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Featured Our Father

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Mar 2, 2019.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    Why do the majority of christians worship Jesus; if they are told to pray our Father by Jesus?



    if jesus came forth from the Father and returns to the Father,

    “I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.”

    isn't that the same as

    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



    so why worship something that comes and goes, versus god which/who is eternal?
     
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  2. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    Jesus is the gate?

    Edit... The gate for Christians, Catholics, etc...
     
    #2 dybmh, Mar 2, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
  3. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    to understand something you have to know it for yourself.



    Psalm 24:7
    Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

    doors are gateways and gateways are doors.

    Revelation 3:20
    Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


    he's implying somthing about all and not something exclusive to a jesus.
     
  4. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Both Jesus and the Father are Holy and deserve worship. We should worship God as our Heavenly Father and Jesus as our brother. Those who recieve the spirit of God will be born again when Jesus returns and will share in the kingdom with our brother Jesus.
     
  5. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    We want Jesus to be our medium to Father. We don't ''worship'' Jesus. Also we want Mary and the Saints to be our medium to Father. The Orthodox we want mediums to God instead of speaking directly, cause we are full of sin.
     
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  6. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    2 things.

    1) Understanding and knowing are two different intellectual pursuits.
    2) Great example, Psalm 24. Speaks about purity and entering the temple. The expression "clean hands", from what I can tell, is a legal term, and is not literal.

    Consider this:


    If Jesus IS the gate for Christians, this would explain all the laws from the OT that are determined to be unnessessary by people when they pray in Jesus' name. Going thru an intermediary, a translator, is safer? Speaking directly to God with out an intermediary maybe needs more strict laws governing purity.

    In this way, if Jesus is the gate, a Christian can approach God without actually entering the HolyOfHolies, without legal purity as proscribed by Psalm 24. Because they don't go beyond Jesus. They aren't going beyond the gate.

    Jesus acting as a gate, as a translator, can lead a Christian/Catholic right up next to God?

    Jesus is THE beginning and the end for Christians?


     
  7. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    BINGO! You're two for two! First the light metaphor, now this... :cool:

    Jesus is the "Medium"... The gate, or a translator...

    @Fool, regarding rev 3:20, I would need to spend some time reflecting on the verse in context. But for the record, I defer to you on almost all matters scriptural.
     
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  8. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    Yup!
     
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  9. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    why is a medium needed? jesus said you can do all these things and more; if you believe. why are you called to pray our father; if you need a medium?


    did jesus say you needed a medium? does god play favorites to his offspring?
     
    #9 Fool, Mar 2, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
  10. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    i realize this. knowledge comes from outside and insight/understanding from inside.

    the awe of love is the key to understanding. the fear of god is the beginning of wisdom

    Mark 4:11-Mark 4:12 KJV And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


    turnkey

    to enter a temple one has to turn inward, if then the body is the temple why are people entering in through the gate of another???? knowledge comes from without. understanding within. so those on the outside look to another for god? those on the inside, look inward for god??


    jesus said for something to be clean that the inside should be cleaned and the outside would be too. are christians to clean jesus? or themselves?
     
  11. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    I perceive it completely differently.

    Understanding is plural and results from unbiased data. Understanding can change over time. Understanding is feminine. And in this way, I imagine it as open, like a circle. Like an embrace. So for me, I see understanding as external. Understanding is less intimate.

    Knowing something is deeper than understanding it. Understanding does not supercede knowledge. If I "Know" you are my friend. If i really know it, no amount of data can dislodge that knowledge. Even if you lie and cheat and steal from me, if I know you are my friend, my understanding of the circumstances that caused the violation in our friendship will be adjusted in my mind ( possibly in error, possibly in opposition of the truth ) to fit what I "Know" about you.

    In this way, knowledge is internal, intimate, and closed. Like a kiss. I imagine it as a dot.

    Regarding the human body as a temple. I think this speaks to the difference between Abrahamic beliefs that perceive God as external and Dharmic beliefs that perceive godliness as internal.

    My personal opinion on this difference between the Abrahamic and Dharmic approaches is that they are both True. I think a person whose soul reacts favorably to visualizations of internal divinity trends towards Dharmic beliefs. I think a person whose soul reacts favorably to visualizations of external divinity trends towards Abrahamic beliefs.

    Edit: because knowledge is unchanging, aloof, and closed, I perceive it as masculine. Listening to the Hebrew pronunciation of the words for understanding and knowledge... Understanding ends with the mouth open and knowledge ends with the mouth closed.
     
    #11 dybmh, Mar 2, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
  12. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    Gimmie more data? Scriptural quotes.

    My guess is that Jesus was referring to the idea that technically speaking, even a tiny bit of dirt renders something dirty. Clean means 100% clean.

    There's an expression about truth, Emet. Have you heard it? It's like that. Again, just a guess.

    Edit: here's the link to the strong's index entry for Emeth on biblehub: Strong's Hebrew: 571. אֱמֶת (emeth) -- firmness, faithfulness, truth
     
    #12 dybmh, Mar 2, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
  13. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    abraham = brahma
    sarah = sarasvatti
    hagar = ghaggar


    many people knew jesus but not everyone who knew him, understood what he was talking about.


    knowledge, chokmah, is like the seed that a sower sows and binah, understanding, is like the earth which nourishes and reproduces that seed into another fertile plant.

     
    #13 Fool, Mar 2, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    Totally fascinating...

    Regarding wisdom... I don't know. I perceive it differently. For me, knowledge is more like a seed. Wisdom is like a bolt of lightning, like the Kav entering the material world? Like an epiphany? I'm visualize it like a lightning bolt surrounded by a cloud. For me, the cloud is God's glory, the Shechinah, ( Isaiah 6:3 ). Wisdom is like when lightning touches down? So in that way, yes, I agree it results in a point. But it's active, whereas knowledge is static.

    This would explain why fear is a prerequisite for wisdom. Because the conditions have to be polarized for the lightning to strike.
     
  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

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    Looking for a good article that describes the Kav for those who are not familiar with the concept. I'll edit this reply if I find one.

    Edit: I think the wikipedia article on Ohr ( light ) is quite good. In it there are 8 references to the kav including diagrams used to visualize it.

    The best definition of the Kav from the article is "the first Ray of light of creation".

    The article further describes the circumstances before creation as perfectly empty. Again this supports the idea that fear, the functional absence of love is a prerequisite for wisdom. If wisdom is like the Kav, a Ray of creative light, touching down like lightning here in the material world, then fear develops the emptiness, the environmental condition, required for the lightning to strike.

    Taking this analogy further, this would explain why so much wisdom has resulted from the dharmic approach of detachment. Because detachment is the absence of the sense pleasure of love. And in this way the Abrahamic concept of fear of heaven is functionally equivalent to Dharmic detachment.

    Ohr - Wikipedia
     
    #15 dybmh, Mar 2, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
  16. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    we don't stare Father straight in the eyes. we can't.
     
  17. Shantanu

    Shantanu Well-Known Member

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    Why are you so fearful of staring Father straight in the eyes: I have been doing that for the better part of 20 years and He sure does not bite.
     
  18. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    fearful?

    Father is beyond reach. We can't see him. The Son is the only God we see.
     
  19. Shantanu

    Shantanu Well-Known Member

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    That means that the Christian God is not the same as my God who is within reach and teaches me dharmic existence.
     
  20. syo

    syo Well-Known Member

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    That's the Son. The Son is in reach.
     
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