesus with his own eyes, and believed, which sparked his repentance. This means Jesus did indeed claim to be the Messiah. Not a legend.

I'm going to abruptly end this now. Ready for hate replies.
Lets say Jesus fulfilled all these nifty prophecies. How is it no one seems to know about it except the small handful of people who wrote the gospels? There are no eyewitness accounts of the existence of Jesus outside of the New Testament.



Well-Known Member
According to Josephus, scribes were officials at all levels of government. And there are other accounts in that. Even if "winners" of history who try suppress don't always succeed. I actually think we should have all of it. For example a man on the united nations peace counsel who happen to be present for every genocide writes up 6 pointed peace plans yet genocide seems to follow. They keep calling the man back with a track record like his I wouldn't be quick to do so and not. Yet he pays someone to write his own biography. Do you see what I mean?
By the way there are other accounts.


Veteran Member
I personally have no problem believing that Jesus never existed, you can learn from any story that has certain morals or spiritual meaning, the story itself doesn't need to be true, its where the story points to that matters, arguing over the story being true or not is a wast of time in my book.
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Well-Known Member
Yes that which is out there is also in there, its all One, but yes, what is seen with our senses out there is wonderful, that is why we came here from the Source, to enjoy our creations.
Also means you wouldn't be able to stop what you cant see but I'll pray for ya. Both are good for each other.


I do stuff
According to Josephus, scribes were officials at all levels of government. And there are other accounts in that. Even if "winners" of history who try suppress don't always succeed. I actually think we should have all of it. For example a man on the united nations peace counsel who happen to be present for every genocide writes up 6 pointed peace plans yet genocide seems to follow. They keep calling the man back with a track record like his I wouldn't be quick to do so and not. Yet he pays someone to write his own biography. Do you see what I mean?
By the way there are other accounts.
Quote an eye witness account.

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
According to Josephus, scribes were officials at all levels of government. And there are other accounts in that. Even if "winners" of history who try suppress don't always succeed. I actually think we should have all of it. For example a man on the united nations peace counsel who happen to be present for every genocide writes up 6 pointed peace plans yet genocide seems to follow. They keep calling the man back with a track record like his I wouldn't be quick to do so and not. Yet he pays someone to write his own biography. Do you see what I mean?
By the way there are other accounts.

Why does it need to be historically correct?
Why does Jesus need to exist?

What about his physical Crucifixion helps you spiritually?

Wouldn't it be true that your spirituality be based on the spirit of Christ and not the physical nature of his existence, historical "evidence", and miracles?

What is wrong with believing in Christ?


I'm going to stop replying, you can't really prove a religion that stems from the heart. God bless.

Perhaps a better path is asking yourself why a religion which stems from the heart is of any value? I am sure you will find something which we can agree on, have a useful debate about, teach and learn from each other.

I said I would add to this discussion by telling you why I doubt Jesus, but if you are not up for giving your thoughts on it then I don't want to post in false hopes you might read it, or try to force some sort of debate out of you.


Well-Known Member
#1: The Scripture
You're going to have a real problem trying to convince people that Biblical passages are evidence for Jesus being the Messiah, especially considering that the New Testament itself was specifically written for the purpose of selling Jesus as the Messiah...

#2 Who could He be?

So it always has come down to five possibilities of who Jesus is...

-A liar
-A delusional psychotic
-Someone who never made claims of Messiahship
-A great spiritual soul, not fully understood.
-The one true Messiah, the Christ come into the world
This might make a great sermon, but it's a crappy argument.

First of all, even if we assume your list of 5 options here being the only possible outcomes, I do hope you realize that the least likely is #5, which interestingly enough is the position that you hold.

If I told you that I was once able to levitate a toothpick above my arm for an unnatural amount of time, would I be:

  1. A liar
  2. A delusional psychotic
  3. Someone who never actually made claims of magic powers
  4. A great mystical soul, not fully understood,
  5. The one Great Magician, embodiment of supernatural abilities on Earth
If that test doesn't work for this conversation, then why does it work for Jesus?

