Orthodox view of Hell and those who say "Lord, Lord"

[Sultan Of Swing]

I've heard that there is an Eastern Orthodox belief that Hell is being in the presence of God, not separated from Him, but because of that person's hatred of God, this existence is akin to suffering.

However, I'm also pretty sure that the Orthodox do not think merely believing in Christ is sufficient for salvation, the faith must grow in one's life and the person must work out their salvation as they strive toward achieving theosis.

However, what of those who profess faith in Christ, but do not act on that faith and do not let it grow in their lives? What of those who believe in Christ and accept Him, but do nothing in their lives to reflect that faith and it remains dead?

If these people are not saved, but instead enter Hell, what kind of a loss is that? Surely the person who has faith would still be delighted by God's presence? How is that a punishment? If someone has faith, but does not act on that faith, it does not mean they will go on to hate God, surely they will be relieved to be in His presence?

Imagine those too who reject God's true Church, and remain defiantly Protestant or Catholic? If they are not saved, would they truly go on to hate God in Hell? Surely they too would be glad to be in His presence?

 

[Shiranui117]

Just wanna say that I have seen this, but I may have to wait until Sunday to give a response when I'm back home. But I will get to it--it's a great question!

 

[Shiranui117]

I've heard that there is an Eastern Orthodox belief that Hell is being in the presence of God, not separated from Him, but because of that person's hatred of God, this existence is akin to suffering.

Yes, this is in line with the Psalm where God says that the wicked will become like a furnace in the time of His presence, and with Hebrews 12:29, where God describes Himself as a consuming fire.

However, I'm also pretty sure that the Orthodox do not think merely believing in Christ is sufficient for salvation, the faith must grow in one's life and the person must work out their salvation as they strive toward achieving theosis.

Absolutely. Faith is the beginning of good works, but faith without works is dead.

However, what of those who profess faith in Christ, but do not act on that faith and do not let it grow in their lives? What of those who believe in Christ and accept Him, but do nothing in their lives to reflect that faith and it remains dead?

They are hypocrites. If Christ is risen and extends to us the offer of eternal life, it should completely transform and revolutionize our lives. Everything we do should be done in the context of Christ's Resurrection and the offer of drinking the water of eternal life.

If these people are not saved, but instead enter Hell, what kind of a loss is that? Surely the person who has faith would still be delighted by God's presence? How is that a punishment? If someone has faith, but does not act on that faith, it does not mean they will go on to hate God, surely they will be relieved to be in His presence?

An excellent point, but think: If they refuse to follow Christ and seek after Him, if they don't take up their own cross, then aren't they putting themselves above God? Do they truly love Him if they do nothing for Him and think nothing of Him? They still remain estranged from Him. They have an intellectual belief that God exists and is good and has offered salvation to all, but they don't have faith in Him.

Imagine those too who reject God's true Church, and remain defiantly Protestant or Catholic? If they are not saved, would they truly go on to hate God in Hell? Surely they too would be glad to be in His presence?

It depends on why they reject the Church. Did they do it out of ignorance of what the Church teaches, and did they sincerely believe that the Catholic Church or one of the many Protestant denominations is the true Church, and the place where they can best grow in their relationship with God and their walk with Christ? Then I don't begrudge them that decision; it has been made with sincerity and out of a firm belief that this choice is God's will.

God knows that I want the same respect for my decision from my Catholic friends to become Orthodox--it'd be hypocritical for me to deny the same respect to Orthodox who leave to become Catholics or Protestants. I would certainly urge them to study Orthodoxy and the target church/denomination thoroughly and help them in giving perspective as I can, but if they believe that leaving Orthodoxy for another church will best help them in theosis, then who am I to pass judgement on them? They are making their decision out of love for God and a desire to go where they feel the Holy Spirit takes them. I'll quote the famous Orthodox maxim: "We know where the Holy Spirit is. We don't know where He isn't."

On the other hand, those who leave Holy Orthodoxy solely because the life of an Orthodox Christian is too inconvenient for them and requires too much effort, or those who spurn the True Faith for no other reason than they don't like it or don't care about it and want to do only what is pleasing to them, I believe these will have a lot to answer for. They actively and knowingly reject Christ and His Church.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Ah, thank you for the answer, it makes more sense to me now.

I just find difficulty with it on a personal level. As a Christian I love God, have faith in Him, but I often fail in my Christian walk and stumble, etc.

When thinking of the afterlife, however, I can only think of relief to be in God's presence, I wouldn't see it as a punishment, for I truly love God... despite my many failures. If I pass away while in sin, the possibility of Hell is there I suppose, but I don't know how it would be a punishment, for me, to be in God's presence.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[Shiranui117]

Ah, thank you for the answer, it makes more sense to me now.

I just find difficulty with it on a personal level. As a Christian I love God, have faith in Him, but I often fail in my Christian walk and stumble, etc.

In short, there's a quote from His Holiness, Pope Shenouda III of the Coptic Orthodox Church, of thrice-blessed memory: "In heaven, God will not ask us why we sinned; He will ask us why we didn’t repent." I always feel guilty because I know there's always one more righteous thing I can do, a few more minutes or times of day I can pray, and a lot more effort against temptation that I can put up. But I trust that even though I'm not perfect now, and even though my growth won't be done when I die, I know that, God willing, it will continue in the New Jerusalem, when Heaven is on earth.

I remember reading a saying from the Desert Fathers, and while I think I found the quote, it stuck in my mind differently... It might have to do with the fact that my martial arts instructor always tells us that if we fall down seven times, we should get up eight.

The quote is from St. John of Karpathos:
My brethren, do all that is in your power not to fall, for the strong athlete should not fall, but, if you do fall, get up again at once, and continue the contest. Even if you fall a thousand times, because of the withdrawal of God’s grace, rise up again at each time, and keep on doing so until the day of your death. For it is written: “If a righteous man falls seven times,” that is, repeatedly throughout his life, “seven times shall he rise again.”

But I swear I read somewhere that the difference between men and demons is this: Demons fall and don't get up again. Men always get back up after they've fallen. It isn't how often we fall that counts. It's whether or not we get back up after we've fallen.

When thinking of the afterlife, however, I can only think of relief to be in God's presence, I wouldn't see it as a punishment, for I truly love God... despite my many failures. If I pass away while in sin, the possibility of Hell is there I suppose, but I don't know how it would be a punishment, for me, to be in God's presence.

Any thoughts on this?

If you die repentant of your sins and with a true love for God, I think you're in good hands. We all have sins to repent for, and we will all die regretting the sins we've committed and wishing we'd progressed further in theosis. But St. John Chrysostom said in his Paschal Sermon: "And he both accepts the deeds, and welcomes the intention, and honors the acts and praises the offering." Basically, the main thing is that we sincerely try to do what we can.