Our life on earth, Adam and Eve, Agency and More.

[Flat Earth Kyle]

sorry, i cant agree with the last part which speaks of hell as being a place where some will go to be ruled over by Satan

'...which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

any power that the devil has is going to be 'undone' as the scripture you posted states.
14 For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"

So how is it possible that satan can hold anyone anywhere? Any power he currently has is going to become ineffectual... no one will be held by him anywhere.

(we dont believe hell is a literal place btw...its nothing more then the grave in the hebrew scriptures)

So where do you believe the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever? Certainly not in heaven or on earth I hope.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

remember that little discussion we had a while ago about the bible interpreting itself? Well here is its own interpretation for the 'lake of fire'

Revelation 20:14 And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.

the lake of fire is a second death according to the scriptures. And death in the scriptures is inactivity/unconsciousness

So we view the 'lake of fire' to be 'complete destruction'... being put to death for a second time by God because one has received an adverse judgment and has been deemed as unworthy of life....inactive and unconscious forever.

So do you believe Satin's unconscious spirit corpse is being tormented day and night for ever and ever?

 

[Pegg]

So where do you believe the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever? Certainly not in heaven or on earth I hope.

why would a loving merciful God want to torture anyone for all eternity? He isnt cruel and vindictive like the devil is.

death is the opposite of life...it is complete destruction of the consciousness. So the devil will cease to exist in any form, in any place and in any way.

 

[Pegg]

So do you believe Satin's unconscious spirit corpse is being tormented day and night for ever and ever?

No. The torment can only happen while satan is still alive because the bible says that the dead are 'unconscious' and 'know nothing'... .so this torment can only refer to what Satan experiences while he is still alive. What is the torment? It is the knowledge that he is going to be put to death.
And this idea is also indicated by the use of the words 'torment' and 'destroy' by the demons in Jesus day:
Matthew 8:28 When he got to the other side, into the country of the Gad·a·renes′, there met him two demon-possessed men coming out from among the memorial tombs, unusually fierce, so that nobody had the courage to pass by on that road. 29 And, look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment (Gr. ba′sa·nos) us before the appointed time?” The 'appointed time' they refer to is the time they are to be put to death...until then, they are living in torment.

another account words it that the demons knew they were going to be destroyed
Mark 1:24 '...saying: “What have we to do with you, Jesus you Naz·a·rene′? Did you come to destroy(Gr, basa·ni·smou) us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.”

the greek words 'torment' ba′sa·nos and 'destroy' basa·ni·smou′ have very similar meanings. Its to be in torment because of the destruction that is coming...thats what the demons were tormented about.

Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.”
So the Devil’s being “tormented” or 'put to death' forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be in the second death forever, eternally dead.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

why would a loving merciful God want to torture anyone for all eternity? He isnt cruel and vindictive like the devil is.

death is the opposite of life...it is complete destruction of the consciousness. So the devil will cease to exist in any form, in any place and in any way.

Because Revelation 20:10 says that the devil will be "tormented day and night forever and ever." I don't believe it is or will be God who will be doing the tormenting though. When Satan rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven did God make him miserable, or did he make himself miserable? When you sin does God make you unhappy, or do you make yourself unhappy?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

No. The torment can only happen while satan is still alive because the bible says that the dead are 'unconscious' and 'know nothing'... .so this torment can only refer to what Satan experiences while he is still alive. What is the torment? It is the knowledge that he is going to be put to death.
And this idea is also indicated by the use of the words 'torment' and 'destroy' by the demons in Jesus day:
Matthew 8:28 When he got to the other side, into the country of the Gad·a·renes′, there met him two demon-possessed men coming out from among the memorial tombs, unusually fierce, so that nobody had the courage to pass by on that road. 29 And, look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment (Gr. ba′sa·nos) us before the appointed time?” The 'appointed time' they refer to is the time they are to be put to death...until then, they are living in torment.

another account words it that the demons knew they were going to be destroyed
Mark 1:24 '...saying: “What have we to do with you, Jesus you Naz·a·rene′? Did you come to destroy(Gr, basa·ni·smou) us? I know exactly who you are, the Holy One of God.”

the greek words 'torment' ba′sa·nos and 'destroy' basa·ni·smou′ have very similar meanings. Its to be in torment because of the destruction that is coming...thats what the demons were tormented about.

Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.”
So the Devil’s being “tormented” or 'put to death' forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be in the second death forever, eternally dead.

So according to you Satan is going to be tormented day and night forever and ever by the fact that he is going to cease to exist? I'm sorry it does not add up, for being tormented forever and ever says infinity, while ceasing to exist says finite.

I'm sorry Matthew 8:28 torment us before the time, or before the appointed time does not say anything about the time being the time they will cease to exist. I see this as more of a "art thou come to torment us prematurely, or before the time appointed that we will be tormented?

