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Out of my depth

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
My brother in law is a paranoid schizophrenic, diagnosed close on 20 years ago. It took several years to find the medication that best suites him, during which time he was either totally manic or so far out of it that he was essentially a vegetable.

Then he changed to Aripiprazole, his voices and hallucinations reduced considerably, he was able to concentrate enabling him to return to work.

Unfortunately he could only manage a few months before the paranoia turned against his work colleagues, after a year he couldn't stand any more and left the job.

He is very talented and easily picked up more employment with the same story. He'd got used to this way of life, work a year and move one. It actually suited him because he would find new challenges to concentrate on.

Last November he decided the Aripiprazole were not doing him any good so decided to reduce his medication slowly (against his medical teams advice). He asked me to tell him what differences i saw in him.

I speak to him via phone several times per day, i dont know why but he seems to trust me and, many years ago, asked that i could be his unofficial carer and sounding board.

I saw the paranoia increase, his moods changed, he became angry very easily. Voices returned. But no matter how i told him he would not accept that he was relapsing. He was still functioning but on the edge, though he said he felt much better and could think.

About 2 months ago he took the second step and reduced his medication more. He is now on half the dose that was recommended for him.

I cannot speak to him anymore, he phones or i phone him and he rants, he is very angry, blaming the NHS for putting him through this hell for 20 years. He denies he has schizophrenia, blaming everyone he sees for his voices. It goes very deep into every aspect of his life from the person on the street talking to a friend, an overhead neighbour, to Biden, addressing the nation on the news.

He has fired his medical team for suggesting he is having a relapse. Fired his doctor for the same reason. I am scared that if i tell him what i think that he will shut the door on me too leaving him with no one for support.

I've had one year (uni elective) of psychology education, not enough by any means. I am lost, I don't know what to do, i am totally out of my depth.

I have booked a flight to the UK in a couple of weeks, i just hope that a face to face chatey help. But given his current state i really don't think it will.

I don't expect replies to this post, i just needed to vent. But if anyone does have valid suggestions i will welcome them.
 

Geoff-Allen

Resident megalomaniac
My brother in law is a paranoid schizophrenic, diagnosed close on 20 years ago. It took several years to find the medication that best suites him, during which time he was either totally manic or so far out of it that he was essentially a vegetable.

Then he changed to Aripiprazole, his voices and hallucinations reduced considerably, he was able to concentrate enabling him to return to work.

Unfortunately he could only manage a few months before the paranoia turned against his work colleagues, after a year he couldn't stand any more and left the job.

He is very talented and easily picked up more employment with the same story. He'd got used to this way of life, work a year and move one. It actually suited him because he would find new challenges to concentrate on.

Last November he decided the Aripiprazole were not doing him any good so decided to reduce his medication slowly (against his medical teams advice). He asked me to tell him what differences i saw in him.

I speak to him via phone several times per day, i dont know why but he seems to trust me and, many years ago, asked that i could be his unofficial carer and sounding board.

I saw the paranoia increase, his moods changed, he became angry very easily. Voices returned. But no matter how i told him he would not accept that he was relapsing. He was still functioning but on the edge, though he said he felt much better and could think.

About 2 months ago he took the second step and reduced his medication more. He is now on half the dose that was recommended for him.

I cannot speak to him anymore, he phones or i phone him and he rants, he is very angry, blaming the NHS for putting him through this hell for 20 years. He denies he has schizophrenia, blaming everyone he sees for his voices. It goes very deep into every aspect of his life from the person on the street talking to a friend, an overhead neighbour, to Biden, addressing the nation on the news.

He has fired his medical team for suggesting he is having a relapse. Fired his doctor for the same reason. I am scared that if i tell him what i think that he will shut the door on me too leaving him with no one for support.

I've had one year (uni elective) of psychology education, not enough by any means. I am lost, I don't know what to do, i am totally out of my depth.

I have booked a flight to the UK in a couple of weeks, i just hope that a face to face chatey help. But given his current state i really don't think it will.

I don't expect replies to this post, i just needed to vent. But if anyone does have valid suggestions i will welcome them.

