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Featured Overwhelming Historical Proof: Why do you doubt Jesus?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Animore, Aug 21, 2016.

  1. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    Hello everyone. This is my first. Please don't hate. I've come not just to establish an old-fashioned debate, but to help some people establish some faith and maybe help someone through a tough time. First off, obviously, the debate is going to be centered around Jesus, the existence of Him (I say Him because it is my OP, and it is my personal beliefs that He is God) as God, as well as the Son of God, as well as overwhelming historical, theological, archaeological, and scientific evidence favoring the proof of God. Let's start with the simple one.

    #1: The Scripture

    Now, this is an obvious one. Obviously the Scriptures. I know, it's not the best start, but it's laying down the foundations. Let's start with the prophecies.

    The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15 Galatians 4:4
    The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed Genesis 12:3; 18:18 Acts 3:25,26
    The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah Genesis 49:10 Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33
    The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23
    The Messiah will be the Son of God Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22
    The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected) Psalm 16:10,11 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32
    The Messiah crucifixion experience Psalm 22 (contains 11 prophecies—not all listed here) Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30
    The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked Psalm 22:7 Luke 23:11,35-39
    The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet Psalm 22:16 Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39;
    John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27
    The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death) Psalm 22:17 and 34:20 John 19:31-33,36
    Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing Psalm 22:18 Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24
    The Messiah will accused by false witnesses Psalm 35:11 Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57
    The Messiah will be hated without a cause Psalm 35:19 and 69:4 John 15:23-25
    The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend Psalm 41:9 John 13:18,21
    The Messiah will ascend to heaven (at the right hand of God) Psalm 68:18 Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9; 2:33-35; 3:20-21; 5:31,32; 7:55-56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20,21; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Pet 3:22 . . . list goes on an on.
    The Messiah will be given vinegar and gall to drink Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34; Mark 15:23; John 19:29,30
    Great kings will pay homage and tribute to the Messiah Psalm 72:10,11 Matthew 2:1-11
    The Messiah is a “stone the builders rejected” who will become the “head cornerstone” Psalm 118:22,23 and Isaiah 28:16 Matthew 21:42,43; Acts 4:11; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6-8
    The Messiah will be a descendant of David Psalm 132:11 and Jeremiah 23:5,6; 33:15,16 Luke 1:32,33
    The Messiah will be a born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35
    The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee Isaiah 9:1-7 Matthew 4:12-16
    The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc. Isaiah 35:5-6 Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47
    The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31
    The “Gospel according to Isaiah” Isaiah 52:13-15:12 Matthew, Mark, Luke, John
    People will hear and not believe the “arm of the LORD” (Messiah) Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37,38
    The Messiah will be rejected Isaiah 53:3 Matthew 27:20-25; Mark 15:8-14; Luke 23:18-23; John 19:14,15
    The Messiah will be killed Isaiah 53:5-9 Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30
    The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14
    The Messiah will be buried with the rich Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42
    The Messiah will be crucified with criminals Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33
    The Messiah is part of the new and everlasting covenant Isaiah 55:3-4 and Jeremiah 31:31-34 Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; Hebrews 8:6-13
    The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf) Isaiah 59:16 Hebrews 9:15
    The Messiah has two missions Isaiah 61:1-3 (first mission ends at “. . . year of the LORD’s favor”) First mission: Luke 4:16-21; Second mission: to be fulfilled at the end of the world
    The Messiah will come at a specific time Daniel 9:25-26 Galatians 4:4 and Ephesians 1:10
    The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7
    The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-11
    The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver Zechariah 11:12,13 Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10
    The Messiah will forsaken by His disciples Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31,56
    The Messiah will enter the Temple with authority Malachi 3:1 Matthew 21:12 and Luke 19:45

    There, after e got all of those clobber passages out of the way, if you're still not convinced, let's just look for a moment at the similarities of the gospels proclaimed in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I added in this bit because it's important to note that many people point out contradictions in the Bible. (Really, they aren't contradictions, but just aren't specific quoting, noted by the punctuation in early Scripture, but that's not important) The gospels are similar in a huge variety of ways, but just different enough to tell they had different witnesses.

