Our life on earth, Adam and Eve, Agency and More.

[fantome profane]

Animal consciousness and ability to reason is something that interests me. Thanks for the link.

On that note, I have a short story. Just a few days ago, we were sitting outside. The neighbors have dogs, and so do we. Sometimes, their dogs come up to the fence and start barking, with the intent of getting our dogs started too. Usually, our dogs will run up to the fence, and a barking fight ensues.

This time, I could see this coming when the neighbor dog started barking, and I rebuked and tol my oldest dog "No!" before she even had turned her head. My other dog, a dalmatian, is half-deaf now from age and couldn't hear my command. She started to move towards the fence, and lo and behold, my old dog intercepted the dalmatian and growled at her to stay. The dalmatian than ran around the BBQ to avoid the old one, but our old dog tried to intercept once more but to no avail, the dalmatian slipped through and got the fence. The old dog then ran up there too, but wasn't barking at the neighbor dog, but at the dalmatian.

The old dog basically took on a role of police over the other dog solely based on my command.

Make sure you use you power for good.

"Who watches the watchdog"

 

[Avicious]

My name is Kyle by the way.
Thank you so much for reading over this passage.
I figured you would disagree with verses 22 and 23 based on previous conversations.

In answer to your question, I believe God gave them the commandment to reproduce that they could not fulfill until after they had fallen.
Basically Don't partake of the fruit, but I want you to reproduce. Then it turned out that they could not reproduce until after they partook of the fruit, basically showing that the fall was a necessary part of God's plan, but they couldn't fall if they didn't disobey.

So that was the only thing you disagreed with?

Do you agree with this concerning the importance of opposition and the way God's laws works?
"11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away."

This is probably one of the most interesting points I've ever read from this website. I've always, when considering gods existence, thought that the fall of man was a part of his plan, and why you may ask?

In the thinkings of the believers of god they believe him to be omnipotent omniscient and all of the omni-type things I won't go on to list. To be omniscient he must have known the future that Adam and Eve would share. And he planned for that in this commandment. (I should probably say that I'm no believer, before anyone makes that assumption. I'm talking as if I do believe for a minute, to further my questions.)

I believe this to be true, that he didn't really create this hole to make them fail, but that he planned for it for them to have free will (since all believers are so stand-strong in the idea that god had to have made free will.), he looked forward and saw the sin they would make, and made this commandment so that, in a way, they were still following him.

I believe it is stated in the bible that they felt shame for having disobeyed him in such a way, they were stricken with grief for being thrown out and for disobeying.

Your thoughts, Kyle?

 

[Ouroboros]

Make sure you use you power for good.

"Who watches the watchdog"

I will use it for good only, like taking over the world one dog at a time. Muahahahah!

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

This is probably one of the most interesting points I've ever read from this website. I've always, when considering gods existence, thought that the fall of man was a part of his plan, and why you may ask?

In the thinkings of the believers of god they believe him to be omnipotent omniscient and all of the omni-type things I won't go on to list. To be omniscient he must have known the future that Adam and Eve would share. And he planned for that in this commandment. (I should probably say that I'm no believer, before anyone makes that assumption. I'm talking as if I do believe for a minute, to further my questions.)

I believe this to be true, that he didn't really create this hole to make them fail, but that he planned for it for them to have free will (since all believers are so stand-strong in the idea that god had to have made free will.), he looked forward and saw the sin they would make, and made this commandment so that, in a way, they were still following him.

I believe it is stated in the bible that they felt shame for having disobeyed him in such a way, they were stricken with grief for being thrown out and for disobeying.

Your thoughts, Kyle?

I definitely agree, that is why they hid themselves.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Animal consciousness and ability to reason is something that interests me. Thanks for the link.

On that note, I have a short story. Just a few days ago, we were sitting outside. The neighbors have dogs, and so do we. Sometimes, their dogs come up to the fence and start barking, with the intent of getting our dogs started too. Usually, our dogs will run up to the fence, and a barking fight ensues.

This time, I could see this coming when the neighbor dog started barking, and I rebuked and tol my oldest dog "No!" before she even had turned her head. My other dog, a dalmatian, is half-deaf now from age and couldn't hear my command. She started to move towards the fence, and lo and behold, my old dog intercepted the dalmatian and growled at her to stay. The dalmatian than ran around the BBQ to avoid the old one, but our old dog tried to intercept once more but to no avail, the dalmatian slipped through and got the fence. The old dog then ran up there too, but wasn't barking at the neighbor dog, but at the dalmatian.

The old dog basically took on a role of police over the other dog solely based on my command.

