Our values are superior to yours so...

[Sahar]

Speaking from a Muslim perspective, in many threads about Islam, I find a problem.
I am certain that many non Muslims don't like some Islamic concepts and rulings. And they believe it's oppressive...I don't know barbaric...whatever. And I am not sure that non Muslims realize that many Muslims have a trouble with some Western concepts (I said Western because they are dominating the world currently) and see them very negatively and with disgust as some see Islam.

Now this is not my problem. My problem is not about having opposite views. But about the fact that because you think that your values are better than mine, we have to formulate the laws of our country according to yours. I can't help saying this is a typical imperialistic mindset. Almost all Muslim countries have suffered from Western imperialism and colonialism. And they have paid very expensive price for this and in their attempts to get their independence (of course they still do).

I am taking prostitution as an example and don't really mean to discuss it, you think that prostitution is somehow a human right for whatever reasons you have and they must be good reasons in your eyes. Anyone who wishes to be a prostitute must not be prevented from doing so. And it happened that your society agrees on this idea so the laws are in cope with this.

On the other hand, I don't think it's a right and I think it must be illegalized. The society I live in agrees on my view and it's manifested in the Law.

Of course the people of your country don't accept the idea of forcing my views on them. Readily we can hear the screams out loud when the word Shari'a is mentioned there.
Why don't you expect Muslims in their countries to do the same? I mean refusing to be ruled by non Muslim values that are inconsistent with theirs?

Human rights cross borders and are universal. Sorry when we are having our differences on some values, surely this means they are not universal. Sure there are some universal values, but we disagree on others. Not because there are some people who consider them to be universal, they must be. Not because you think that yours are more superior to ours, it must mean we should be ruled by yours (except of course believing that you have more powers than others and this gives you the right to subdue them).

Some Muslims may disagree with me. Certainly, there is a different non-Muslim perspective to all this.

 

[Willamena]

I couldn't agree with you more about imperialism. I often feel like apologizing to the world that this Westernization is necessary, but at the same time, with the new global philosophy we have to adapt or perish. It's simply not about nations anymore.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I am against cultural imperialism, too, until I see people being beaten, tortured, and killed, and if people are beaten, tortured, and killed under the protection of the government in charge, I speak up.

According to your example, I take it you think prostitution is legal in my country. If you think so, you are mistaken. Prostitution is only legal in a few select areas in the U.S. Throughout most of the country, it is illegal. What you are perhaps hearing are arguments for why it should be legal for the purpose of making sure that if men and women find themselves in a circumstance where they are selling sex, that they are protected from being beaten, tortured, and killed, AND that the business itself falls under the same umbrella for customer protection as other businesses in the same district.

What I disagree with is if I speak up about injustice that I see against women in another culture, that it's assumed that I want everybody to be like me and to live the same values I hold. I don't think that, and I doubt that I ever will. My values are high in the arts and sciences, in free enterprise, in celebration of life through dance and good food, and helping to find an end to poverty, famine, war, and human trafficking.

I don't put much value in many religious traditions, yet I know many people do. I wish them the freedom to do so and the protection from being beaten, tortured, jailed, or killed because they follow a religious tradition that may not be the most popular.

By this freedom, however, I wish to protect those who believe as you do to practice your religion freely and openly. I would like for others to practice a value system that I may find distasteful, such as the Westboro Baptist Church who picket funerals with signs up saying "Thank God for dead children!" I find it distasteful, but they should have the freedom to practice their religion and their right to free speech. Others have the right to picket THEIR picketing and hold up their own signs.

Here's the thing, Sahar. We've been on these forums for a while. I know how we disagree on issues. I don't claim my values are superior to yours. We simply have very different takes on how to end violence against women, if my memory serves me correctly.

That's the beauty of debate.

 

[runningbooii]

As much as we might not like to say it, there ARE certain values which are much, much better than others.

Love and tolerance are always better than hate and intolerance.

 

[Assad91]

There is a double standard that must not be accepted..

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I am taking prostitution as an example and don't really mean to discuss it, you think that prostitution is somehow a human right for whatever reasons you have and they must be good reasons in your eyes. Anyone who wishes to be a prostitute must not be prevented from doing so. And it happened that your society agrees on this idea so the laws are in cope with this.

I'm not sure specifically what society you're talking about here - you appear to be painting "western society" with an extremely broad brush - but nobody I'm aware of thinks that prostitution is a "human right". Here in the UK and in America it is generally still frowned upon, but some States have more lax laws regarding it, but most that have legal prostitution only do so with extremely strict legislation.