Hi Christine

You may remember I also have a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia and have written a LOT about my experiences - both good and bad over the past 38 years.

I am not sure if I can offer you any advice just wishing you and your brother in law all the best?

I am now stable on Olanzapine which is a newer med for psychosis. A few years back I went "cold turkey" on it - a little like your brother in law and the result was not a pretty sight.

I was convinced the drugs were inhibiting my spiritual progress and were poisoning my body - nobody really knows the LONG term effects of these drugs because they are so new.

I experienced a LOT of trauma when I suddenly ceased the drugs and eventually was eventually forced to re-start my meds or I would have completely lost all of my marbles.

I am rambling a bit ... back to your situation - your brother in law is lucky to have you as a support.

Many people with schizophrenia have little or no support because people are afraid of the psychotic thinking & behaviour. It's a lot to deal with! Especially the paranoia & delusions & disturbed thinking & emotions.

Schizophrenia is very complex and there is much debate how to best treat it. If you tried a google search you can find ANY number of wildly different viewpoints - some quite extreme! My own thoughts on the matter have evolved dramatically over the past 3 decades. But this is not the time or place to go into my own paranoid past!

You may have a tough time convincing your brother in law that he is sick and needs to restart his meds if he wants to avoid a complete disaster.

I hope I am not freaking you out but the danger is real. A delusion can seem awfully real and paranoia can make you mistrust even your closest relatives. I have been luckier than most and would love to help out if I could.

I am not sure if I have made you any more or less worried.

Here in Australia you can be forced to take meds & receive treatment if the shrinks agree that you are a danger to yourself or the general public. Not sure of the laws where you are?

You may need to get more expert advice than I can offer.

Anyway, I hope you can get help for your brother in law. It is a tricky situation you are in because paranoia distorts one's view of reality and the people around you.

Wishing you all the best and feel free to pick my brain if you feel like venting or whatever.

It is a sheer fluke I found your post - I have been not visiting this forum as much as I did in the past.

Best wishes for you and your brother in law!

Geoff
 
Last edited:

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
My brother in law is a paranoid schizophrenic, diagnosed close on 20 years ago. It took several years to find the medication that best suites him, during which time he was either totally manic or so far out of it that he was essentially a vegetable.

Then he changed to Aripiprazole, his voices and hallucinations reduced considerably, he was able to concentrate enabling him to return to work.

Unfortunately he could only manage a few months before the paranoia turned against his work colleagues, after a year he couldn't stand any more and left the job.

He is very talented and easily picked up more employment with the same story. He'd got used to this way of life, work a year and move one. It actually suited him because he would find new challenges to concentrate on.

Last November he decided the Aripiprazole were not doing him any good so decided to reduce his medication slowly (against his medical teams advice). He asked me to tell him what differences i saw in him.

I speak to him via phone several times per day, i dont know why but he seems to trust me and, many years ago, asked that i could be his unofficial carer and sounding board.

I saw the paranoia increase, his moods changed, he became angry very easily. Voices returned. But no matter how i told him he would not accept that he was relapsing. He was still functioning but on the edge, though he said he felt much better and could think.

About 2 months ago he took the second step and reduced his medication more. He is now on half the dose that was recommended for him.

I cannot speak to him anymore, he phones or i phone him and he rants, he is very angry, blaming the NHS for putting him through this hell for 20 years. He denies he has schizophrenia, blaming everyone he sees for his voices. It goes very deep into every aspect of his life from the person on the street talking to a friend, an overhead neighbour, to Biden, addressing the nation on the news.

He has fired his medical team for suggesting he is having a relapse. Fired his doctor for the same reason. I am scared that if i tell him what i think that he will shut the door on me too leaving him with no one for support.

I've had one year (uni elective) of psychology education, not enough by any means. I am lost, I don't know what to do, i am totally out of my depth.

I have booked a flight to the UK in a couple of weeks, i just hope that a face to face chatey help. But given his current state i really don't think it will.

I don't expect replies to this post, i just needed to vent. But if anyone does have valid suggestions i will welcome them.
Perhaps Clozapine may help?