Sounds to me like that dog certainly had a conscious of right and wrong. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Pegg]

Looks like our Bibles disagree on this one
Revelation 20:10-11
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

It is kind of hard to be tormented day and night forever and ever if you no longer exist.

our bibles dont disagree. I jumped to vs 14 which goes onto say that death is hurled into the same place as the devil and death itself is said to become no more, hence its a place of destruction.

with regard to the place being one of 'torment'... If the Devil were to be tortured for all eternity, God would have to preserve him alive, but the Bible says that Jesus will “destroy him.” (Hebrews 2:14, KJ) Also, the fiery lake represents “the second death.” at Revelation 21:8. Its a death from which no one can come back to life again. So its a permanant death.

Also, “to torment” can mean “to restrain” someone. There is an account of when Jesus confronted the demons, and they cried out: “Art thou come hither to torment us [restrain us in the abyss] before the time?” (Matthew 8:29; Luke 8:30, 31; KJ) So all of those in “the lake” will suffer the “torment” of everlasting restraint which is the same as “second death.”

 

[Ouroboros]

Sounds to me like that dog certainly had a conscious of right and wrong. Thank you for sharing.

Yup. It was quite interesting to see it.

I have another story (man, I'm getting old, starting to tell stories... "I remember when..." LOL). When we first got the dogs, many years ago, the dalmatian and the poodle were bigger dogs, and we got a puppy. The puppy wanted to play "catch ears" tag game with the other two. The puppy couldn't reach their ears, so the dalmatian was actually bending her head down so the puppy could reach while they were running around! Something is for sure going on in their brains, however little it is.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Yup. It was quite interesting to see it.

I have another story (man, I'm getting old, starting to tell stories... "I remember when..." LOL). When we first got the dogs, many years ago, the dalmatian and the poodle were bigger dogs, and we got a puppy. The puppy wanted to play "catch ears" tag game with the other two. The puppy couldn't reach their ears, so the dalmatian was actually bending her head down so the puppy could reach while they were running around! Something is for sure going on in their brains, however little it is.

That is so funny, I can visualize the whole thing in my mind. That would be one great Youtube video!

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

our bibles dont disagree. I jumped to vs 14 which goes onto say that death is hurled into the same place as the devil and death itself is said to become no more, hence its a place of destruction.

with regard to the place being one of 'torment'... If the Devil were to be tortured for all eternity, God would have to preserve him alive, but the Bible says that Jesus will “destroy him.” (Hebrews 2:14, KJ) Also, the fiery lake represents “the second death.” at Revelation 21:8. Its a death from which no one can come back to life again. So its a permanant death.

Also, “to torment” can mean “to restrain” someone. There is an account of when Jesus confronted the demons, and they cried out: “Art thou come hither to torment us [restrain us in the abyss] before the time?” (Matthew 8:29; Luke 8:30, 31; KJ) So all of those in “the lake” will suffer the “torment” of everlasting restraint which is the same as “second death.”

Hey, it is either the devil is tormented day and night forever, or he is not. I do not think the Lake of Fire and Brimstone means what you think it means.

 

[Pegg]

Hey, it is either the devil is tormented day and night forever, or he is not. I do not think the Lake of Fire and Brimstone means what you think it means.

you think its a literal place, i get that, but why do you think its a literal place?

 

[Ouroboros]

That is so funny, I can visualize the whole thing in my mind. That would be one great Youtube video!

It truly sucks I don't have it on video.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

our bibles dont disagree. I jumped to vs 14 which goes onto say that death is hurled into the same place as the devil and death itself is said to become no more, hence its a place of destruction.

with regard to the place being one of 'torment'... If the Devil were to be tortured for all eternity, God would have to preserve him alive, but the Bible says that Jesus will “destroy him.” (Hebrews 2:14, KJ) Also, the fiery lake represents “the second death.” at Revelation 21:8. Its a death from which no one can come back to life again. So its a permanant death.

Also, “to torment” can mean “to restrain” someone. There is an account of when Jesus confronted the demons, and they cried out: “Art thou come hither to torment us [restrain us in the abyss] before the time?” (Matthew 8:29; Luke 8:30, 31; KJ) So all of those in “the lake” will suffer the “torment” of everlasting restraint which is the same as “second death.”

I have been looking into the word destroy used in Hebrews 2:18

Dictionary.com
de·stroy [dih-stroi] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to reduce (an object) to useless fragments, a useless form, or remains, as by rending, burning, or dissolving; injure beyond repair or renewal; demolish; ruin; annihilate.
2.
to put an end to; extinguish.
3.
to kill; slay.
4.
to render ineffective or useless; nullify; neutralize; invalidate.
5.
to defeat completely.

In order for there to be no contradiction in the Bible, number 4 and 5 are the only definitions that will fit. Which means the Devil can still exist and yet be destroyed and be miserable and tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It appears the second death does not mean ceasing to exist at all.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

Pegg, you agree with that right?

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

And I'm pretty sure you disagree with that... My only question for you here is if they could of had children why didn't they?

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

I'm pretty sure you agree with that.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

With this I am pretty sure you disagree with Adam fell that men might be, but you agree with and men are, that they might have joy. Am I right?

 

[Pegg]

I have been looking into the word destroy used in Hebrews 2:18


In order for there to be no contradiction in the Bible, number 4 and 5 are the only definitions that will fit. Which means the Devil can still exist and yet be destroyed and be miserable and tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It appears the second death does not mean ceasing to exist at all.

when you look at a dictionary and find a list of 'possible' meanings, you have to choose the meaning that fits with the context of the scripture you are looking at.

so what scripture do you think only 'ineffective' applies?

And what do you think the lake of fire is?

 

[Pegg]

It appears the second death does not mean ceasing to exist at all.

its an interesting subject, the second death. What do you think it is?

 

[Pegg]

Pegg, you agree with that right?

yes i agree, if they had of remained in the garden obedient to God, then they would still be here and we would be living without sin and death. Mankind would enjoy everlasting life just as the angels do.

Thats why the bible says "this means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you the only true God, and of the one you sent forth, Jesus Christ" John 17:3

And I'm pretty sure you disagree with that... My only question for you here is if they could of had children why didn't they?

I dont know why they didnt have children earlier... perhaps the devil intervened at an early enough time to ensnare them before they could begin to fulfill Gods purpose.

Perhaps they were still getting to know each other as a married couple and sex just hadn't happened immediately. And why should it happen immediately anyway? Its not like they were in a rush to have kids....they had everlasting life ahead of them, so why not just spend some time getting to know each other before they engage in sex? makes sense to me.

With this I am pretty sure you disagree with Adam fell that men might be, but you agree with and men are, that they might have joy. Am I right?

Adam did not have disobey God to have children, so no i dont agree with that. Obviously we are here... i dont really know what the writer is trying to say with regard to this comment.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

when you look at a dictionary and find a list of 'possible' meanings, you have to choose the meaning that fits with the context of the scripture you are looking at.

so what scripture do you think only 'ineffective' applies?

And what do you think the lake of fire is?

I agree, and the context says that Satan will be miserable and tortured for ever and ever, not that I believe God will be the one torturing Satan, but rather Satan will be torturing himself.
I believe the lake of fire is outer darkness.

Hebrews 2:14

"14 For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"

It is here that I believe destroy means render powerless, or make ineffective, if it meant to cause to cease to exist then it would be in contradiction with Revelation

Revelation 20:10,14 and 15
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I believe the first death was the temporal physical death. The second death I believe was the spiritual one, separation from God.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Pegg, I am pretty sure you agree with all of this last part am I right?

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.
27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.
28 And now, my sons, I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit;
29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg, I am pretty sure you agree with all of this last part am I right?

sorry, i cant agree with the last part which speaks of hell as being a place where some will go to be ruled over by Satan

'...which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

any power that the devil has is going to be 'undone' as the scripture you posted states.
14 For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"

So how is it possible that satan can hold anyone anywhere? Any power he currently has is going to become ineffectual... no one will be held by him anywhere.

(we dont believe hell is a literal place btw...its nothing more then the grave in the hebrew scriptures)

 

[Pegg]

I agree, and the context says that Satan will be miserable and tortured for ever and ever, not that I believe God will be the one torturing Satan, but rather Satan will be torturing himself.
I believe the lake of fire is outer darkness.

Hebrews 2:14

It is here that I believe destroy means render powerless, or make ineffective, if it meant to cause to cease to exist then it would be in contradiction with Revelation


I believe the first death was the temporal physical death. The second death I believe was the spiritual one, separation from God.

remember that little discussion we had a while ago about the bible interpreting itself? Well here is its own interpretation for the 'lake of fire'

Revelation 20:14 And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.

the lake of fire is a second death according to the scriptures. And death in the scriptures is inactivity/unconsciousness

So we view the 'lake of fire' to be 'complete destruction'... being put to death for a second time by God because one has received an adverse judgment and has been deemed as unworthy of life....inactive and unconscious forever.