I'd challenge you to recognize the delusions of grandeur that you hold about yourself. If that task seems too difficult, then I ask you to recognize the daily delusions that people around you have about themselves. Ego is a very powerful thing and people are prone to wild imaginations. It's not outside of the norm for regular people to believe that they are something special, is it? These personal nuances don't make you (or anyone else) a liar, a delusional psychotic, or even something close to what their delusion implies. They're just part of personal realities.

Until you can support the idea that the historical Jesus actually said or did any of the things written about in the Bible, then all of this is just wild hyperbole anyway, isn't it?

#3- The Tomb
Which tomb, exactly? Do you know, specifically, which tomb Jesus' body was placed in before it was miraculously removed, clothes gently folded on the floor?

I'm not going to go point by point here, but I will refute your claim that the Romans didn't take the body (assuming any of this happened in the first place...)

Your own Gospels talk about how the Roman guards recognized and commented on the mystery of Jesus at his death, don't they? They make clear mention of the recognition on his relation to god well before the body was lowered, wrapped, and entombed. (Matthew 27:54, Luke 23:47) Those same gospels also showed the relative ease with which they were dispatched from their post by an "angel". And historically, it's simply not true that the Romans cared one way or another about what was happening in Israel in ~40 CE. It was a hot and tumultuous political outpost, much like it is now. Your suggestion that there was this active movement against the new growing faith of Christianity is grossly mistaken. It's a delusion that Christians like to hold as it elevates the roots of their faith to something more than what they actually were.

#4- Saul's Convictions
Please cite for me where Saul/Paul has any interaction with the physical Jesus. Please validate any of Saul's claims about his life before conversion.
You won't be able to do it without stretching the limits of honesty.


Well-Known Member
Quote an eye witness account.
Iudaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit
The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate
Flavius Josephus, jewish historian.. I got to find some of things but like usual when you research lets just say Jesus, Jordan river, you get only part of the actual references like a concordance. For example I research a word and I get everything from people person experiences some hints to actual leads, to I have my own physical concordance theres a dozen more references to that word and yet online concordance only tells theres 4? People make websites and knowledge is limited.
And please, and give me a second while get past the herodian gemetria christos boy murder cult/kaba, they get alittle sunk holding that stone (don't like it) and find some of the research that I did find before including pillar with a warning to nero that didn't win the remifications after to gaius Claudius and so on..
Is There Any Evidence that Jesus Existed?
Skeptics like Ellen Johnson [former President of American Atheists] cite the “lack of secular history” for Jesus as evidence that he didn’t exist.

Yet there is very little documentation for any person from the time of Christ. Most ancient historical documents have been destroyed through the centuries, by wars, fires, and pillaging, or simply through weathering and deterioration.

According to E. M. Blaiklock, who has catalogued most of the non-Christian writings of the Roman Empire, “practically nothing exists from the time of Christ”, even for great secular leaders such as Julius Caesar.¹ Yet no historian questions Caesar’s existence.

And since he wasn’t a great political or military leader, Darrell Bock notes, “It is amazing and significant that Jesus shows up at all in the sources we have.”²

So, who are these sources Bock mentions? Which early historians who wrote of Jesus did not have a Christian agenda? First of all, let’s look to Jesus’ enemies.

Jewish Historians: The Jews had the most to gain by denying Jesus’ existence. But they always regarded him as real. “Several Jewish writings refer to Jesus as a real person whom they opposed.³

Noted Jewish historian Flavius Josephus wrote of James, “the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ.”4 If Jesus wasn’t a real person why wouldn’t Josephus have said so?

In another somewhat controversial passage, Josephus speaks more extensively of Jesus.5

At this time there was a man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified, and he died. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was thought to be the Messiah.”6

Although some of his words are in dispute, Josephus’ confirmation here of Jesus’ existence is widely accepted by scholars.7

Israeli scholar Shlomo Pines writes, “Even the most bitter opponents of Christianity never expressed any doubt as to Jesus having really lived.”8

World historian Will Durant notes that no Jew or Gentile from the first-century ever denied the existence of Jesus.9

Roman Historians: Early Roman historians wrote primarily of events and people important to their empire. Since Jesus wasn’t of immediate importance to the political or military affairs of Rome, very little Roman history referenced him. However, two important Roman historians, Tacitus and Suetonius, do acknowledge Jesus as a real person.

