Origins Of Evil

[jasonwill2]

-*many quotes about Satan*-

Ok I wanted to respond to many things, but this line of talk is the one I will go most into. As for Einstein, he was a panentheist.


NOW, ON TO YOU SILLY CHRISTIANS, MUAHAHA! :fork:

Before, I start, I want to say a few words... from the Satanic Bible.

The Book of Satan
​

The pulpit-pounders of the past have been free to define "good" and "evil" as they see fit, and have gladly smashed into oblivion any who disagree with their lies - both verbally and, at times, physically. Their talk of "charity", when applied to His Infernal Majesty, becomes an empty sham - and most unfairly, too, considering the obvious fact that without their Satanic foe their very religions would collapse. How sad, that the allegorical personage most responsible for the success of spiritual religions is shown the least amount of charity and the most consistent abuse - and by those who most unctuously preach the rules of fair play! For all the centuries of shouting-down the Devil has received, he has never shouted back at his detractors. He has remained the gentleman at all times, while those he supports rant and rave. He has shown himself to be a model of deportment, but now he feels it is time to shout back...

...
​

5. Too long right and wrong, good and evil have been inverted by false prophets!

6. No creed must be accepted upon authority of a "divine" nature. Religions must be put to the question. No moral dogma must be taken for granted - no standard of measurement deified. There is nothing inherently sacred about moral codes. Like the wooden idols of long ago, they are the work of human hands, and what man has made, man can destroy!

7. He that is slow to believe anything and everything is of great understanding, for belief in one false principle is the beginning of all unwisdom.

The Book of Lucifer
​

The truth alone has never set anyone free. It is only DOUBT which will bring mental emancipation. Without the wonderful element of doubt, the doorway through which truth passes would be tightly shut, impervious to the most strenuous poundings of a thousand Lucifers. How understandable that Holy Scripture should refer to the Infernal monarch as the "father of lies" - a magnificent example of character inversion. If one is to believe this theological accusation that the Devil represents falsehood, then it surely must be concurred that it was HE, NOT GOD, THAT ESTABLISHED ALL SPIRITUAL RELIGIONS AND WHO WROTE ALL OF THE HOLY BIBLES!

Wanted! God, Dead or Alive (Book of Lucifer)
​

Anyone who thinks of Satan as evil should consider all the men, women, children, and animals who have died because it was "God's will". Certainly a person grieving the untimely loss of a loved one whould much rather have their loved one with them than in God's hands! Instead, they are unctuously consoled by their clergyman who says, "It was God's will, my dear"; or "He is in God's hands now, my son." Such phrases have been a convenient way for religionists to condone or excuse the mercilessness of God. But if God is in complete control and as benign as he is supposed to be, why does He allow these things to happen? Too long have religionists been falling back on their bibles and rulebooks to prove or disprove, justify, condemn, or interpret. The Satanist realizes that man, and the action and reaction of the universe, is responsible for everything, and doesn't mislead himself into thinking that someone cares. No longer will we sit back and accept "fate" without doing anything about it, just because it says so in Chapter such and such, Psalm so and so - and that's that!

Satan is not "evil", and he does not want a bunch of worship. The ONLY person he ever asked in the Bible to worship him was Jesus. Your god has ordered animal sacrifices, stoning of mouthy kids and propagated misogyny and homophobia for hundreds of years.

Don't believe me? Here is a breakdown of the "evil" of Satan. Compared to your god, he's a much nicer guy: Satan and "Evil" in Christianity

YAHWEH IS A GOD OF EVIL, WHO ONLY HAS US TO "GLORIFY" HIM. SATAN IS A GOD OF MAN, WHO WANTS TO MAKE US HIS PEERS!

And you are right about that unforgivable sin in those verses. I would know; I used to be a Christian and I wanted to cut the metaphysical bond with your god just in case. This stuff is real: The ultimate rite of blasphemy for ex-Christians: Renunciation of the Trinity

And your Bible does not say that he wants man to "worship" him, it only says that he wants to lead people away from Christ. But given how evil I think your god is, I think that is a right and just thing to do; to de-convert people to no particular faith through education.


