1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Original Sin

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trackdayguy, Apr 24, 2018.

  1. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    41,454
    Ratings:
    +21,743
    Religion:
    scientifically-oriented Catholic
    We've been though some of this before, and I have no interest to continue on with this, but I will say that the burden of proof doesn't fall upon me but upon you to prove that these interpretations are in error. If you truly are interested in finding out where their (RCC, OC, & Anglican) interpretations come from, including their scriptural basis, why don't you spend time to actually look it up using their sources or more objective sources.

    Here's a start for ya:

    Purgatory - Wikipedia

    Original sin - Wikipedia

    Trinity - Wikipedia



    For a good Catholic source, maybe check this: Catechism of the Catholic Church
     
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    41,454
    Ratings:
    +21,743
    Religion:
    scientifically-oriented Catholic
    Could you link me to your source for that?
     
  3. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    571
    Ratings:
    +82
    Religion:
    Universal Protestant
    Two points. (a) There is no Eph 2:33, (b) If you mean Eph 2:3, then I suggest that "corrupt nature" is not actually found in the Greek. It is an Augustinian interpretation that you are quoting, not a word-for-word translation,
     
  4. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    17,435
    Ratings:
    +18,669
    Religion:
    RC (culturally at least)
    Oddly enough I have, by coincidence, just had a go at this on another thread, here:
    "Evangelicals Question The Existence Of Adam And Eve"

    I don't claim this to be orthodox theology but it makes sense to me. I cannot say that Original Sin ever gave me a guilt trip during my Catholic upbringing, just a consciousness that we all have a predisposition to sin!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Kenny

    Kenny Face to face with my Father
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    19,425
    Ratings:
    +7,511
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    Were they without sin? Or without judgment?

    I ask these questions because I wonder if we are talking about two different animals here.
     
  6. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    9,179
    Ratings:
    +5,388
    Religion:
    Christian
    This misapplication of Scripture and the author of your posted article just negated one of the main reasons Jesus came to Earth.

    -- Romans 5:12..."Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin...."

    -- 1 Corinthians 15:22.

    If our sinful, i.e., imperfect, condition wasn't caused by Adam, then calling Jesus, "the Last Adam" in 1 Corinthians, has no meaning.

    If sin doesn't affect children....then why are so many born with physical deformities, or die from cancer, or genetic deficiencies?

    To be like children, means to be the opposite of arrogant; rather, humble and meek, willing to mold ourselves to be pleasing to God.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    5,567
    Ratings:
    +4,301
    Religion:
    atheist
    "If sin doesn't affect children....then why are so many born with physical deformities, or die from cancer, or genetic deficiencies?"

    Are you seriously suggesting that all children born with deformities or who die from cancer or genetic deficiencies are being punished by God for some perceived sin? And you worship such a horrendous God?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Trackdayguy

    Trackdayguy Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2018
    Messages:
    964
    Ratings:
    +562
    Religion:
    Universalist - Pelagianism - believer
    Your right that's a pretty sick concept.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,395
    Ratings:
    +1,624
    Religion:
    zen Xian

    Skwim has hit on the essence of original sin here; original sin is nothing more than our human nature of selfishness, which fundamentally separates us from God and His nature of love (selfishness, not hate, is the opposite of love). Selfishness helps us to survive and thrive in the physical world, but it is also the root of all evil. In fact, sin is nothing more than separation from God ("missing the mark" as some put it), so it's easy to see how all sin is rooted in the "original" sin of wanting to be our own gods.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    28,026
    Ratings:
    +11,918
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Thank you for catching my oversight, It was a typo that should, and now does, read "Ephesians 2:3."