Clozapine is the "drug of last resort" for people with schizophrenia who do not have much success with other antipsychotics

I've been on Clozapine for around 15 years and it has worked wonders for me

In comparison to all of the other meds I've been on

(if you think I'm bad now you should have seen me around 15 years ago!)
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Perhaps Clozapine may help?

Clozapine is the "drug of last resort" for people with schizophrenia who do not have much success with other antipsychotics

I've been on Clozapine for around 15 years and it has worked wonders for me

In comparison to all of the other meds I've been on

(if you think I'm bad now you should have seen me around 15 years ago!)

He's been there clozapine for 3 years before he went on aripiprazole. They vegged him out.

And really compared with my brother in law at the moment, you are not bad.
 

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
Can't add anything other than based on my experience working in a hospital that had a mental health and detox ward, it is not uncommon for paranoid schizophrenics to do exactly what your brother-in-law did with his medication as well as his response to everything else after reducing or removing himself his medication. Sorry I could be of no assistance, and short of a medical/psychiatric professional I'm not sure who could
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Can't add anything other than based on my experience working in a hospital that had a mental health and detox ward, it is not uncommon for paranoid schizophrenics to do exactly what your brother-in-law did with his medication as well as his response to everything else after reducing or removing himself his medication.

Cheers, I've read that. To be brutal i hope that he can be taken in to hospital but it's not an option in the UK unless he is a danger to himself and to others. I am thankful he is not violent. But it would be nice if the mental health services could intervine
 

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
Cheers, I've read that. To be brutal i hope that he can be taken in to hospital but it's not an option in the UK unless he is a danger to himself and to others. I am thankful he is not violent. But it would be nice if the mental health services could intervine

In NYS I believe a family member can have them committed, but I'n not 100% sure. But if they are a danger to themselves or others they get brought in, generally by police. Those are the ones I dealt with, the ones the police brought in
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Hi Christine

You may remember I also have a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia and have written a LOT about my experiences - both good and bad over the past 38 years.

I am not sure if I can offer you any advice just wishing you and your brother in law all the best?

I am now stable on Olanzapine which is a newer med for psychosis. A few years back I went "cold turkey" on it - a little like your brother in law and the result was not a pretty sight.

I was convinced the drugs were inhibiting my spiritual progress and were poisoning my body - nobody really knows the LONG term effects of these drugs because they are so new.

I experienced a LOT of trauma when I suddenly ceased the drugs and eventually was eventually forced to re-start my meds or I would have completely lost all of my marbles.

I am rambling a bit ... back to your situation - your brother in law is lucky to have you as a support.

Many people with schizophrenia have little or no support because people are afraid of the psychotic thinking & behaviour. It's a lot to deal with! Especially the paranoia & delusions & disturbed thinking & emotions.

Schizophrenia is very complex and there is much debate how to best treat it. If you tried a google search you can find ANY number of wildly different viewpoints - some quite extreme! My own thoughts on the matter have evolved dramatically over the past 3 decades. But this is not the time or place to go into my own paranoid past!

You may have a tough time convincing your brother in law that he is sick and needs to restart his meds if he wants to avoid a complete disaster.

I hope I am not freaking you out but the danger is real. A delusion can seem awfully real and paranoia can make you mistrust even your closest relatives. I have been luckier than most and would love to help out if I could.

I am not sure if I have made you any more or less worried.

Here in Australia you can be forced to take meds & receive treatment if the shrinks agree that you are a danger to yourself or the general public. Not sure of the laws where you are?

You may need to get more expert advice than I can offer.

Anyway, I hope you can get help for your brother in law. It is a tricky situation you are in because paranoia distorts one's view of reality and the people around you.

Wishing you all the best and feel free to pick my brain if you feel like venting or whatever.

It is a sheer fluke I found your post - I have been not visiting this forum as much as I did in the past.

Best wishes for you and your brother in law!

Geoff

Thanks for your views, something to think about.

Olanzapine was one of the first drugs he was prescribed, they did stabilise him some but not to the extent he could function in the world.