    #2 Who could He be?

    So it always has come down to five possibilities of who Jesus is...

    -A liar
    -A delusional psychotic
    -Someone who never made claims of Messiahship
    -A great spiritual soul, not fully understood.
    -The one true Messiah, the Christ come into the world

    Well let's assess the first possibility, that he is a liar.

    There's a simple answer to this one: he couldn't be a great teacher if he was liar. Yes, theoretically, he could just make up some phony bologna parables and life lessons and pretend to follow him, but there's key point that takes that out: all those around saw that He had committed no sin. That would mean he followed some moral philosophy, and it would make perfect sense if it would be what He preached.

    So now that we saw that He wasn't a liar, let's go on to the next possibility- delusions.

    A simple answer for this as well. In all of the times the disciples and citizens of each town saw him, there was no evidence to show that he suffered from any mental disorder. The only argument for this would be that, supposedly, the burning passion for God's house is only a symptom o his disorder. Except all that was described that in an act of burning desire to purify God's house, He trashed the area in righteous anger. He did not attack anyone, and if he did it was to get them out of the temple.

    Now let's look at the third possibility-He never made claims of Messiah-ship.

    To give a rebuttal to this point, we must give a quick look at Jesus dying at the cross. Just a quick fact: two atheist historians concluded that Jesus's dying on the cross is an actual certainty. Well, why did He die on the cross? Because of His claims of Messiah-ship.

    Now, let's look at the fourth possibility- A spiritual soul, not understood fully.

    This is a fair point. You cannot fully understand Jesus, His teachings, and His glory, and you can't really know what was going on in His head. You must rely on scripture alone, and deductive reasoning. As He was spiritual and faithful towards the Lord in heaven, showing capabilities of amazing things, if He was just a prophet or spiritual but not the Son of God, then He could not be a true prophet or spiritual being, because He would be a cold liar. God would have eventually told Him straight out that He wasn't the Christ and to stop acting like He was, and revealed to everyone that He wasn't.

    That leaves only one possibility left: He is the chosen Messiah.

    #3- The Tomb

    Yes, it is obviously not the best piece of evidence, but it is noteworthy. The empty tomb of Christ in Israel has brought a lot of questions, and criticism. Let's look at this criticism individually.

    -It is the wrong tomb.

    Couldn't be. When Mary Magdalene found the tomb empty, Jesus's clothes were laid on the ground.

    -The Romans Took The Body

    Why would they? If they took the body, they would help give faith in the one belief they wanted people not to believe in with a burning passion.

    -The disciples took the body.

    How could they? The Romans were guarding the tomb. No one could have gotten in, and no one could have gotten in.

    -Jesus simply fainted, and woke up a while after.

    It would hardly seem plausible for a man with nails dug into his arms and legs, beaten, whipped, and stabbed in the side to be able to get up, move a hundred-pound boulder, and walk miles upon miles away and not be caught or die from pain and exhaustion.

    #4- Saul's Convictions

    This is a simple one, but during the time Saul had not been converted, he had been killing Christians for their beliefs. During this time, he had seen Jesus with his own eyes, and believed, which sparked his repentance. This means Jesus did indeed claim to be the Messiah. Not a legend.



    I'm going to abruptly end this now. Ready for hate replies.
     
    #1 Animore, Aug 21, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
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  2. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    What if Jesus existed, but the legend you are referring to was created afterwards?
    What if it were a sort of docudrama, fiction wrapped around actual events?

    The character Jesus described by Christians isn't necessarily, or even plausibly, limited to Lewis' "Lord, Liar, Lunatic".
    Legend is the most plausible explanation to those of us more interested in reality than ideological theology.

    Welcome to RF. Nice to meet you. :)
    Tom
     
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  3. Kueid

    Kueid Avant-garde

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    I'm trying to find the "historical" part of this "proof"
     
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  4. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    When you posted this comment, I'm guessing you didn't think about the possibility of this "ideological theology" could be truth. Let's assess this reply.

    The claims that Jesus made could not be false, because of the simple proof written in a letter by Paul, then called Saul.. Ironically, he didn't know that it would be proof for Jesus's existence as a deity.

    The letter summarized is Paul writing a letter to Theophilus, explaining the passive natures of the people he met that were claiming, in his mind, outrageous things (sound familiar?) and he, obviously, didn't believe them, so he had been killing them. Remember the clobber passages in Acts where Paul was talking with Jesus? That verifies the idea that Jesus was still roaming around back then. And why did early-day christians believe that He was the Christ? The simple answer is...

    he claimed that He was!

    And, as this "legend" told, why was Jesus crucified?

    Because He claimed He was the Messiah!

    If the last sentence in your debate was sarcasm, I'm curious what could have triggered it if it was an act of aggression. I'm going with, it's irony.

    Hope this was helpful. God bless.
     
  5. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
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    No hate from me. But what about other options like mine added to the list.

    -A great spiritual soul not always fully understood

    Also your discussion leans heavily on the term Messiah. From Webster's Dictionary:

    Full Definition of messiah
    1. 1 capitalized a : the expected king and deliverer of the Jewsb : jesus 1

    2. 2 : a professed or accepted leader of some hope or cause

    Certainly He didn't fulfill definition 1 in any worldly sense. Definition 2 seems better but what do we see as His 'hope or cause'. To me it is advancing spirituality in love and compassion. Do you perhaps see it as offering salvation from God's punishment? If so, I would argue this does not hold up to evidence, logic and analysis.
     
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  6. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Wow.
    I have seen the movie Titanic.
    What you present above is much like that movie as far as "historical proof" goes.
     
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  7. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    First off, I find it perfectly fine if you do not call it proof. Obviously, any argument can be rebuttable with the right amount of evidence. I can't convince someone who is fir in their beliefs. However, I will quickly say that the prophecies were meant to be theoretical and historical proof.
     
  8. von bek

    von bek Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps some of the Jewish members here on RF will respond to the prophecies you listed as foretelling the coming of Jesus. Many of the verses you listed are understood differently in a Jewish context.
     
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  9. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    You have read revelations, I'm assuming. Then, assuming you have, I'm assuming you read the clobber passages about Jesus's return. No, Jesus did not accomplish that goal in His ministry, and He obviously never meant to. When He returns is the set date. I used the term messiah loosely, and I'd say in a Christian view, Jesus can be described as both an accepted leader and deliverer of the Jews.
     
  10. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    And I understand that. Nevertheless, the prophecies are quite specific, especially the prophecy foretelling His crucifixion. Modern-day society doesn't just do that anymore. God bless.
     
  11. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    I suspect you completely missed the point.
    It was not the "proof" part we are wondering about.
    It is the "historical" part.
     
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  12. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    No, it wasn't. I enjoy exchanges with people I disagree with. People I already agree with are fine in real life, although there are next to none of them. They are not interesting enough to keep my attention on internet forums, though.
    Tom
     
  13. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    Yet you do not have any rebuttal except that my evidence is that of an historically inaccurate movie, with no solid evidence to prove such. God bless.
     
  14. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    Thanks for clarifying. Also, thank you for the warm welcome, I'm very appreciative. :)

    God bless.
     
  15. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
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    But do you agree my option '-A great spiritual soul not always fully understood' merits addition to your list of possibilities? The not 'fully understood' can logically also include the writings compiled into the Bible.
     
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  16. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    *yawn*
    I am still waiting for you start with the "historical" part...
    You have not presented anything in which to rebut.
    With you taking this long to start with the "historical" part, I am having serious doubts about the "overwhelming" part.....

    Thus far your thread title looks to be nothig but a bait and switch
     
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  17. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    Everyone, before you start setting your keyboard on fire because I said, "God bless" I did not say it as an act of mockery, I simply said it because I truly wish for my God in heaven's loving-kindness to be upon you. Cheers.
     
  18. The Emperor of Mankind

    The Emperor of Mankind Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic

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    :facepalm: ... that's four options.
     
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  19. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    It seems you're blind. The scripture is my historical proof, but just for you, I'll add more. I'll get back to you.
     
  20. Animore

    Animore Active Member

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    Thank you for pointing that out.
     
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