Your lies about Satan (properly Ha-Satan) is sickening to me. Ha-Satan is ancient Hebrew for "The Accuser". Satan was a freakin' pronoun, used to mean "accuser, one who opposes, adversary". Ha-Satan was supposedly an angel in your god's court, not an evil entity. He was testing Job as (supposedly) according to Yahweh's will.

If your god is love, and hate and hell is being separated from him, then I want every single person to ever live on this earth to be filled with evil and sin, and go to "hell".

There is no Hell:

The Book of Satan
​

There is no heaven of glory bright, and no hell where sinners roast. Here and now is our day of torment! Here and now is our day of joy! Here and now is our opportunity!Choose ye this day, this hour, for no redeemer liveth!

Though I believe there is a place called "Heaven" where all of you will end up as slaves to your god. He says he loves us, he says that he IS love. Well I'll tell you, your god is anything but love. He is an egotistical narcissist who loves blood being spilled! He DEMANDED that innocent animals be slaughtered for forgiveness, and HE LET HIS OWN SON DIE! What kind of god requires blood to be spilled so that we may be forgiven? We have no choice to sin or not, we will sin no matter what; we were born into sin. We have to sin just to survive!

Hell, The Devil, and How to Sell your Soul (Book of Lucifer)
​

The false doctrine of Hell and the Devil has allowed the Protestant and Catholic Churches to flourish far too long. Without a devil to point their fingers at, religionists of the right hand path would have nothing with which to threaten their followers. "Satan leads you to temptation"; "Satan is the prince of evil"; "Satan is vicious, cruel, brutal," they warn. "If you give in to the temptations of the devil, you will surely suffer eternal damnation and roast in Hell."

The semantic meaning of Satan is the "adversary" or "opposition" or the "accuser". The very word "devil" comes from the Indian devi which means "god". Satan represents opposition to all religions which serve to frustrate and condemn man for his natural instincts. He has been given an evil role simply because he represents the carnal, earthly, and mundane aspects of life.

Love and Hate (Book of Lucifer)
​

There has never been a great "love" movement in the history of the world that hasn't wound up killing countless numbers of people, we must assume, to prove how much they loved them! Every hypocrite who ever walked the earth has had pockets buldging with love!

Also, I can't seem to find the part in there that says this, but basically the Christian Church formulated the sins to be things we all have to do to survive, so that we all sin, and so that we all need forgiven. A nice bed of lies if I may so myself. People need to stop using Satan as a scapegoat. Historically he has never been given the amount of power he is today; he used to be an easily fooled bafoon; he used to not have horns or be a goat, that was a perversion of the ancient god Pan. He is not Lucifer (Satanist source: Satan, "ha-satan," Lucifer, and the Nephilim Christian source: Lucifer is not Satan), and he is NOT EVIL!

Oddly enough, on the scapegoat thing...

Hell, The Devil, and How to Sell your Soul (Book of Lucifer)

​

Satan, the chief devil of the Western World, was originally an angel whose duty was to report human delinquencies to God. It was not until the Fourteenth Century that he began to be depicted as an evil deity who was part man and part animal, with goat-like horns and hooves...

[I should note that for hundreds of years before that Satan was depicted as evil, but not with the animal traits. LaVey here is talking specifically about the animal traits here that were once Pan's]

...[a bit down the page]...

The association of the goat with the Devil is found in the Christian Bible, where the holiest day of the year, the Day of Atonement, was celebrated by casting lots for two goats "without blemish", one to be offered to the Lord, and one to Azazel. The goat carrying the sins of the people was driven into the desert and became a "scapegoat". This is the origin of the goat which is still used in lodge ceremonies today as it was also used in Egypt, where once a year it was sacrificed to a God.

IN NOMINE SATANA! SHEMHAMFORASH! AVE SATANA!

 

[riley2112]

-*many quotes about Satan*-

Ok I wanted to respond to many things, but this line of talk is the one I will go most into. As for Einstein, he was a panentheist.


NOW, ON TO YOU SILLY CHRISTIANS, MUAHAHA! :fork:

Before, I start, I want to say a few words... from the Satanic Bible.

Satan is not "evil", and he does not want a bunch of worship. The ONLY person he ever asked in the Bible to worship him was Jesus. Your god has ordered animal sacrifices, stoning of mouthy kids and propagated misogyny and homophobia for hundreds of years.

