1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Osama Bin Laden: Mujahid vs Criminal

Discussion in 'Islam DIR' started by Sahar, May 2, 2011.

  1. Sahar

    Sahar Read

    Messages:
    5,200
    I read a note by an Egyptian activist in which she said: who say Bin Laden is a Mujahid are like those who say he is a criminal, they all judged him based on the media without legal evidence.

    What do you think of this statement? What do you think of the Muslims who view him as a mujahid?

    I find it difficult to judge based on the American and Western account because America recruit its efforts and its media to deceive the world for the sake of its interests.
    True that Bin Laden left his huge wealth and comfort life for the life of jihad starting from his jihad against the soviets in Afghanistan and his announcement of jihad against the the US. The Palestinian cause was always present is his sermons. So, yes, a great faction of Muslims sympathized with him and his cause. Standing against the US attracted many Muslims. The American injustice, terrorism and its unconditional support of the Zionist entity was the main motive for his ideologies and work and the motive for the sympathy to him.
    But I believe it can't be denied that all this was mixed with innocent blood and the killing of civilians. And if we put the killing of innocent souls in a scale and the cause he worked for in the other scale; I think the scale of the murder of innocents will absolutely tilt.

    It's true that the consequent American administrations and military killed thousand of times more innocents and it's true that the American injustice and crimes are responsible for the appearance of Osama Bin Laden/Al-Qaidah and similar groups but calling him mujahid or giving more weight to his enmity against the USA is wrong.

    What do you think?
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2011
    Badran likes this.
  2. Sahar

    Sahar Read

    Messages:
    5,200
    Well, it seems many people honor the man and call him a martyr.

    I heard Sheikh Mohammed Hassan said that if the assassination was true then this is terrorism. That the Assassination principle is completely rejected in our religion. When they claim to denounce terrorism, they also use terrorism...
     
  3. Badran

    Badran Well-Known Member Staff Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    15,142
    I pretty much agree entirely with your conclusion. First, we indeed don't have hard evidence for many things claimed on him, but we know enough to make a general judgment on him. A judgment that doesn't necessarily include saying how bad he was, but rather in the light of what we know he must have done, whether or not he was doing good or bad in general.

    He may have started with a good and admirable cause in mind, i don't know whether or not he did, he may have, but surely nothing justifies any kind of innocent blood shed. Especially in cases where it was known from the start that many innocent blood will be shed.

    I don't sympathize with him or anybody like him. I may sympathize with someone that retaliates against his oppressor and crosses the line, i'd still view him as wrong, but i may sympathize. However, i can't and don't sympathize with someone who hurts other people who were not the ones who oppressed him, no matter what the circumstances were. He and others like him choose to fight dirty just like their enemies, they are also outspoken about that, almost as if they're proud of it. Nothing whatsoever can justify such attitude, or make it worth any kind of sympathy.
     
  4. Badran

    Badran Well-Known Member Staff Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    15,142
    Thats amazing. How can it be terrorism? Wasn't he a fighting man? Didn't he kill people, order the killing of people, and supposedly was going to continue in doing that?

    Didn't he declare war on those people?

    Of course killing him isn't terrorism.
     
  5. Sahar

    Sahar Read

    Messages:
    5,200
    Well, what does it mean he was a fighting man? But doesn't any one who face charges have the right to defend himself in a court? Not to allow for his assassination on a Muslim land because the US said so?
     
  6. Badran

    Badran Well-Known Member Staff Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    15,142
    Well, when in war things are different, he has his own fighting men right?

    I can understand though if Mohammed Hassan's point was that they try to capture him first, then put him to trial. That actually i agree with. As i understand supposedly thats what happened, but he fired at them so they had to kill him. This was said in another thread here.

    Of course we won't know if that was the case or not.
     
  7. Sahar

    Sahar Read

    Messages:
    5,200
    Well, what I understood that the order came to assassinate him, not to capture him alive.
     
  8. Sajdah

    Sajdah Al-Aqsa Is In My Heart.

    Messages:
    886
    I thought that Nawara would have a clear understanding of the situation, but it seems that she is confused too that's why she kept neutral.. And I agree with her.....
    This incident reminds me of the confusion occurred after Saddam's death, many people sympathized with Saddam, the way he was killed, the time, and the involvement of the U.S in the matter. The same thing can be applied on Ben Laden's death...
    I know some of my friends who strongly disagree with Bin Laden's approach but they sympathized with his cause just because they watching Americans dancing, and celebrating his death!!

    I like Dr. Salman Al Ouda's opinion on the matter, he said that it's a sign of weakness and disability when a great country rejoices the murder of one person who has been chased for ten years, and not a sign of strength or competence.
    Allah (swt) destined his death to be during the era of the peaceful revolutions, even his death might be a defeat to Republicans.
    We disagree with him in what he did and we ask Allah to have mercy on him and to forgive him...
    Ideas don't end with the death of its owner, an idea should be confronted with another one, by spreading justice, and correcting errors....
     
  9. Badran

    Badran Well-Known Member Staff Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    15,142
    That might be the case, i haven't really checked any sources for the story. I guess it depends on whether there was concrete evidence against him in the first place or not, and whether there was a chance of him surrendering or not, as these things would affect (or should affect) the decision.
     
  10. Sajdah

    Sajdah Al-Aqsa Is In My Heart.

    Messages:
    886
    I heard that one of his guards said that Ben Laden told him to shoot him immediately if Americans reached him as he didn't want to be tortured or humiliated by them....I'm not sure if it was true, but I think it is strange story!
     
  11. Sahar

    Sahar Read

    Messages:
    5,200
    Yes, this reminded me of the death of Saddam Hussein and even before his death...before and during the invasion on Iraq when many called him a hero, etc.
    I agree with you on this...the involvement of the US and the feeling that they are celebrating a victory (even if it's fake) doesn't make the one happy. Frankly, I wasn't happy when I heard the news of his death mainly for this reason. But regardless, I started to think and weigh what he did or claimed about him (since I am not positive 100% of the American charges against him) but as I understand he called for the killing of the American civilians and he didn't deny the charges against him, as I understand also he praised some operations that were against civilians.

    I am afraid Sajdah, we are not just talking about ideologies and ideas, we are also talking about blood shedding of innocents. When you ask those who praise the man, they don't deny that he was involved in operations that resulted in the killing of innocents but they emphasize more his open opposition against America and Israel, and reduce the seriousness of the innocent blood shedding by saying "he made his ijtihad that was sometimes right and sometimes wrong"...or "the blood shedding by America is much more and she is the real criminal and the first problem".
    I don't understand the Ijtihad part, really. Does this mean Mubarak, Al Gadaffi, Al Asad, Israel and America who killed innocents, made their Ijtihad but it was wrong and so we pray to God to forgive them?

    I feel the Qur'an is clear:
    "...whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely." Al-Maida: 32

    It's new to me that we ask for heaven for anyone who murder innocents?
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2011
  12. Sahar

    Sahar Read

    Messages:
    5,200
    For sure, I agree that the violent ideas and groups won't end by his death, because the cause for their presence didn't end. The real cause is the American unjust and imperialistic policies towards Muslims. And if they continue, it's very expected that violence won't stop.

    Many warn that there will be a wave of violent attacks as a revenge. May God protect us.
     
  13. Badran

    Badran Well-Known Member Staff Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    15,142
    I completely agree. When he crossed that line, we can no longer view him as someone who merely made a mistake or had an error of judgment.

    I also don't think its appropriate to celebrate anybody's death. Its okay though to be happy about the fact that evil may become a little less in the world, but still i feel its inappropriate to celebrate someone's death in itself.
     
    Rakhel likes this.
  14. Sahar

    Sahar Read

    Messages:
    5,200
    Actually, I think we disagree with Bin Laden about the means. I don't think the majority of Muslims disagree with the approach of recognizing and announcing the USA and Israel as the first enemies to Muslims. The American invasion in any country and the Israeli occupation must be resisted, without any doubt.
    I don't disagree with fighting against the American invasion and imperialism but the means should be legitimate. We shouldn't act like America by killing innocent people. The USA didn't mind destroying cities and killing hundreds of thousand of innocents by atomic bombs. Muslims are not like that at all. We have our morals. So the goal and means should be clean. The goal and the means of our enemies are the dirtiest, but we shouldn't be like them.
     
  15. Badran

    Badran Well-Known Member Staff Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    15,142
    Not recognizing the fact that the US government and Israeli government are enemies would be delusional to put it lightly. Of course not only is there nothing wrong with fighting them, but actually its an obligation to fight them and protect ourselves and/or other innocent people that happen to be under the oppression of those governments and their military.

    The only problem with Bin Laden was how far was he willing to justify things for this cause (if it was indeed his cause), which resulted in him being exactly like those he's supposedly against. Because he did what they do, even if it was a reaction still that doesn't justify it neither makes it worthy of sympathy.
     
  16. Sajdah

    Sajdah Al-Aqsa Is In My Heart.

    Messages:
    886
    True, some people claim that he wasn't responsible for every single thing done by Al-Qaeda, and they didn't take direct orders from him before carrying out any operation....If their claim was correct, then why didn't he clearly condemn such horrible operations, or he is not responsible for that and clarifies his approach that those groups in different countries have nothing to do with him...Unfortunately he didn't, so their logic is wrong!
    Yeah, it is an ideology which resulted in horrible crimes!
    You know that the ideology of Al Qaeda is not welcomed among the vast majority of Muslims, so I believe that the hatred of the American injustice, and her double-standard play a great role in such reaction...
    Exactly! Some Muslims started to search for excuses to justify their sympathy, once by saying it is Ijtihad, and sometimes by saying that he has the right to murder innocents because they do the same thing with us!!!!!!

    I don't think that praying for him is a sign of accepting his ideology, he is a Muslim Sahar, and we pray for all dead Muslims, including criminals... We are not going to judge them, Allah knows what they did, and what they deserve!
     
  17. Sajdah

    Sajdah Al-Aqsa Is In My Heart.

    Messages:
    886
    Anyway I hope that Media wouldn't give this incident too much time and efforts in analysing it, there is a genocide happening in Syria, it is more important than the death of one person, criminal, or Mujahid, it doesn't matter....After all he is dead!
     
  18. Sahar

    Sahar Read

    Messages:
    5,200
    Wallahy, regardless, the whole assassination thing doesn't make me happy.
     
  19. Sahar

    Sahar Read

    Messages:
    5,200
    Maybe, you are right.

    Yes, true. We should focus again on Syria and the other Arab countries.
     
  20. Bismillah

    Bismillah Submit

    Messages:
    4,212
    Religion:
    Islam
    Muslims sympathized with him because he was inherited the corruption and wealth of the Saudis and used it as a platform to condemn America and the West, he took a violent stance against their agenda.

    He also used his tools to create discord among Muslims and propagated Takfiri doctrine and was directly responsible for the deaths of many innocent Muslims.

    I like what Robert Fisk says, "He is a figure who would be reflected upon."
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2011
Verification:
Draft saved Draft deleted