Our life on earth, Adam and Eve, Agency and More.

[Pegg]

con·science
1
a : the sense or consciousness of the moral goodness or blameworthiness of one's own conduct, intentions, or character together with a feeling of obligation to do right or be good
b : a faculty, power, or principle enjoining good acts
c : the part of the superego in psychoanalysis that transmits commands and admonitions to the ego
2
archaic : consciousness
3
: conformity to what one considers to be correct, right, or morally good : conscientiousness
4
: sensitive regard for fairness or justice : scruple

there is quite a difference here, isnt there.

Do animals judge their conduct in terms of morals and principles? Do they strive to determine and uphold justice and righteousness???

its this concept of 'right and wrong' which sets us apart and its what i am referring to when is say that animals are not held accountable to God for their actions because they were not created with an inbuilt mechanism for conscience.

 

[Pegg]

What makes you think animals are not both?
Because they don't have all the same commandments as men?
Like I said, in the beginning God only gave men 2 commandments and you believe Adam and Eve were conscience. What is wrong with the animals only having one commandment that we are aware of and being conscience creatures?

they 'have' a conscience....you cant' be a conscience.

Animals are 'conscious' living beings aware of their lives and the world they live in. But they are NOT creatures of 'conscience' who have the ability to recognize and distinguish morals and principles of good and bad.

I dont think you've got your head around the difference between being conscious and having a conscience. I know the words are similar, but they are very dissimilar in meaning.

 

[Pegg]

Do you believe children are conscience? What about the mentally challenged?

lol im going to try really hard with this, ok,

every living creature is 'conscious' .... Is a rock conscious? No. Is a horse conscious, yes. Whats the difference between the two? The horse has a mind, eyes, ears, it can hear sounds, see images, eat food, learn to obey, can be afraid.... A rock, as far as we know, has no mind or senses or feeling...they are inanimate objects whereas a living creature is an animated being.

Ok, so thats a conscious being.


Now the difference in 'conscience' has to do with how a living being 'thinks and reasons' about things. Does a horse live by a moral code? Does a horses mind tell it when something is unjust or morally wrong?
Does your mind tell you when something is unjust or morally wrong. When you see starving children in Africa, do you feel that there is something unjust and morally wrong about their situation? Im sure you do. When a horse sees a starving child, do you think it feels the same things about that child as you do?? Do you think it becomes distressed at the poor state of the child, does the horse become indignant at the people who failed to provide for the child?

this is the difference between the conscience of humans and the conscience of animals....ANIMALS DONT HAVE ONE. They dont have a mechanism which informs them when something is unjust or morally wrong. A horse will see the child just like any other object it sees. But we will see beyond the physical child and see the condition which is making that childs life miserable and we might even seek to correct the imbalance in that childs life. The horse will keep chewing grass because they are not aware of the moral issue affecting the child.

Conscious = aware of life and surroundings
Conscience = aware of right and wrong, moral and immoral, good and bad. It is the power of judgement. We make judgements, animals dont. And let me just say, that if animals ever did develop a conscience, we would be in a lot of trouble!

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

lol im going to try really hard with this, ok,

every living creature is 'conscious' .... Is a rock conscious? No. Is a horse conscious, yes. Whats the difference between the two? The horse has a mind, eyes, ears, it can hear sounds, see images, eat food, learn to obey, can be afraid.... A rock, as far as we know, has no mind or senses or feeling...they are inanimate objects whereas a living creature is an animated being.

Ok, so thats a conscious being.


Now the difference in 'conscience' has to do with how a living being 'thinks and reasons' about things. Does a horse live by a moral code? Does a horses mind tell it when something is unjust or morally wrong?
Does your mind tell you when something is unjust or morally wrong. When you see starving children in Africa, do you feel that there is something unjust and morally wrong about their situation? Im sure you do. When a horse sees a starving child, do you think it feels the same things about that child as you do?? Do you think it becomes distressed at the poor state of the child, does the horse become indignant at the people who failed to provide for the child?

this is the difference between the conscience of humans and the conscience of animals....ANIMALS DONT HAVE ONE. They dont have a mechanism which informs them when something is unjust or morally wrong. A horse will see the child just like any other object it sees. But we will see beyond the physical child and see the condition which is making that childs life miserable and we might even seek to correct the imbalance in that childs life. The horse will keep chewing grass because they are not aware of the moral issue affecting the child.