Don't believe me? Here is a breakdown of the "evil" of Satan. Compared to your god, he's a much nicer guy: Satan and "Evil" in Christianity

YAHWEH IS A GOD OF EVIL, WHO ONLY HAS US TO "GLORIFY" HIM. SATAN IS A GOD OF MAN, WHO WANTS TO MAKE US HIS PEERS!

And you are right about that unforgivable sin in those verses. I would know; I used to be a Christian and I wanted to cut the metaphysical bond with your god just in case. This stuff is real: The ultimate rite of blasphemy for ex-Christians: Renunciation of the Trinity

And your Bible does not say that he wants man to "worship" him, it only says that he wants to lead people away from Christ. But given how evil I think your god is, I think that is a right and just thing to do; to de-convert people to no particular faith through education.


Your lies about Satan (properly Ha-Satan) is sickening to me. Ha-Satan is ancient Hebrew for "The Accuser". Satan was a freakin' pronoun, used to mean "accuser, one who opposes, adversary". Ha-Satan was supposedly an angel in your god's court, not an evil entity. He was testing Job as (supposedly) according to Yahweh's will.

If your god is love, and hate and hell is being separated from him, then I want every single person to ever live on this earth to be filled with evil and sin, and go to "hell".

There is no Hell:

Though I believe there is a place called "Heaven" where all of you will end up as slaves to your god. He says he loves us, he says that he IS love. Well I'll tell you, your god is anything but love. He is an egotistical narcissist who loves blood being spilled! He DEMANDED that innocent animals be slaughtered for forgiveness, and HE LET HIS OWN SON DIE! What kind of god requires blood to be spilled so that we may be forgiven? We have no choice to sin or not, we will sin no matter what; we were born into sin. We have to sin just to survive!

Also, I can't seem to find the part in there that says this, but basically the Christian Church formulated the sins to be things we all have to do to survive, so that we all sin, and so that we all need forgiven. A nice bed of lies if I may so myself. People need to stop using Satan as a scapegoat. Historically he has never been given the amount of power he is today; he used to be an easily fooled bafoon; he used to not have horns or be a goat, that was a perversion of the ancient god Pan. He is not Lucifer (Satanist source: Satan, "ha-satan," Lucifer, and the Nephilim Christian source: Lucifer is not Satan), and he is NOT EVIL!

Oddly enough, on the scapegoat thing...

IN NOMINE SATANA! SHEMHAMFORASH! AVE SATANA!

 

[muhammad_isa]

What is the nature of the devil? What is the nature or angels? What is the difference between man and angel?

devil:
his/her nature is one of envy of the success of mankind, and wants to divert them from the illumination of knowledge/truth .. the original satan himself, is very knowledgable, but fell from piety due to his envy of mankind .. there are many devils (including men & women) who follow his path

angels:
They are Almighty God's servants, and although they may 'sin' unknowingly, they can't purposefully disobey God .. they were created without this responsibilty

mankind:
We can excel in piety or we can follow devil(s) .. we have been given the responsibility of our own affairs

 

[jasonwill2]

Why did you quote me then remove all the verses from the Satanic Bible? They were relevant for the discussion at hand; we are in the "theological concepts" forum; not a Christian one. I don't see why I can't provide an alternative.

We need to consider the possibility that "god" i not all loving by our definition, but that perhaps to god "love" is whatever he says it is, and that "evil" is anything that is against him, even if the very thing he is is evil by humanistic standards.

Based purely on a harm vs benefit scale, Yahweh has done much more evil then Satan has ever done.


Edit: Also I was trying to be dramatic on purpose, but I can see it backfired. I was trying to do a bit' of lesser magic. I thought I could make my points taken more seriously if I presented them with a bit' of 'force' so to speak; I wanted to make it very clear that the line of thought wasn't going in the right direction imo.


Also for the guy that just posted above me, you guys need to stop using Satan as a scapegoat. If God created everything then he created Satan; we still have the same issue with the problem of evil; Satan is just used as an excuse; if God is all powerful then he HAD to of either created evil, or let evil be created. There's no way around it; god is responsible for evil.