Tacitus (a.d. 55-120), the greatest early Roman historian, wrote that Christus (Greek for Christ) had lived during the reign of Tiberius and “suffered under Pontius Pilate, that Jesus’ teachings had already spread to Rome; and that Christians were considered criminals and tortured in a variety of ways, including crucifixion.”10

Suetonius (a.d. 69-130) wrote of “Chrestus” as an instigator. Most scholars believe this is a reference to Christ. Suetonius also wrote of Christians having been persecuted by Nero in a.d. 64.11

Roman Officials: Christians were considered enemies of Rome because of their worship of Jesus as Lord rather than Caesar. The following Roman government officials, including two Caesars, wrote letters from that perspective, mentioning Jesus and early Christian origins.12

Pliny the Younger was an imperial magistrate under Emperor Trajan. In a.d. 112, Pliny wrote to Trajan of his attempts to force Christians to renounce Christ, whom they “worshiped as a god.”

Emperor Trajan (a.d. 56-117) wrote letters mentioning Jesus and early Christian origins.

Emperor Hadrian (a.d. 76-136) wrote about Christians as followers of Jesus.

Pagan Sources: Several early pagan writers briefly mention Jesus or Christians prior to the end of the second century. These include Thallus, Phlegon, Mara Bar-Serapion and Lucian of Samosate.13 Thallus’ remarks about Jesus were written in a.d. 52, about twenty years after Christ.

In total, nine early non-Christian secular writers mention Jesus as a real person within 150 years of his death. Interestingly, that is the same number of secular writers who mention Tiberius Caesar, the Roman emperor during Jesus’ time. If we were to consider Christian and non-Christian sources, there are forty-two who mention Jesus, compared to just ten for Tiberius.14

Historical Facts about Jesus:

These early non-Christian sources provide the following facts about Jesus Christ:

  • Jesus was from Nazareth.
  • Jesus lived a wise and virtuous life.
  • Jesus was crucified in Judea under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius Caesar at Passover time, being considered the Jewish king.
  • Jesus was believed by his disciples to have died and risen from the dead three days later.
  • Jesus’ enemies acknowledged that he performed unusual feats.
  • Jesus’ disciples multiplied rapidly, spreading as far as Rome.
  • Jesus’ disciples lived moral lives and worshiped Christ as God.
This general outline of Jesus’ life agrees perfectly with the New Testament.15

Gary Habarmas notes, “In total, about one-third of these non-Christian sources date from the first century; a majority originate no later than the mid-second century.”16 According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, ”These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus.”17
website http://y-jesus.com/is-there-any-evidence-from-secular-sources-that-jesus-even-existed/

Quote an eye witness account.
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Rogue Animist
Premium Member
No, in fact it does not. Wilfull ignorance and stupid statements serve you poorly.
No, it's called skepticism. We have ancient documents written by someone who had a purpose, which have been copied and translated by other people who had other purposes and varying levels of ability through (in many cases) many generations of copies without surviving traces, which are now studied and translated from mostly later copies by modern people who have other purposes and lack full knowledge of the contexts under which they were created and/or translated over the millennia.

I appreciate the hard work that the scholars who study these things put in, but also recognize the limits on knowledge that we have and can even potentially acquire about ancient events--and the ways in which the stories have been handed down over time. When we have scholars arguing for instance over which words in the Gospels Jesus actually spoke, there is a chain of assumptions there that a true skeptic will balk at. Likewise, we read the writings by Julius Caesar, and lacking truly independent sources for many of the records, assume that the accounts are true history. Yet that rests on a chain of assumptions and rather limited independent evidence.

The same goes for virtually every ancient text or tradition. Some, of course, are better preserved than others, and have some independent evidence available in their support. But many are simply there, and that is really all we know about them.

So no, I am neither willfully ignorant, nor stupid with my statements. I am skeptical about claims about ancient texts.