Yes im freaked out a little but not by your post, but his situation and not having what is needed to help, it's an unusual situation for me to be in.
 

syo

Well-Known Member
I am schizophrenic paranoid. It took me 10 years to accept taking my drugs properly. I wish to you everything to be ok.
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
Cheers, I've read that. To be brutal i hope that he can be taken in to hospital but it's not an option in the UK unless he is a danger to himself and to others. I am thankful he is not violent. But it would be nice if the mental health services could intervine
With professional intervention it is, I believe, an option that he is sectioned. From what you say, I would think it quite likely. If close family or friends push for it that option is more likely. (What I say is based on my mother and dementia - to be blunt, if I had not intervened she would quite possibly have managed to kill herself).
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
My brother in law is a paranoid schizophrenic, diagnosed close on 20 years ago. It took several years to find the medication that best suites him, during which time he was either totally manic or so far out of it that he was essentially a vegetable.

Then he changed to Aripiprazole, his voices and hallucinations reduced considerably, he was able to concentrate enabling him to return to work.

Unfortunately he could only manage a few months before the paranoia turned against his work colleagues, after a year he couldn't stand any more and left the job.

He is very talented and easily picked up more employment with the same story. He'd got used to this way of life, work a year and move one. It actually suited him because he would find new challenges to concentrate on.

Last November he decided the Aripiprazole were not doing him any good so decided to reduce his medication slowly (against his medical teams advice). He asked me to tell him what differences i saw in him.

I speak to him via phone several times per day, i dont know why but he seems to trust me and, many years ago, asked that i could be his unofficial carer and sounding board.

I saw the paranoia increase, his moods changed, he became angry very easily. Voices returned. But no matter how i told him he would not accept that he was relapsing. He was still functioning but on the edge, though he said he felt much better and could think.

About 2 months ago he took the second step and reduced his medication more. He is now on half the dose that was recommended for him.

I cannot speak to him anymore, he phones or i phone him and he rants, he is very angry, blaming the NHS for putting him through this hell for 20 years. He denies he has schizophrenia, blaming everyone he sees for his voices. It goes very deep into every aspect of his life from the person on the street talking to a friend, an overhead neighbour, to Biden, addressing the nation on the news.

He has fired his medical team for suggesting he is having a relapse. Fired his doctor for the same reason. I am scared that if i tell him what i think that he will shut the door on me too leaving him with no one for support.

I've had one year (uni elective) of psychology education, not enough by any means. I am lost, I don't know what to do, i am totally out of my depth.

I have booked a flight to the UK in a couple of weeks, i just hope that a face to face chatey help. But given his current state i really don't think it will.

I don't expect replies to this post, i just needed to vent. But if anyone does have valid suggestions i will welcome them.
As ignorant as I am on the subject, @ChristineM, I have nothing to offer except my hope that you will be as strong and patient as you need to be. The very best of luck to you.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
With professional intervention it is, I believe, an option that he is sectioned. From what you say, I would think it quite likely. If close family or friends push for it that option is more likely. (What I say is based on my mother and dementia - to be blunt, if I had not intervened she would quite possibly have managed to kill herself).

It's something we are discussing but it's a tricky situation. He would disown family, (worth it), and have his solicitor fight any attempt to section him. It would be far easier if he were the violent type. ;-)
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
It's something we are discussing but it's a tricky situation. He would disown family, (worth it), and have his solicitor fight any attempt to section him. It would be far easier if he were the violent type. ;-)
In my ignorance... not sure a solicitor overrides the powers of the Mental Health Act (1983). The police, psychiatrists, social workers and senior care staff are the people that have the powers to try to save the life of the person concerned.
- Mental Health Act
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
In my ignorance... not sure a solicitor overrides the powers of the Mental Health Act (1983). The police, psychiatrists, social workers and senior care staff are the people that have the powers to try to save the life of the person concerned.
- Mental Health Act

Of course, however it would be very messy and his parents, his brother (hubby) and myself don't think sectioning is the best way to go yet. We would much rather convince him he needs help than force that help on him. However it may come to that.
 

an anarchist

Your local anarchist.
My brother in law is a paranoid schizophrenic, diagnosed close on 20 years ago. It took several years to find the medication that best suites him, during which time he was either totally manic or so far out of it that he was essentially a vegetable.

Then he changed to Aripiprazole, his voices and hallucinations reduced considerably, he was able to concentrate enabling him to return to work.