    As I've pointed out before in other threads, what scholars have concluded was the wording in the original manuscripts is unimportant---for one thing, there's little agreement. What is important is what idea is transmitted by those who put together today's Bibles. At least four Bibles use the word "corrupt" in Eph 2:3, whereas others use, "passion," "desires," "cravings," and "lusts," among other terms. So it's really a crap shoot as to which best expresses the intention of the original writer. What these variations do provide are theological cherries to pick so as to flesh out ones theology as one sees fit. In one sense, Christianity is a true do-it-yourself religion. Don't like how the King James Bible translates the Hebrew ra in Isaiah 45:7 as "evil"? then you can pick the Amplified Bible that translates the word as "disaster," or the World English Bible that translates it as "calamity," or the New Life version that has watered down the meaning to just "trouble," or other Bibles that tell us god simply created "woe."

    "Evil"
    "Disaster"
    "Calamity"
    "trouble"
    "Woe"
    Hardly decent synonyms of one another. It's as if god really doesn't give a **** what his book says, or what his followers believe. So, the Bible having been redrafted and re-translated so many times and in so many different ways, what the original writers wrote is immaterial. And people don't read the original manuscripts.

    .
     
    #30 Skwim, Apr 24, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  11. Trackdayguy

    Trackdayguy Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2018
    Messages:
    964
    Ratings:
    +562
    Religion:
    Universalist - Pelagianism - believer
    The WORDS are irreverent, its the story that counts. What's the story
     
  12. Axe Elf

    Axe Elf Prophet

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2018
    Messages:
    2,395
    Ratings:
    +1,624
    Religion:
    zen Xian
    I do not think that word means what you think it means.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  13. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    28,026
    Ratings:
    +11,918
    Religion:
    Atheist
    "Irrelevant"? I don't know. I can't trust the words used to tell it.

    .
     
  14. Trackdayguy

    Trackdayguy Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2018
    Messages:
    964
    Ratings:
    +562
    Religion:
    Universalist - Pelagianism - believer
    Im happy for you to believe what ever you want.
     
  15. Trackdayguy

    Trackdayguy Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2018
    Messages:
    964
    Ratings:
    +562
    Religion:
    Universalist - Pelagianism - believer
    Its not possible to explain where original sin comes from in the Bible ITS NOT THERE, neither is the TRINITY. The saddest thing is how easy it is to dupe people. But the masses are all to happy to let someone tell them what to believe.
     
  16. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    39,466
    Ratings:
    +4,877
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    I think that original sin just means something imperfect that we all share. We are all imperfect. Right?
     
  17. Trackdayguy

    Trackdayguy Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2018
    Messages:
    964
    Ratings:
    +562
    Religion:
    Universalist - Pelagianism - believer
    We are for sure, but the Christian evangelical fundamentalist will tell us that Adam first sinned and as ancestors of Adam we are all born in sin. You have to admit you really gotta stretch your brain around making that work for you.
     
    #37 Trackdayguy, Apr 24, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  18. savagewind

    savagewind Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    39,466
    Ratings:
    +4,877
    Religion:
    An X-Jehovah's Witness
    True. Stretching of brains, I do not do.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    5,539
    Ratings:
    +1,715
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Original sin as I believe it is not that you bear the guilt of Adam and Eve but rather you bear their nature from birth. So because they sinned, you also are prone to sinful ways from birth and it was not originally so. God made Adam and Eve without any sinful way. However now we are stuck with a nature that is prone to sinful ways. This is why Jesus came who remakes us over again into the image of God so we can be free from sin.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    36,828
    Ratings:
    +16,973
    Religion:
    liber-scripta grim Christian
    I took a look at the site mentioned and in particular Finney's "How to Win Souls" translated by William Allen. Some comments in there seemed particularly poignant for our time: "... What do you suppose these ungodly politicians who know themselves to be playing a dishonest game, in carrying an election, think of your religion, when they see you uniting with them? They know that you are a hypocrite."

    I am not saying that I agree with him on every point on the site. Also he may not believe in 'Original sin' but still believes that people are sinful and lost until they are converted, which seems like much the same thing to me. He has a section on "How to approach the unsaved." How is this extremely different from Original Sin?

    He's an interesting writer who ought to be more well known among lay Christians as he seems to have lots of ideas. His writing seems complex and not fully mature, but he's much better than many modern writers who dither and pull facts from all over while mixing in superstitions and leave readers more confused than when they start.
     
Loading...