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Featured Overwhelming Historical Proof: Why do you doubt Jesus?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Animore, Aug 21, 2016.

  1. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    It is a fair point, yes. I'll get back to you.
     
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  2. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Scripture is not "historical proof."
     
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  3. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    It is difficult to call any of the documents in the New Testament "historical," and to cite them as evidence of the historical existence of the individuals and events recounted is problematic at best. If one sets aside the New Testament (whichever version) and the histories of the Church, there is precious little evidence of any of the events described; that is, there is no external evidence of Jesus or his followers until the early 100s C.E. at best. It is believed that the Gospels were written between 40 and 100 years after Jesus' reputed life and death, but there is no indisputable physical evidence of their existence until much later than that. The other chapters of the NT are at best historical in the sense that they reflect the thoughts and experiences of Paul and others in the first decades after the purported death of Jesus.
     
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  4. von bek

    von bek Well-Known Member

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    Modern day society doesn't do what? Crucifixion? Give prophecies?
     
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  5. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    While I believe that there may have been someone who did inspire the Jesus stories, as for the most part what he is described as doing is really no different than any typical shaman, and we do know people who get vocal about peace and unity are prone to meeting violent ends, things such as human parthenogenesis, the dead coming back to life, and all these "miracles" are just not things that happen in real life, but are only found in stories, commonly the religious stories of countless cultures over the ages. As the Jesus story goes in the Bible, there really isn't anything new that some other virgin-birthed, miracle performing, slain and resurrected messiah and god didn't do before the Jesus stories came to be.
     
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  6. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Hang around a bit.
    That doesn't set keyboards on fire around here.
    I always capitalize Him when I am referring to anybody's version of god image because it is the polite thing to do.
    Tom
     
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  7. illykitty

    illykitty RF's pet cat

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    I think he means there's more than those four options. Here's my thoughts for instance:

    -He didn't exist. He's a complete fabrication by people who wanted to create a new religion.
    -He existed but was just some guy (or maybe a cult leader) and people deified him. People over time created myths about him and so on. Then a bunch of people voted on which myths they would codify as the religion (because as we know, there's some that didn't make it through) and the result are present day Christianities.

    There many other possibilities of what people might think. Heck one of the possible thought is that people have no thoughts about him at all. Seems a bit limited to think that those four are the only options, but that wouldn't fit the narrative...
     
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  8. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    That's only because it's totally absent, rendering the "proof" totally worthless. Who would have guessed?
     
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  9. TruthEnder

    TruthEnder Member

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    I, for one, am overwhelmed by this historical proof of Jesus. Why do I doubt Jesus anyway?

    I'll come back to this question with more insight.
     
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  10. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    I have edited in more historical evidence, archaeological evidence, and ruled in another possibility of Him being a prophet or someone spiritual but not the Christ.
     
  11. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    Check the edit.
     
  12. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    Check the edit.
     
  13. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    Check the edit.
     
  14. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    As I said: worthless.
     
  15. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    I gave my thoughts on that in my edit.
     
  16. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    Then clearly you're as stubborn as a mule.
     
  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Please read this in full. Take your time. It's not a challenge just giving you an insight.

    This would all have to rest on if the opposing party believes scripture is a common foundation to build our debate on. Since scripture isn't a universal means to establish debates (but personal, by no means), are there other sources that support your points about whether he is delusional, teacher, messiah, or true messiah?

    Then, once you find the sources that "say" this, can you cross-reference these claims with miracles that take place that are not based on synchronicity and a person's belief?

    For example, I am a Spiritualist (I commune with the spirits for lack of better words). I follow The Buddha (not formally a Buddhist yet), I believe that our source of knowledge and what we perceive as the heart are from the mind. That's our foundation.

    I can give you testimony of my grandmothers holding me back from getting hit by a car. I can give you a testimony that my prayers to the spirits helped my father in his health from liver failure.

    What does that mean to you in a debate?

    Even more so, I can give you sutras (Buddha's discourses) that explain the nature of life and where our motivations etc come from. I can explain the role of what a Buddha is from a Mahayana perspective. I can even relate it to reality.

    What does this mean to you?

    In the former, I can't give you outside sources that support my point just as you can't with god. Spirits and god (and Jesus/spirit/god) does not exist the way we can prove it historically. We can only say "other people say this" or say "because X happened then it must be true."

    What does that mean to other people here that will challenge your OP?

    On the other hand, I can back up Buddhist teachings with outside sources and how it relates to reality even if people don't see it from the teachings of The Buddha.

    That can't be done in Christianity. Buddhism is a mind-faith. Christianity is a heart-faith.

    So to say you can claim Jesus/spirit/god exists historically is a claim just as Paul made a claim and every other person.

    Once we realize these spirit-tual beliefs are personal and not objective (like Buddhism), then we don't need to find ways for others to understand why and how they exist and are true. They come from us (or from god or from Joe Smoe). Once we stop making people understand spirit-uality, then what is there more to say?
     
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  18. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    Personally, I am not going to go back and keep rereading edits--which you have not clearly marked--on your OP to find out if and/or how you responded to various people's questions/points.
     
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  19. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Does your flavor of Christianity understand the difference between attacking the claim and attacking the person?
     
  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    That's actually a good and interesting book by the way. ;)
     
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