Unfortunately he could only manage a few months before the paranoia turned against his work colleagues, after a year he couldn't stand any more and left the job.

He is very talented and easily picked up more employment with the same story. He'd got used to this way of life, work a year and move one. It actually suited him because he would find new challenges to concentrate on.

Last November he decided the Aripiprazole were not doing him any good so decided to reduce his medication slowly (against his medical teams advice). He asked me to tell him what differences i saw in him.

I speak to him via phone several times per day, i dont know why but he seems to trust me and, many years ago, asked that i could be his unofficial carer and sounding board.

I saw the paranoia increase, his moods changed, he became angry very easily. Voices returned. But no matter how i told him he would not accept that he was relapsing. He was still functioning but on the edge, though he said he felt much better and could think.

About 2 months ago he took the second step and reduced his medication more. He is now on half the dose that was recommended for him.

I cannot speak to him anymore, he phones or i phone him and he rants, he is very angry, blaming the NHS for putting him through this hell for 20 years. He denies he has schizophrenia, blaming everyone he sees for his voices. It goes very deep into every aspect of his life from the person on the street talking to a friend, an overhead neighbour, to Biden, addressing the nation on the news.

He has fired his medical team for suggesting he is having a relapse. Fired his doctor for the same reason. I am scared that if i tell him what i think that he will shut the door on me too leaving him with no one for support.

I've had one year (uni elective) of psychology education, not enough by any means. I am lost, I don't know what to do, i am totally out of my depth.

I have booked a flight to the UK in a couple of weeks, i just hope that a face to face chatey help. But given his current state i really don't think it will.

I don't expect replies to this post, i just needed to vent. But if anyone does have valid suggestions i will welcome them.

hello, so before I was able to convince myself to take aripiparzole and get proper treatment for my schizophrenia, I was self medicating with herbs. I would get them in either alcoholic tinctures, but also in tea form.
I recommend making him some tea with valerian root, passionflower, and schisandra berry, plus something to make it tasty. This should help mildly with psychosis, and it can be a lot less intimidating for him to try than medicine and doctors and alll of that.
 

Geoff-Allen

Resident megalomaniac
Thanks for your views, something to think about.

Olanzapine was one of the first drugs he was prescribed, they did stabilise him some but not to the extent he could function in the world.

Yes im freaked out a little but not by your post, but his situation and not having what is needed to help, it's an unusual situation for me to be in.

Hi Christine

It is only natural if you feel a bit powerless & out of your depth. You have a very real dilemma on your hands - esp if you are his one remaining support!

I read your other replies and I agree forced treatment is only a last-gasp measure and that he is not violent at this stage.

All you can do is hope he sees the light before he gets really un-well.

It is a pity but the meds are not perfect - nothing we humans do is ever perfect! I am lucky to have little or no side-effects and my brain has not yet turned to mush. I credit meditation for most of my recovery - but the experts would put it mainly down to meds! :)

I was virtually forced into meditation because I had no other option. This may or may not help you or your brother in law but it proves recovery is still possible. So don't give up hope. I thought I was a LOST cause many times so it is possible to emerge from a really dark and lonely place.

I hope I am making some sense just sitting here typing away at my computer - it is difficult to know what to advise and many people would be quite daunted to be in your shoes right now.

Medication is only part of the "answer" anyway. Social support is vital but if he keeps alienating people he may end up with not much interaction with healthier adults and that is not a good situation to be in. You can have ALL kinds of delusions & scary experiences. I have been there and somehow extricated myself but it did not happen overnight!

I don't have any "magic" words - just the wish that you can somehow help your brother in law to see the light in this time of need.

Feel free to bend my ear or vent - I am pretty unshakeable after all I have been through. Nothing about the human condition would "shock" me - it would just spark my compassion because some people do seem to get a really RAW deal in this life and we have to somehow manage as best we can but we are imperfect beings so we often make mistakes - some are easier to recover from than others.

Wishing you and your family all the best whatever course you decide to take. If I can recover from the depths I have to believe there is hope for everyone.