Mark 1:24
24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God."

I see no indication that this does not mean render us powerless as Satan will be rendered powerless.

Revelation 21:8
" 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

I agree that the lake of fire and brimstone is the second death, Revelation 20:14 says the same thing

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

However with Revelation 20:10

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I see no indication that the lake of fire and brimstone means ceasing to exist. Did we not already agree that you can not torment a corpse, or someone who has ceased to exist?

Dictionary.com
tor·ment [v. tawr-ment, tawr-ment; n. tawr-ment] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to afflict with great bodily or mental suffering; pain: to be tormented with violent headaches.
2.
to worry or annoy excessively: to torment one with questions.
3.
to throw into commotion; stir up; disturb.
noun
4.
a state of great bodily or mental suffering; agony; misery.
5.
something that causes great bodily or mental pain or suffering.
6.
a source of much trouble, worry, or annoyance.
7.
an instrument of torture, as the rack or the thumbscrew.
8.
the infliction of torture by means of such an instrument or the torture so inflicted.

Sorry, I don't see anything here about causing something to cease to exist.

 

[Pegg]

Yaddo, how can 'death' and 'hades' but put into the lake of fire?

death is a condition... you cant' pick it up and say, look here is death.

How does a condition such as death get tormented with the devil in the lake of fire???? Just answer me that.... and think logically about it for a few moments.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

I believe there are two kinds of death are spoken of in the scriptures. One is the death of the body, which is caused by the separation of the body from the spirit; “The body without the spirit is dead” (James 2:26). The other is spiritual death, which is to die as pertaining to, or to be separated from, righteousness—to be alienated from the things of God. Both of these deaths were introduced into the world by the Fall of Adam. But death is also the consequence of our own sins. We make our own spiritual death by our works, our thoughts, and our actions. As Paul said, “The wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23), and some are “dead” while they live (1 Tim. 5:6).

" 6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth."

In explaining these things, Jacob called the physical death the grave and spiritual death he called hell. The Atonement of Jesus Christ will bring all persons back into the presence of God to be judged, the body coming forth from the grave and uniting with the spirit released from paradise or from hell (as the case may be). This will restore all mankind to the presence of God. This is the same as Paul spoke: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:21–23). Then those who have willfully rebelled against the light and truth of the gospel will suffer again a spiritual death, which is called the second death (Rev. 20:14). Each person suffers only one physical death, since when once resurrected, the body can die no more.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Yaddo, how can 'death' and 'hades' but put into the lake of fire?

death is a condition... you cant' pick it up and say, look here is death.

How does a condition such as death get tormented with the devil in the lake of fire???? Just answer me that.... and think logically about it for a few moments.

When Satan and his followers rebelled they were cast down to earth, this was a spiritual death in that they were separated from the presence of God. Someday God will cleanse the earth of its filthiness and cast Satan from the Earth into outer darkness. When it comes to placing death and hell into the fire I believe it is referring to those who are spiritually dead, those who are dead as pertaining unto righteousness, who have separated themselves from God. God will take all the wicked from the earth and toss them into the mournful and unpleasent trash heap of outer darkness.

 

[Pegg]

In explaining these things, Jacob called the physical death the grave and spiritual death he called hell.

well this is where you are interpreting it wrongly.

In hebrew, the grave and hell are the same place.

hell is translated from 'sheol'... sheol means the 'grave' in hebrew.


They are the same place.

 

[Pegg]

When Satan and his followers rebelled they were cast down to earth, this was a spiritual death in that they were separated from the presence of God. Someday God will cleanse the earth of its filthiness and cast Satan from the Earth into outer darkness. When it comes to placing death and hell into the fire I believe it is referring to those who are spiritually dead, those who are dead as pertaining unto righteousness, who have separated themselves from God. God will take all the wicked from the earth and toss them into the mournful and unpleasent trash heap of outer darkness.

do you realise that this teaching paints God as a liar, and Satan as one who speaks truth?

Satan told Eve "you positively will not die"

This teaching means that no one ever really dies...they are still conscious and living in some other realm. Maybe we should all be thanking Satan for telling us the truth.

 

[Shiranui117]

do you realise that this teaching paints God as a liar, and Satan as one who speaks truth?

Satan told Eve "you positively will not die"

This teaching means that no one ever really dies...they are still conscious and living in some other realm. Maybe we should all be thanking Satan for telling us the truth.

But how are you defining "die" here? We all do die. Our souls separate from our bodies at death. When we separate ourselves from God, Who is Life, we are truly in death.

Yaddo, how can 'death' and 'hades' but put into the lake of fire?

death is a condition... you cant' pick it up and say, look here is death.