On the other hand, I don't think it's a right and I think it must be illegalized. The society I live in agrees on my view and it's manifested in the Law.

The question is: why? Why should it be illegal? What harm is being done to society, or any individual, if a person is able and willing to buy and sell sex - provided that the sex is consensual and any industry or enterprise that offers it does so with very strict regulation to ensure both the prostitute and potential clients are not endangered or poorly treated. I cannot really think of any problems with the idea of well-regulated and consensual sex between responsible adults for the exchange of money, the only problems that come with prostitution are linked with its inherent lack of regulation and the poor treatment of prostitutes in illegal prostitution rings and brothels that result.

Of course the people of your country don't accept the idea of forcing my views on them. Readily we can hear the screams out loud when the word Shari'a is mentioned there.
Why don't you expect Muslims in their countries to do the same? I mean refusing to be ruled by non Muslim values that are inconsistent with theirs?

Because not all values are equal.

I know that sound terrible, but I can safely say that I consider my societies morals superior to any society that, for example, endorses public torture as a reasonable punishment for relatively minor offence. I'm not saying that's a Muslim value - mind you, I really think the term "Muslim values" is painting with about as broad a brush as the term "western society", since I know a huge variety of Muslims with many different values.

It's simply not enough to say "these are our values, and we stick with them". Morality is naturally progressive, and society as a whole naturally trends away from notions that no longer seem to hold moral sway, and towards a more accepting, fairer and mature response to issues. Prostitution being just one. Others being torture, execution, honor killings, patriarchy, and homophobia. I am proud to say I live in a society which is beginning to treat homosexuals with equal rights, and I am equally as disgusted by the fact that so many countries, even certain parts of the supposedly developed world, still feel it is acceptable to treat homosexuals as inferior to heterosexuals. In such cases, the "you can't tell us what to do" argument simply doesn't apply. Oppression is oppression, and any society which endorses homophobia, just as racism and slavery before them, are not a society that I would regard as having a reliable moral framework.

Again, none of these examples are specifically aimed at Muslims or Islamic societies. I'm not sure which societies you are speaking of when you talk about Muslim values, so I'm not really qualified to give a critique of them. I do however know that there is a huge difference between western imperialism and the natural progression of human morality towards eradicating restrictive, oppressive beliefs and enforcing equal humans rights.

 

[Sahar]

ImmortalFlame,
I will not go into why or why not prostitution should be legalized/regulated. This is not the question.

Because not all values are equal.

Indeed. We don't disagree.

I have some questions for you,
You described how you advocate legalization/regulation of prostitution and the so called "equal rights" for homosexuals and any different treatment to such issues disgust you. Okay we now know what disgust you.
But...do you realize that your take may disgust me as well? This is not meant to provoke. I am seriously interested in your reply.
If your answer is yes, do you think I have the right to force my views on a given society that adopt your take on these issues because I think values are not equal and mine are superior?

 

[Riverwolf]

Cultural imperialism is an evil. Too many cultures have been lost to it, including that of my mother's people. I have no connection with my heritage thanks to the political, and subsequent cultural, imperialism of Rome. It's why I practice the one of my cousins from the North; theirs wasn't as systematically wiped out, and is very similar.

That said, recognizing human rights and seeing that certain basic rights are met isn't the same thing. I don't wish for the rich culture of the Middle East, which stretches back so far into history that they're pretty much the ones who invented that concept, to just disappear. I want Persian egalitarianism to return.

 

[arthra]

The example given by Sahar:

"I am taking prostitution as an example and don't really mean to discuss it, you think that prostitution is somehow a human right for whatever reasons you have and they must be good reasons in your eyes. Anyone who wishes to be a prostitute must not be prevented from doing so. And it happened that your society agrees on this idea so the laws are in cope with this."

I'm unsure Sahar what you mean by "your society"... Prostitution is illegal where I live... there are a wide variety of pieces of legislation about prostitution so it's difficult to make I think generalizations..

See:

Prostitution law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As a Baha'i living in California there are several laws that allow people to drink or gamble that are not allowed in my religion. The way we look at is that Baha'i laws apply to Baha'is not to non-Baha'is. I believe laws could change but I don't thin k my personal views should be applied to the general society unless there was some kind of prevailing consent or maybe a cultural change of attitude that could change in the future.

The UN protocol adopted in 2000 is against trafficking and for setting up penalties..and has been ratified so far by over a hundred countries:

Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons, especially Women and Children - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I agree with you Sahar when you wrote:

Human rights cross borders and are universal.