 

[riley2112]

devil:
his/her nature is one of envy of the success of mankind, and wants to divert them from the illumination of knowledge/truth .. the original satan himself, is very knowledgable, but fell from piety due to his envy of mankind .. there are many devils (including men & women) who follow his path

angels:
They are Almighty God's servants, and although they may 'sin' unknowingly, they can't purposefully disobey God .. they were created without this responsibilty

mankind:
We can excel in piety or we can follow devil(s) .. we have been given the responsibility of our own affairs

Please forgive me if I am wrong here, however , if I remember correctly, Satan was an angel and fell taking with him a lot of the angels. Now if that is correct then it would seem that an angel not only can but did disobey God on purpose. So that being said , how do you respond about your statement?

 

[jasonwill2]

Please forgive me if I am wrong here, however , if I remember correctly, Satan was an angel and fell taking with him a lot of the angels. Now if that is correct then it would seem that an angel not only can but did disobey God on purpose. So that being said , how do you respond about your statement?

His position sounds more like the Islamic one. given his screen name, I think he might be a Muslim.

Also Satan wasn't cast down. Please give me the verse claiming that. (don't give me a verse about Lucifer or I will just hand you a bunch of links disproving that Lucifer is Satan. Calling the two the same is a pet peeve of mine, Luciferians, and Jews)

 

[Sleeppy]

His position sounds more like the Islamic one. given his screen name, I think he might be a Muslim.

Also Satan wasn't cast down. Please give me the verse claiming that. (don't give me a verse about Lucifer or I will just hand you a bunch of links disproving that Lucifer is Satan. Calling the two the same is a pet peeve of mine, Luciferians, and Jews)

.. like lightning fall from Heaven.

 

[riley2112]

Why did you quote me then remove all the verses from the Satanic Bible? They were relevant for the discussion at hand; we are in the "theological concepts" forum; not a Christian one. I don't see why I can't provide an alternative.

We need to consider the possibility that "god" i not all loving by our definition, but that perhaps to god "love" is whatever he says it is, and that "evil" is anything that is against him, even if the very thing he is is evil by humanistic standards.

Based purely on a harm vs benefit scale, Yahweh has done much more evil then Satan has ever done.


Edit: Also I was trying to be dramatic on purpose, but I can see it backfired. I was trying to do a bit' of lesser magic. I thought I could make my points taken more seriously if I presented them with a bit' of 'force' so to speak; I wanted to make it very clear that the line of thought wasn't going in the right direction imo.


Also for the guy that just posted above me, you guys need to stop using Satan as a scapegoat. If God created everything then he created Satan; we still have the same issue with the problem of evil; Satan is just used as an excuse; if God is all powerful then he HAD to of either created evil, or let evil be created. There's no way around it; god is responsible for evil.

I alway thought Evil was the absents of God. And I did not take anything out of the post , when I hit quote that is just the way it works I guess. Also I believe truly that you have the right to give your thoughts as you have , I read them , found them to be absurd and forgot them. However, after seeing your last post I do believe I will reread the first post and give it some thought. For me to just dismiss it like that seems rude after second thought, besides , I may learn something. Please forgive my bias actions.:seesaw:

 

[riley2112]

His position sounds more like the Islamic one. given his screen name, I think he might be a Muslim.

Also Satan wasn't cast down. Please give me the verse claiming that. (don't give me a verse about Lucifer or I will just hand you a bunch of links disproving that Lucifer is Satan. Calling the two the same is a pet peeve of mine, Luciferians, and Jews)

would love to see the links , if only to educate myself.

 

[riley2112]

His position sounds more like the Islamic one. given his screen name, I think he might be a Muslim.

Also Satan wasn't cast down. Please give me the verse claiming that. (don't give me a verse about Lucifer or I will just hand you a bunch of links disproving that Lucifer is Satan. Calling the two the same is a pet peeve of mine, Luciferians, and Jews)

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
Isaiah 14:12, KJV

sorry you asked not to use this one , ok , And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."
Revelation 12:7-12, KJV

There are others ,

 

[jasonwill2]

.. like lightning fall from Heaven.

The verse man, I want the reference and quotation. I just better not be the one about the Babylonian King.

would love to see the links , if only to educate myself.

I put the two in my last post, but I think I might be able to find more real quick:

ones I already posted:

Lucifer is not Satan
Satan, "ha-satan," Lucifer, and the Nephilim

Though that second link apparently has the first link in it too; the second link is actually a list of many links dispelling the Lucifer/Satan myth.