Conscious = aware of life and surroundings
Conscience = aware of right and wrong, moral and immoral, good and bad. It is the power of judgement. We make judgements, animals dont. And let me just say, that if animals ever did develop a conscience, we would be in a lot of trouble!

Okay, yeah I got that, now do you believe babies, or people with severe mental disabilities have a conscience?

 

[Pegg]

Okay, yeah I got that, now do you believe babies, or people with severe mental disabilities have a conscience?

babies are developing mentally and physically. Their conscience is known to begin to function as they mature... this is why the very young are not charged with crimes in our legal system...they are too young to understand and make judgements. But as a child matures, their facaulty of conscience kicks in and they begin to learn to make judgments on what is right and wrong.

Do people with severe mental disabilities have a conscience? The answer is in the question. 'severe mental disabilities' would indicate an inability to use the mental faculty of conscience. So depending on the type of mental disability, possibly not. Courts take mental disability into account when adults commit crimes for this very reason.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

babies are developing mentally and physically. Their conscience is known to begin to function as they mature... this is why the very young are not charged with crimes in our legal system...they are too young to understand and make judgements. But as a child matures, their facaulty of conscience kicks in and they begin to learn to make judgments on what is right and wrong.

Do people with severe mental disabilities have a conscience? The answer is in the question. 'severe mental disabilities' would indicate an inability to use the mental faculty of conscience. So depending on the type of mental disability, possibly not. Courts take mental disability into account when adults commit crimes for this very reason.

So how do you believe one develops a conscience? Is it something developed through experience, or is it suddenly given to someone at a certain age?

 

[Pegg]

So how do you believe one develops a conscience? Is it something developed through experience, or is it suddenly given to someone at a certain age?

its inbuilt. We are created in Gods image...he put it in us to enable us to determine the rightness, or wrongness, of our own actions

When we do what is right, our conscience commends us and we feel good about our action, when we do bad, our conscience condemns us and we feel guilt over our action.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

its inbuilt. We are created in Gods image...he put it in us to enable us to determine the rightness, or wrongness, of our own actions

When we do what is right, our conscience commends us and we feel good about our action, when we do bad, our conscience condemns us and we feel guilt over our action.

Okay, so how does a conscience inbuilt inside a person become activated? you said you said babies did not have a conscience, or rather at least an active one.

 

[Pegg]

Okay, so how does a conscience inbuilt inside a person become activated? you said you said babies did not have a conscience, or rather at least an active one.

i dont know.

I would take a wild guess and assume that there is most likely a section of our brain linked to the ability to make judgments. As a person matures, they begin to use that section of their brain...i dont know what age it begins, it may depend on the individual and their growth rate (some grow faster/some mature slower)

But let me give you a comparison.... a female child is born with a womb and ovaries and fallopian tubes. These features are all intact but they dont begin to function until other processes in the body begin to function. The hormones are what bring those organs to maturity and the glands which secrete the hormones are all there and present in a young persons body before they begin to release hormones. Hence, just because something isnt functioning doesnt mean it isnt there.

So, the area of our brain that functions as a faculty for making judgment is there even in the very young child... it just takes time for it to begin to function.
There is also a section for memory in our brain... but can you remember anything from before the age of 3 or 4? Not many people can (or if they can, they remember only a few things). That is because the section devoted to memory does not begin to function 100% (the point where memories can be recalled) until around the age of 3 or 4. But this doesnt mean that for the first 3 or 4 years of a childs life it had no memory section in its brain.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

i dont know.