 

[WyattDerp]

And it happened that your society agrees on this idea so the laws are in cope with this.

What? In Sweden it's illegal to go to prostitutes.

Human rights cross borders and are universal. Sorry when we are having our differences on some values, surely this means they are not universal.

Brushing your teeth is good for you. A child refusing to brush their teeth doesn't mean this is not universally true.

(except of course believing that you have more powers than others and this gives you the right to subdue them).

I love the irony of this. Worldwide Umma, anyone? The dude you're with is talking about "punishing" people for having been misguided by that very same dude. "Subdue" doesn't even come close to describing those fantasies and words (angels dragging screaming people to judgement they were mislead about; the only thing on Earth I can compare this to is the Nazis, so I think if all you have to complain about are strawmen about prostitution, we are in awesome shape). And having kids recite texts without even knowing the meaning is standard practice, too.

That is not to defend colonialism, but then again that's a total red hering IMHO: "the west" doesn't invade countries to bring them insight, but to rob them. And those same politicians are also robbing the populations they drive into war. That's a universal constant, and if our countries were Islamic that wouldn't even change anything. Just look at Iran or Palestine. Islam doesn't make people honest or less of powermongers, it can be used for these things just like Christianity or capitalism or anything else.

But to complain about strong-arming people, that's just rich. That's fantastic, thanks for the laugh.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Now this is not my problem. My problem is not about having opposite views. But about the fact that because you think that your values are better than mine, we have to formulate the laws of our country according to yours. I can't help saying this is a typical imperialistic mindset. Almost all Muslim countries have suffered from Western imperialism and colonialism. And they have paid very expensive price for this and in their attempts to get their independence (of course they still do).

I suppose that I should feel blessed that I was born Canadian. However, I do understand that modernity should not have to model itself after 'Western values' but unfortunately that is the case.

But we have many Muslims in Canada, and Islam is the second biggest religion around here. Many are Sunni, but a good number are also Shia and Ismaili, and also Ahmadi. While some like Shari'a, most do not and feel that Shari'a is a cultural thing, not an Islamic thing.

We have many Muslimahs who wear hijab like no biggie. We also have many other Muslimahs who, although still committed to their religion, do not wear hijab. And there is a good but growing minority of niqab and burqa wearers.

We are blessed by our freedom and diversity to choose. A woman in Canada can choose if she desires to wear a hijab, a hat, or a head of her beautiful hair, without it being considered sexual or being harassed in making different choices. Democratic rule allows for choice in the given country, and I do see it as a sacred rule and right!

Although, sometimes I wish I could go in public in a sari without being stared at by everyone else, lol.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

While there are some inaccuracies in your post, I agree overall with the sentiment. "Western", and particularly American, imperialism is robbing the world of great cultures, due to it's own greed and pride. Too many in the US have the idea that "we're better than everyone else, so everyone else should be like us", but this forgets ethical values and spirituality. Personally, it drives me crazy to keep hearing it, especially knowing that such arrogance is undue, because the US is NOT the greatest country in the world, nor is it the worst; it's no better or worse than any other country, just different.

Why does our government, and a good number of our people, want to go into other countries, like a predominantly Muslim nation, and change them to our way of thinking? It's that very idea that is fueling the hatred from other nations toward us. It's like the big kid in kindergarten class, bullying all the other kids, then halfway through the day, he's sitting by himself and can't figure out why no one wants to play with him.

[/endrant]

 

[Koldo]

Of course the people of your country don't accept the idea of forcing my views on them. Readily we can hear the screams out loud when the word Shari'a is mentioned there.
Why don't you expect Muslims in their countries to do the same? I mean refusing to be ruled by non Muslim values that are inconsistent with theirs?

This is the repercussion of what has been happening within the western countries themselves. To abolish the use of religion as a justification for laws, and to uphold secularism in favour of rulings that benefit the citizens as a whole.

 

[Koldo]

While there are some inaccuracies in your post, I agree overall with the sentiment. "Western", and particularly American, imperialism is robbing the world of great cultures, due to it's own greed and pride.

Such as?

Too many in the US have the idea that "we're better than everyone else, so everyone else should be like us", but this forgets ethical values and spirituality.

In this particular case, it is exactly the perception of ethical values being superior that fuels this thought.

Personally, it drives me crazy to keep hearing it, especially knowing that such arrogance is undue, because the US is NOT the greatest country in the world, nor is it the worst; it's no better or worse than any other country, just different.

What do you mean by 'better' or 'worse'?
It is clearly better than many other countries in quality of life, for example.

Why does our government, and a good number of our people, want to go into other countries, like a predominantly Muslim nation, and change them to our way of thinking? It's that very idea that is fueling the hatred from other nations toward us. It's like the big kid in kindergarten class, bullying all the other kids, then halfway through the day, he's sitting by himself and can't figure out why no one wants to play with him.

Because you don't live in a void. With the globalization of our world, it is essential to get as many people as possible to agree with you on certain subjects. Else your country is at the risk of being turned into a colony ruled under a theocracy in the future.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I think it is perhaps important to think what western culture is...
It is the result of an amalgam of of cultures and religions from around the world. Even the "Christian" aspects were imported from the middle east. It includes Ideas and morals distilled from Both Christian and Norse pagan religions and has added Ideas from places as widely separated as Japan India, and the pacific Islands.
Ideas that have had strength and social meaning have been incorporated into the culture and pervade our laws and customs.

The concept of democracy is not western. it is thought to have come from the Greeks and was modified by Rome and the Norse laws. It has come to be based around equality, fairness and justice. It was spread far and wide especially by the British. Today many countries including Canada Australia India,Israel, Pakistan, the USA have chosen to base their law in the British Common Law. It was not forced on any of them They took what they saw was good about it, and added modifications that suited their own societies.

British common law is not the only system used in the west. The French legal system has also influenced many others including Scotland Germany, Holland Belgium and much of indo china

World institutions have based their legal concepts around these two main threads but with aspects of all world legal systems.

The Muslim Sharia law and social customs have largely kept them selves separate from the rest of the world. This is not a fault of the west it is a choice made by Islam. Countries like Egypt and Turkey have embrace both Islam and Secular Government as has Jordan ( but as an absolute monarchy)

All these things are choices...
Islamic countries can continue in the old ways if they wish... but if they want to trade and live with in world society, they must conform to the minimum standards acknowledged by the various world institutions as basic human rights applicable to all people.

These common world standards are open to change as new concepts of fairness and human rights are developed. Islam could be part of that force for change, but first it must accept where the world stands now and not think it can make changes from outside to suit itself.

No one is suggesting that the West or any other combination of countries has got every thing right. Law and social mores are always changing, they are work in progress...Islam could be part of that process.

 

[Alceste]

Prostitution is not legal in my country (Canada). Nevertheless, our legislators do the best they can to protect prostitutes from exploitation.

I see your point of view. We both can agree that prostitution is unhealthy. Immoral. Not ideal. Whatever. It is also a fact of life. So, accepting the fact that there will always be people who are willing to buy and sell sex, how can we mitigate the risks?

Secular societies are pragmatic, not immoral.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I think the people who live in their countries should decide what the laws are and folks outside their country should stay out of it.

 

[jonman122]

I think the people who live in their countries should decide what the laws are and folks outside their country should stay out of it.

I would agree with this if I could believe that the laws being made would benefit the people.

Why should we (mankind as a whole) stay out of the business of a country where the people will punish a 10 year old girl for being raped by a 40 year old man, where instead of trying to help her through her now mountain-sized mental and physical traumas, they give her 100 lashes or stone her to death for having made the man commit adultery?

 

[Gharib]

I would agree with this if I could believe that the laws being made would benefit the people.

Why should we (mankind as a whole) stay out of the business of a country where the people will punish a 10 year old girl for being raped by a 40 year old man, where instead of trying to help her through her now mountain-sized mental and physical traumas, they give her 100 lashes or stone her to death for having made the man commit adultery?

Right, where were you when innocent people were being imprisoned for life and killed for nothing because the dictator said so?

There are many heroes after the war. What you don't realize though is that the actual heroes died in the war.

And now that Muslims have control and wish to implement Islamic law, all of a sudden 'mankind as a whole' must stand up. Why doesn't mankind stand up for the constant killing of innocent people in Palestine, Syria, Sri Lanka, Burma etc?

Keep your 'elitism' to yourself.

And before you do any of that, stand up to your own government who supports a war where it's ally kills hundreds of innocent kids through drones. Talk about hypocrisy.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I would agree with this if I could believe that the laws being made would benefit the people.

Why should we (mankind as a whole) stay out of the business of a country where the people will punish a 10 year old girl for being raped by a 40 year old man, where instead of trying to help her through her now mountain-sized mental and physical traumas, they give her 100 lashes or stone her to death for having made the man commit adultery?

So we stick our nose into this and start another war? I don't see any good solution to the problem you just mentioned.

The best thing I can come up with is everyone should be allowed to leave their country if they have issues.