Apparently from that list though, only these worked for me. I think Diane Vera made that part of the page a number of years ago; some of the links may lead to pages that do not exist anymore.

Lucifer - where did the word come from and what is its true meaning?
http://members.cox.net/galatians/Lucifer.htm
"Some Light on Lucifer" by Ina Belderis

Also a bunch of us LHP people, myself included, in different places said how Satan and Lucifer are two different guys:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...y-do-you-consider-luciferianism-satanism.html


Edit: ok, I found three links on a quick search, they look like they support my assertion:

http://www.godfire.net/Lucifer.html
http://www.steliart.com/angelology_fallen_archangel.html

THOUGH THIS THIRD ONE LOOKS LIKE IT EXPLAINS WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT WITH THE ONE VERSE IN THE BIBLE ABOUT LUCIFER:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread569503/pg1

part of it says: "And so, from 1667, Lucifer became an alternative name for Satan, while its association with Venus, light bearer and goddess of love, was forgotten by way of clerical indoctrination. What is perhaps surprising is that, more than three centuries later, the Puritan view is still being expressed by a body of hard-line religious extremists. They pretend on the Internet, and in their books, to be investigators into a liberal conspiracy, but in reality they pursue a modern-day which hunt that accuses Freemasons of being satanists and devil-worshipers. "

I havn't read all of it, but I'll bookmark this for a bit' later today.

--=---=

Essentially, Lucifer means "light bearer" or "morning star". In the passage where it says he was cast down it was used as a metaphor to describe how the Babylonian King wanted to become like god. The Hebrew folklore that the passage was based off is basically this:

The planet Venus, every morning, rises above the horizon for like an hour, then falls back down. This is a real astronomical event we can see even today. To the ancient Hebrews the piece of folklore grew that it was "the morning star", quite literally that Venus was an angel trying to rise high into the heavens to be like god; but every morning he was cast down for trying. Also Lucifer signaled that the sun was about to come up. Now when the passage was written, the writer was referring to this folklore for poetic use. The Babylonian King was trying to become like god, just as Lucifer did every morning. And like Lucifer, he would be cast down.

The world "lucifer" without a capitalization is used in other verses in the Bible, as a pronoun for "lightbearer" in a symbolic manner. Why do you think that they called some of the early matches "lucifers?" You struck them on something and made light, the matches were "lightbearers".

Satan and Lucifer have no relation; it was a manufactured connection that grew over time.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Please forgive me if I am wrong here, however , if I remember correctly, Satan was an angel..

Mmm .. a common misconception..
Angels are 'angelic' .. they are God's servants, and were created without responsibility .. they have souls/personalities as we do.

Yes, it's commonly believed by many that the devil is 'a fallen angel' .. this is because satan was originally with the angels .. as I say, he was pious and was created before Adam (mankind), as were the angels.
satan is actually 'a ghost' (jinn), and is made of "fire" (infra-red)

Angels are made of light (energy)
Mankind is made of clay/water (physical matter)

satan (whose personal name is Iblees) became furious, as the angels were asked to 'bow down' (submit/serve) to Adam :bow:
[ Mankind was the pinnacle of creation, and God gave them the responsibility of "our" planet earth ]
..they all did except Iblees (Lucifer) who claimed that he was superior .. many jinns joined him in disobedience/rebellion, but some, like mankind, are righteous.

So .. as you can see, both jinns and mankind bear responsibility for their decisions and actions.

 

[Sleeppy]

The verse man, I want the reference and quotation. I just better not be the one about the Babylonian King.

Luke 10:18 I was beholding Satan, as lightning from the heaven having fallen.

 

[riley2112]

Mmm .. a common misconception..
Angels are 'angelic' .. they are God's servants, and were created without responsibility .. they have souls/personalities as we do.

Yes, it's commonly believed by many that the devil is 'a fallen angel' .. this is because satan was originally with the angels .. as I say, he was pious and was created before Adam (mankind), as were the angels.
satan is actually 'a ghost' (jinn), and is made of "fire" (infra-red)

Angels are made of light (energy)
Mankind is made of clay/water (physical matter)

satan (whose personal name is Iblees) became furious, as the angels were asked to 'bow down' (submit/serve) to Adam :bow:
[ Mankind was the pinnacle of creation, and God gave them the responsibility of "our" planet earth ]
..they all did except Iblees (Lucifer) who claimed that he was superior .. many jinns joined him in disobedience/rebellion, but some, like mankind, are righteous.