How does a condition such as death get tormented with the devil in the lake of fire???? Just answer me that.... and think logically about it for a few moments.

Hades was personified in that passage of Revelation. Much like how Wisdom was in the Book of Proverbs.

 

[Shiranui117]

I believe there are two kinds of death are spoken of in the scriptures. One is the death of the body, which is caused by the separation of the body from the spirit; “The body without the spirit is dead” (James 2:26). The other is spiritual death, which is to die as pertaining to, or to be separated from, righteousness—to be alienated from the things of God. Both of these deaths were introduced into the world by the Fall of Adam. But death is also the consequence of our own sins. We make our own spiritual death by our works, our thoughts, and our actions. As Paul said, “The wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23), and some are “dead” while they live (1 Tim. 5:6).

In explaining these things, Jacob called the physical death the grave and spiritual death he called hell. The Atonement of Jesus Christ will bring all persons back into the presence of God to be judged, the body coming forth from the grave and uniting with the spirit released from paradise or from hell (as the case may be). This will restore all mankind to the presence of God. This is the same as Paul spoke: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:21–23). Then those who have willfully rebelled against the light and truth of the gospel will suffer again a spiritual death, which is called the second death (Rev. 20:14). Each person suffers only one physical death, since when once resurrected, the body can die no more.

Yes, this is an accurate description of it. BTW, the intermittent state/place between death and resurrection is known as "Hades" in Greek (not to be confused with its pagan counterpart of the same name) and "Sheol" in Hebrew.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

do you realise that this teaching paints God as a liar, and Satan as one who speaks truth?

Satan told Eve "you positively will not die"

This teaching means that no one ever really dies...they are still conscious and living in some other realm. Maybe we should all be thanking Satan for telling us the truth.

Were Adam and Eve separated from the presence of God? Yes
Satan lied
Did Adam and Eve die the physical death? Yes
Satan lied.

I don't see any indication here that death meant ceasing to exist, just as I see no indication that the second death means ceasing to exist.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

well this is where you are interpreting it wrongly.

In hebrew, the grave and hell are the same place.

hell is translated from 'sheol'... sheol means the 'grave' in hebrew.


They are the same place.

I guess it all depends on your Hebrew Dictionary because I have read it plenty of times as the abiding place of the departed spirits.
Which Hebrew Dictionary are you using?

 

[Pegg]

But how are you defining "die" here? We all do die. Our souls separate from our bodies at death. When we separate ourselves from God, Who is Life, we are truly in death.

many people will tell you that we go to a better place, a happier place when we die. If the mind/consciousness can continue to exist after death, then death doesnt really exist.

the physical body is nothing more then a carriage that we inhabit...and when that body dies, we go elsewhere and inhabit somewhere else. That doesnt sound like death to me.

Hades was personified in that passage of Revelation. Much like how Wisdom was in the Book of Proverbs.

i dont agree that revelation 20 does that.... but it does do it in Rev 6:8 And I saw, and, look! a pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Ha′des was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword ...

in all other occurances, Hades is not personified, but it is spoken of as the place where the dead go to....even Jesus was said to go to hades in Acts 2:31-32
Hades refers to the common grave of mankind, the place Jesus had entered into when he was laid in a tomb. On Pentecost of 33 C.E., Peter said of Christ: “Neither was he forsaken in Hades nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses.”

 

[Pegg]

I guess it all depends on your Hebrew Dictionary because I have read it plenty of times as the abiding place of the departed spirits.
Which Hebrew Dictionary are you using?

The Greek Septuagint uses the word hades 70 times, and in 60 of those times it is translating the word sheʼohl′ which means the grave.

Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 2, p. 187) says: “HADES . . . It corresponds to ‘Sheol’ in the O.T. [Old Testament]. In the A.V. of the O.T. [Old Testament] and N.T. [New Testament], it has been unhappily rendered ‘Hell.’”

Collier’s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says concerning “Hell”: “First it stands for the Hebrew Sheol of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament. Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word ‘hell,’ as understood today, is not a happy translation.”

The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol. XIV, p. 81) said: “Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”

 

[Pegg]

Were Adam and Eve separated from the presence of God? Yes
Satan lied
Did Adam and Eve die the physical death? Yes
Satan lied.

I don't see any indication here that death meant ceasing to exist, just as I see no indication that the second death means ceasing to exist.

but according to your beliefs, Adam and Eve are still alive as spirits, yes? They are immortal in the spirit world, yes?

 

[Ouroboros]

but according to your beliefs, Adam and Eve are still alive as spirits, yes? They are immortal in the spirit world, yes?

Your question made me wonder... are Adam and Eve in Hell or Heaven?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Your question made me wonder... are Adam and Eve in Hell or Heaven?

She believes they don't exist anymore in any form except for a memory of them.