I would take a wild guess and assume that there is most likely a section of our brain linked to the ability to make judgments. As a person matures, they begin to use that section of their brain...i dont know what age it begins, it may depend on the individual and their growth rate (some grow faster/some mature slower)

But let me give you a comparison.... a female child is born with a womb and ovaries and fallopian tubes. These features are all intact but they dont begin to function until other processes in the body begin to function. The hormones are what bring those organs to maturity and the glands which secrete the hormones are all there and present in a young persons body before they begin to release hormones. Hence, just because something isnt functioning doesnt mean it isnt there.

So, the area of our brain that functions as a faculty for making judgment is there even in the very young child... it just takes time for it to begin to function.
There is also a section for memory in our brain... but can you remember anything from before the age of 3 or 4? Not many people can (or if they can, they remember only a few things). That is because the section devoted to memory does not begin to function 100% (the point where memories can be recalled) until around the age of 3 or 4. But this doesnt mean that for the first 3 or 4 years of a childs life it had no memory section in its brain.

Yeah I agree. They are born with a conscience but it does not become activated until later in their life. I do not believe however that it happens over night, instead I believe that it becomes active over the process of time through experience. I believe experience and capacity to understand are required in order to have an active conscience. Adam and Eve after being freshly created, did not have experience, but they had the capacity to learn and understand. So I believe Adam and Eve had a conscience, but it had not become activated until after they experienced partaking of the fruit.

 

[Pegg]

Yeah I agree. They are born with a conscience but it does not become activated until later in their life. I do not believe however that it happens over night, instead I believe that it becomes active over the process of time through experience. I believe experience and capacity to understand are required in order to have an active conscience. Adam and Eve after being freshly created, did not have experience, but they had the capacity to learn and understand. So I believe Adam and Eve had a conscience, but it had not become activated until after they experienced partaking of the fruit.

if that were really the case, then their conscience jumped into action immediately after taking the fruit. So it didnt develop slowly over time with experience....it went from 'off' to 'on' in an instant.

You just said, you believe the conscience becomes active over time through experience....but in the case of Adam and Eve you think it jumped into action immediately??? Its either one or the other.

When I said the conscience develops, I was speaking of babies and children. Adam and Eve were full grown adults, not children. So God created a complete mature body and mind for Adam and Eve...not only that, but they were also perfect! So why wouldnt they have had a working conscience? Perhaps you are looking for a way to marry the idea that God needed them to sin in order for them to learn something??? I dont know what to make of it really.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

if that were really the case, then their conscience jumped into action immediately after taking the fruit. So it didnt develop slowly over time with experience....it went from 'off' to 'on' in an instant.

You just said, you believe the conscience becomes active over time through experience....but in the case of Adam and Eve you think it jumped into action immediately??? Its either one or the other.

When I said the conscience develops, I was speaking of babies and children. Adam and Eve were full grown adults, not children. So God created a complete mature body and mind for Adam and Eve...not only that, but they were also perfect! So why wouldnt they have had a working conscience? Perhaps you are looking for a way to marry the idea that God needed them to sin in order for them to learn something??? I dont know what to make of it really.

Remember I believe that we need 2 things in order for our conscience to be active. 1) The capacity and 2) the experience.
I believe with children it takes time for their brains to develop the capacity.
With Adam and Eve I believe they were made with the capacity, but lacked the experience. I do not believe God created Adam and Eve as all knowing individuals.

 

[Pegg]

Eve had enough knowledge to be able to tell the serpent that if she ate from the tree she would die.
She didnt need to experience death to know that death would be a bad thing for her.

I've heard many people claim that Adam and Eve were too innocent and inexperienced to know what they had done was wrong....but that is just an excuse for their disobedience. They knew it was wrong to eat from the tree before they ate from it therefore they cant claim innocence. They were as guilty as guilty can be.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Eve had enough knowledge to be able to tell the serpent that if she ate from the tree she would die.
She didnt need to experience death to know that death would be a bad thing for her.