So .. as you can see, both jinns and mankind bear responsibility for their decisions and actions.

What would you say is the difference between fire (infra-red) and energy? I understand that the light and heat from the fire is energy,however matter is anything that has mass and occupies space. The flame itself is a mixture of gases (vaporized fuel, oxygen, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, water vapor, and many other things) and so is matter. So are you saying that Satan is made out of the same stuff humans are? And how do you define Ghost?

 

[jasonwill2]

Mmm .. a common misconception..
Angels are 'angelic' .. they are God's servants, and were created without responsibility .. they have souls/personalities as we do.

Yes, it's commonly believed by many that the devil is 'a fallen angel' .. this is because satan was originally with the angels .. as I say, he was pious and was created before Adam (mankind), as were the angels.
satan is actually 'a ghost' (jinn), and is made of "fire" (infra-red)

Angels are made of light (energy)
Mankind is made of clay/water (physical matter)

satan (whose personal name is Iblees) became furious, as the angels were asked to 'bow down' (submit/serve) to Adam :bow:
[ Mankind was the pinnacle of creation, and God gave them the responsibility of "our" planet earth ]
..they all did except Iblees (Lucifer) who claimed that he was superior .. many jinns joined him in disobedience/rebellion, but some, like mankind, are righteous.

So .. as you can see, both jinns and mankind bear responsibility for their decisions and actions.

But Satan wants man to rise to the status of gods... He wants us to be peers where as "god" wants us to be inferior. Satan wants us to be equal.

Christian source to support my stance: Truth about Relationship Between God and Satan

Oh, I love it when I remember to bookmark an important article after reading it! Though I do not believe in Christian doctrine, I find it refreshing when a Christian trying to clear up a misconception shows that it's not like the Churches really say it is.

Hail Satan, who has invited me to become as a god! He's not evil, he's good and represents the entirety of man; Satan is the ultimate incarnation of man's nature and spirit; he is a creator and destroyer, a lover and a hater. Satan is the god of man and of life; he emulates every evolutionary and creative force ever seen in life. To be a Satanist it to be the ultimate embodiment of life, of man.

This isn't evil, it's natural. How can something like Satan, who has kept life along for so long (evolutionary forces and man's nature) be evil? If it is evil then that means that evil is necessary for survival... meaning that we have to sin just to live, meaning that as long as we live we can't be sinless...

 

[riley2112]

But Satan wants man to rise to the status of gods... He wants us to be peers where as "god" wants us to be inferior. Satan wants us to be equal.

Christian source to support my stance: Truth about Relationship Between God and Satan

Oh, I love it when I remember to bookmark an important article after reading it! Though I do not believe in Christian doctrine, I find it refreshing when a Christian trying to clear up a misconception shows that it's not like the Churches really say it is.

Hail Satan, who has invited me to become as a god! He's not evil, he's good and represents the entirety of man; Satan is the ultimate incarnation of man's nature and spirit; he is a creator and destroyer, a lover and a hater. Satan is the god of man and of life; he emulates every evolutionary and creative force ever seen in life. To be a Satanist it to be the ultimate embodiment of life, of man.

This isn't evil, it's natural. How can something like Satan, who has kept life along for so long (evolutionary forces and man's nature) be evil? If it is evil then that means that evil is necessary for survival... meaning that we have to sin just to live, meaning that as long as we live we can't be sinless...

I have enough problems being a man, I have no desire to be a God. Just so I don't get confused here ,you believe in Satan? And that he is in battle with Heaven. Just wondering.

 

[jasonwill2]

Luke 10:18 I was beholding Satan, as lightning from the heaven having fallen.

I shall investigate this...

...crap, can't find the original meaning or an article that refutes this verse on my first few searches. Though keep in mind that Satan means "accuser" adversary", or "one who opposes".

I still do not get it though; their is an inconsistency here; the Hebrews didn't have that concept of Satan; it didn't appear until Christianity came in. The fact that this verse, like many of Satan in Revelation, are so deeply contrasted with The Old Testament shows some 'patch work' on the hands of Christians.