Hang in there!
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Many years ago I did unconscious mind research on myself, to learn how the operating system of the brain is laid out. You cannot see this neural software/firmware from the outside, even with modern tools. I has to be seen from the inside by inducing various subroutines and trying to be objective. This was dangerous but I was young and naive and somehow made it through without drugs or professional help.

It required inducing internal neural affects and watching what happens, while trying to use the data to map out the sources and the dynamics. To do this I had to become both the scientist and the experiment, and try to maintain objectivity while being under unconscious pressure. The analogy would be like having a tooth drilled, and then trying to be objective to all the details of my body, while being in intense pain. At the peak, I unknowingly induced a mystical psychosis, which was a self propelled fantasy world, filled with mystical characters with a religious flair. That best data lasted for months. In the end, it played itself out and I was back to normal with a much better handle on how the brain's software is organized.

When the brain writes to memory it adds emotional tags to the sensory content. Our memory has both sensory content; details, and emotional valance. Our strongest memories will also have the strongest attached feeling tags; marriage, first child, trauma, etc.

Although sensory content has nearly unlimited combinations via the five senses, the feeling tags are limited in number and tend to be recycled and used for similar content. For example, if I asked you to list your favorites foods, each item on that list would have the same feeling tone of joy and satisfaction, even if the sensory content is as different as breakfast, dinner and desert.

The advantage of this is the brain can store memory in layers, with each layer associated with the all sensory content with the same or similar feeling tags. If one emotion blend is being triggered, strongly, such as fear or paranoia, then all your memories with these specific tags can become conscious at the same time, since they will are part of that specific tag and memory layer. Any one layer, can cause tunnel vision, since all layers of memory are scattered though out the brain, allowing us to have full access to all our brain functions. In the case of the memory layer of fear or paranoia, this can limit us to a narrow layer of data, all with fear data, by which we will try to interpret the environment. If we feel hungry, our mind narrows to a hunger layer and we narrow our vision to food gathering, preparation and eating.

Since each memory in that layer the same tagging, if we reflect on any specific memory we can trigger the feelings that will reinforce the layer. If I want bacon and eggs, all the rest of the gathering instincts will become active. In the case of the mystical psychosis that I induced, this had many layers, each which seemed to be able to take on a life of their own. Subroutine appears to form from the layer that becomes like a secondary center of consciousness, that can drive the dynamics in autonomous ways. This loop is reinforcing, causing even new memories to be absorbed into the same base feeling. One may feel paranoia, even with harmless things, due the loop using the fear tag for new memory.

Some drugs try to shut off the chemical train that reinforces the feeling platform behind this renegade memory layer. If you could shut off the fear, while also inducing a more positive feeling, like joy, a new layer will appear that is more useful; passive aggressive.

Often these drugs shut off the bad feelings that drive the layer, but but do not induce another, so you feel drugged out without any feelings. If you under dose, some feelings will return but this can restart the old loop if the generation of fear chemicals was to return due to a memory trigger.

I my case, I did not use any drugs, but let rather would do mental exercises to calm my mind and shut off negative feelings, so the negative autonomous loops would shut down. Since these brain chemical are neurotransmitters then need time to clear out of the cerebral spinal fluid. To do this you need a range of positive feelings and memories, which collectively, have useful feeling tones that can be induced over an extended time so there is neurotransmitter clear out. In my mystical psychosis, there was characters from the good and dark side, competing allowing me breaks and brakes. It all ended with a type of amnesia where my memory was erased so none of the subroutines had layer fuel.
 
I know how you feel my mother has dementia and its serious she still knows who I am but that day is coming - its hard to watch a loved one suffer and i don't want to be that old and have it happen to me. She is literately frightened of everything and gets caught in loops in her thought. I retired to help her and go there everyday to watch her for 4 or 5 hours.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
UPDATE

Today the psychiatrist from the health team called and was refused entry, this is the second time in a couple of weeks the guy has been sent packing. Obviously concerned he put into motion an order to have my brother in law taken into hospital for assessment.

As it stands brother in law is in hospital as of tonight, I'm not sure when he will be seeing the psychiatrist.

I don't know much more, i will still be flying to the UK next week but have no idea what i can do. I will be there for him though.
 
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