I've heard many people claim that Adam and Eve were too innocent and inexperienced to know what they had done was wrong....but that is just an excuse for their disobedience. They knew it was wrong to eat from the tree before they ate from it therefore they cant claim innocence. They were as guilty as guilty can be.

Yeah and my 2 year old daughter is as guilty as guilty can be when she draws all over her hands and feet. She knows she isn't supposed to, that is why she hides in a corner out of sight and out of mind when she does it and when you find her she is like, uh oh. My parents dogs know they are not supposed to pee on the carpet, after doing so they run and hide under the bed. Totally as guilty as guilty can be.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Eve had enough knowledge to be able to tell the serpent that if she ate from the tree she would die.
She didnt need to experience death to know that death would be a bad thing for her.

I've heard many people claim that Adam and Eve were too innocent and inexperienced to know what they had done was wrong....but that is just an excuse for their disobedience. They knew it was wrong to eat from the tree before they ate from it therefore they cant claim innocence. They were as guilty as guilty can be.

Anyways... continuing on,

"17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.
18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil."

I am pretty sure you believe in that, all except for the part where it said Satan had become miserable forever, for you believe Satan will one day cease to exist am I right?

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.
20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.
21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents."

19 and 20 you agree with
Do you agree with 21?

 

[Pegg]

God did condemn the serpent and revelation does say that he is condemned to the firey lake along with death and hades...so the bible does say that Satan will eventually be put to death.

I dont really get what vs 21 is saying. Must all men repent because Adam and Eve sinned? or must they repent over their own sins?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

God did condemn the serpent and revelation does say that he is condemned to the firey lake along with death and hades...so the bible does say that Satan will eventually be put to death.

I dont really get what vs 21 is saying. Must all men repent because Adam and Eve sinned? or must they repent over their own sins?

Do you have a reference for the prophecy of Satan's death?

Because of the fall of Adam of Eve all men save Christ fall short of the glory of God. All men must repent of their own sins and will not be held accountable for Adam's transgression.

 

[Pegg]

Do you have a reference for the prophecy of Satan's death?

Because of the fall of Adam of Eve all men save Christ fall short of the glory of God. All men must repent of their own sins and will not be held accountable for Adam's transgression.

sure, the lake of fire is where the devil will finally end up along with death, hades and all who would be judged as wicked.

Revelation 20:10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur...14 And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.

we know this 'lake of fire' mean everlasting destruction because death is put there...and 'death will be no more' is what Rev 21:4 says.

Because of the fall of Adam of Eve all men save Christ fall short of the glory of God. All men must repent of their own sins and will not be held accountable for Adam's transgression.

sure, i can agree with that statement.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

sure, the lake of fire is where the devil will finally end up along with death, hades and all who would be judged as wicked.

Revelation 20:10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur...14 And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.

we know this 'lake of fire' mean everlasting destruction because death is put there...and 'death will be no more' is what Rev 21:4 says.

Looks like our Bibles disagree on this one
Revelation 20:10-11
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

It is kind of hard to be tormented day and night forever and ever if you no longer exist.

 

[Ouroboros]

The question of animals choices governed by consciousnesses or biological programming has been debated for a long time.

Animal consciousness and ability to reason is something that interests me. Thanks for the link.

On that note, I have a short story. Just a few days ago, we were sitting outside. The neighbors have dogs, and so do we. Sometimes, their dogs come up to the fence and start barking, with the intent of getting our dogs started too. Usually, our dogs will run up to the fence, and a barking fight ensues.

This time, I could see this coming when the neighbor dog started barking, and I rebuked and tol my oldest dog "No!" before she even had turned her head. My other dog, a dalmatian, is half-deaf now from age and couldn't hear my command. She started to move towards the fence, and lo and behold, my old dog intercepted the dalmatian and growled at her to stay. The dalmatian than ran around the BBQ to avoid the old one, but our old dog tried to intercept once more but to no avail, the dalmatian slipped through and got the fence. The old dog then ran up there too, but wasn't barking at the neighbor dog, but at the dalmatian.

The old dog basically took on a role of police over the other dog solely based on my command.