The old pagan (pre-christian) gods were demoted into demons or devils when Christianity started to really take off. It wouldn't suprize me that the early Christians mistook Ha-Satan as an evil entity. From a Biblical standpoint, Ha-Satan wasn't really evil, but merely testing Job as was his job in Jehovah's court.

If I wanted to reconcile this from a Biblical perspective I would have to say that Lucifer was the first being to turn from Yahweh, and that Satan is some one else. That Satan is Ha-Satan gone rouge. It makes sense; Lucifer is a light bearer and enlightener in Luciferianism. He is a much better candidate for the Serpent in the Garden; as he brought the knowledge of good and evil to man.

This would mean that Lucifer was the the origin of evil, and that Satan only came along much later after he went rogue. It would seem that, if the Bible was taken as the whole truth (which it's not in my opinion), that at some point Lucifer waned in power and Satan took over.

As per how Satan is in Satanism, this would fit with that too. What would a rogue tester and accuser do? Make man fall into sin AND ENJOY IT. "Satan represents all the so-called sins..." as one of the Satanic statements say.

So I conclude that IF the Bible was true with it's verses about Lucifer and Satan and the Serpent, it would be the case that Lucifer was the first evil, that employed the serpent. This serpent may or may of not been Satan, if it was that kind of runs against the book of Job.

So I guess from a Christian perspective, Lucifer is the origin of evil, not Satan. Satan would merely be "following in the footsteps" so to speak; not the first evil, but a stronger angel that is going by the way that Lucifer, a weaker angel, cleared.


I kind of found that an interesting exercise to think about; thinking in that way with other belief systems I sometimes find refreshing.

So does this solve this for a Christian perspective? Lucifer is the original evil, and that Satan only joined up later, to be cast down will all the demons? And that Satan just happens to be the strongest of all of them?

I think we should give some other faiths a turn though on the evil thing. Like I've said there is no reason to limit to one or two world views. I do not think I've seen any atheist or Jewish views on this yet, though I am most interested on a Wiccan and Hindu view.

 

[jasonwill2]

I have enough problems being a man, I have no desire to be a God. Just so I don't get confused here ,you believe in Satan? And that he is in battle with Heaven. Just wondering.

I am a pantheist and a Satanist. I believe that the Universe is literally God. That God is unconscious and the sum of all things; that he is not greater, but equal to creation.

I believe that Satan is one of 5 conscious incarnations that God uses to show himself to man. I have not discovered the 5th one yet, but the others I know of are Lilith, Lucifer, and Set.

I believe that other than my five gods and THE GOD, that every divine being to ever exist was once a man or a woman that became a god. The ancient Romans' concept of this was that any man could become a god after death if people chose to worship them. It's a related concept for me.

Gods like Zeus of Shiva, or whatever were once men or women to me. In fact, this "gods who were once men" is a belief in voodoo. I think they may have caught on to becoming 'lesserl gods; from the research I have done many of their ancestors manifest themselves as spirits. And these spirits possess an honored one so that the dead may live on through the living. I do not agree that the dead need to eat through the living though, but that's one of their beliefs that if the possessed person does not eat, that the spirit will die.

I simply believe that Yahweh is one of these "man gods". A god I do not like very much, but still very much a god. I think that he's somewhere around 3000-4000 years old. Where as Satan, Lilith, Set, ect ect are all 15 billion years old (the age of the Universe).

I do not believe in Hell, but a place called 'Heaven" that is the true hell. Basically Yahweh set up a magically bound prison where he turns his followers into slaves after death for his evil plans.

I believe that if one fails to become a literal god in death through being a metaphorical god in their life, that they simply forfeit consciousness. To be a god literally is for your intelligence to survive death. To not survive is for your intelligence to die, and for your unconscious identity to float throughout the world for all eternity in what would feel like the deepest of deep sleep; It's a peaceful thing.

I believe that the only war between Satan and Yahweh is the one that Yahweh is trying to force on Satan. But to force a war on Satan is like trying to force a war on the Universe. I'm a pantheist, and so I believe that the mundane and spiritual reside in the same realm... the Universe is all that there is in my system, it is God. So for Yahweh to wage war against Satan is to wage war against all of reality, all of nature, and against everything to ever exist. To try and wage war against man and life.

To me anyone who derides Satan because he represents everything that man is, is also deriding all of reality. So to me then evil would be to wage war against God. The Real God could could less if you worshiped him or not. But to wage war against It is to wage war against yourself and your loved ones... and to wage war against God is to wage war against Nature.

So when one rejects and talks down to Satan for representing man's nature, they are evil, for they are rejecting their very inherent nature and all of reality and everything to ever exist. It makes little sense to wage war against God in this view, but if one commits to it they will destroy themselves for they are literally part of God; through my five gods The Darkness created man. Man is a reflection of Nature and God. So anyone who would truly wage war against Satan is asking for self-destruction. But in all reality, it's virtually impossible to actually attack Satan or the real God; it would be like shooting yourself in the face, so to speak.

Does that answer your question?

 

[riley2112]

I am a pantheist and a Satanist. I believe that the Universe is literally God. That God is unconscious and the sum of all things; that he is not greater, but equal to creation.

I believe that Satan is one of 5 conscious incarnations that God uses to show himself to man. I have not discovered the 5th one yet, but the others I know of are Lilith, Lucifer, and Set.

I believe that other than my five gods and THE GOD, that every divine being to ever exist was once a man or a woman that became a god. The ancient Romans' concept of this was that any man could become a god after death if people chose to worship them. It's a related concept for me.

Gods like Zeus of Shiva, or whatever were once men or women to me. In fact, this "gods who were once men" is a belief in voodoo. I think they may have caught on to becoming 'lesserl gods; from the research I have done many of their ancestors manifest themselves as spirits. And these spirits possess an honored one so that the dead may live on through the living. I do not agree that the dead need to eat through the living though, but that's one of their beliefs that if the possessed person does not eat, that the spirit will die.

I simply believe that Yahweh is one of these "man gods". A god I do not like very much, but still very much a god. I think that he's somewhere around 3000-4000 years old. Where as Satan, Lilith, Set, ect ect are all 15 billion years old (the age of the Universe).

I do not believe in Hell, but a place called 'Heaven" that is the true hell. Basically Yahweh set up a magically bound prison where he turns his followers into slaves after death for his evil plans.

I believe that if one fails to become a literal god in death through being a metaphorical god in their life, that they simply forfeit consciousness. To be a god literally is for your intelligence to survive death. To not survive is for your intelligence to die, and for your unconscious identity to float throughout the world for all eternity in what would feel like the deepest of deep sleep; It's a peaceful thing.

I believe that the only war between Satan and Yahweh is the one that Yahweh is trying to force on Satan. But to force a war on Satan is like trying to force a war on the Universe. I'm a pantheist, and so I believe that the mundane and spiritual reside in the same realm... the Universe is all that there is in my system, it is God. So for Yahweh to wage war against Satan is to wage war against all of reality, all of nature, and against everything to ever exist. To try and wage war against man and life.

To me anyone who derides Satan because he represents everything that man is, is also deriding all of reality. So to me then evil would be to wage war against God. The real god could could less if you worshiped him or not. But to wage war against It is to wage war against yourself and your loved ones... and to wage war against God is to wage war against Nature.

So when one rejects and talks down to Satan for representing man's nature, they are evil, for they are rejecting their very inherent nature and all of reality and everything to ever exist.

Does that answer your question?

yep. Everbody has got to believe something. I guess if I was to step out of the box. My beliefs would sound no more strange than yours. I will be reading up on the things you have exposed me to. Just to see what I see. Thank you .

 

[jasonwill2]

Your welcome. I think I edited in a bit more though from what you quoted there. I apologize if I came off as strong at first.

My personal flavor of Satanism is really weird I guess; it's a mix of pantheism, polytheism, and LaVeyan Satanism (which is atheistic but compatible with pantheism). A lot of Satanists have their own personal beliefs in this manner, it's just as well.

I would suggest reading up on pantheism and panentheism first. Pantheism gives a certain "awe" to it that is compatible on a number of levels with deism and nature worship. It also kind of boarders on atheism too, so it's a good gateway to trying to understand other beliefs. Panentheism is closer to a traditional view of monotheism though.

Pantheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Panentheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia