Origin of the Bible (Branch Thread)

[blü 2]

That’s just your opinion. Obviously Jesus the Son of God did have that authority.

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:12-16‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

But as I've already mentioned at least twice, if there was fault at all, it was not the moneychangers' fault but the fault of the Temple authorities. Jesus would presumably feel free to bash a traffic cop because he didn't like the traffic laws, instead of arguing with the legislators.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Jesus would presumably feel free to bash a traffic cop because he didn't like the traffic laws, instead of arguing with the legislators.

In his defense, he was hangry. A Snickers could have saved it all

 

[ElishaElijah]

But as I've already mentioned at least twice, if there was fault at all, it was not the moneychangers' fault but the fault of the Temple authorities. Jesus would presumably feel free to bash a traffic cop because he didn't like the traffic laws, instead of arguing with the legislators.

I already read and understood your opinion on the matter, I didn’t see much argument as Jesus went and healed people after that and love the response from the people.

 

[blü 2]

I already read and understood your opinion on the matter, I didn’t see much argument as Jesus went and healed people after that and love the response from the people.

I didn't say he was portrayed as all bad ─ I was pointing out that plainly he wasn't perfect, despite your claim.

And as you can see, according to John's author, Jesus didn't have the authority that you attributed to him ─ or at least he says he doesn't, though you think he's lying about not being God, so why not lie about his authority too, would you say?

 

[firedragon]

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.

That means he is doing work in the fathers name. That does not mean "I am God in the flesh".

 

[ElishaElijah]

But as I've already mentioned at least twice, if there was fault at all, it was not the moneychangers' fault but the fault of the Temple authorities. Jesus would presumably feel free to bash a traffic cop because he didn't like the traffic laws, instead of arguing with the legislators.

I already read and understood your opinion on the matter, I didn’t see much argument as Jesus went and healed people

That means he is doing work in the fathers name. That does not mean "I am God in the flesh".

If that’s all you read and not the rest of the Scriptures you could argue that. You’re missing His whole purpose of His mission as the Son of Man, The Lamb of God, Immanuel.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I didn't say he was portrayed as all bad ─ I was pointing out that plainly he wasn't perfect, despite your claim.

It’s the Bible’s and The Father’s claim

 

[firedragon]

If that’s all you read and not the rest of the Scriptures you could argue that. You’re missing His whole purpose of His mission as the Son of Man, The Lamb of God, Immanuel.

But still, in that quote, Jesus supposedly says that he was carrying out God the fathers orders. SO that's conflicting your statement which you said as if Jesus himself said it.

 

[ElishaElijah]

But still, in that quote, Jesus supposedly says that he was carrying out God the fathers orders. SO that's conflicting your statement which you said as if Jesus himself said it.

That’s not ALL that Jesus said about Himself. If you want to just show the verses where Jesus is saying He is a man and under The Fathers authority while He was on Earth then your only proving that God became a man and lived among us.

 

[blü 2]

I already read and understood your opinion on the matter, I didn’t see much argument as Jesus went and healed people.

There are several ways of looking at that. One is that all ancient societies had people in the role of healer, and magical powers were attributed to most of them. The Greeks were the first to attempt a pragmatic view of medicine under Hippocrates (and his theory of the four humors), and in the 2nd century the Greek Galenos ('Galen'), working with gladiators in Rome, put medicine on its modern course.

Second, it was expected that holy men would perform miracles of healing ─ you'll recall the stories in the Tanakh that Elijah and Elisha brought dead people back to life. So it would be odd for a purported biographer of Jesus not to put his subject on at least as good a footing. (Do you really think Matthew's story of the zombies (Matthew 27:52-3) ─ which no one else noticed. apparently ─ is historically accurate, or just narrative coloring?)

And of course the number of authenticated miracles still stands at zero.

If that’s all you read and not the rest of the Scriptures you could argue that. You’re missing His whole purpose of His mission as the Son of Man, The Lamb of God, Immanuel.

That could only be true if Jesus was a Jewish messiah. But first, Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh (despite the Christian custom right from the start of claiming otherwise), second he was unrecognizable as a messiah, not being a civil, military or religious leader of the Jews nor anointed by the Jewish priesthood (which, and third he never restored the Jews to their political independence ─ which is what the Tanakh says a messiah will do ─ but instead founded a sect that across two millennia has become the greatest single source of of routinely rapacious and often murderous antisemitism ever seen.

It’s the Bible’s and The Father’s claim

Quote me the words. And explain why assaulting businessmen going about their lawful business is a good idea when your argument is really with the Temple authorities.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Matthew's story of the zombies (Matthew 27:52-3) ─ which no one else noticed. apparently ─ is historically accurate, or just narrative coloring?)

You say zombies and no one else noticed, let’s hear what those who were there said.
“So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:54‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[ElishaElijah]

And of course the number of authenticated miracles still stands at zero.

All his miracles were authenticated just not by your sources apparently

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

“So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:54‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

And oddly... No such earthquake happened.

 

[ElishaElijah]

And oddly... No such earthquake happened.

It obviously did

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

One would think that other Gospels would mention it as such. As well as the dead rising during that event and appearing to people.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Quote me the words. And explain why assaulting businessmen going about their lawful business is a good idea when your argument is really with the Temple authorities.

It wasn’t a lawful business, lol. It wasn’t their house it’s God’s house and they turned it into a den of thieves.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Correction: it would have been the courtyard of the Temple, and there would have been a large source of commerce for Jerusalem by the selling of sacrificial animals for people who didn't have their own.

 

[blü 2]

You say zombies and no one else noticed, let’s hear what those who were there said.
“So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:54‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

No, that's still Matthew. The point is that no other NT author mentions it and ─ considering how truly extraordinary it would be if it were true ─ no other historical record mentions it either. I'm very confident it's not an accurate report about reality.

Do you think it really happened?

All his miracles were authenticated just not by your sources apparently.

No, not one of them has been authenticated. Authenticated is not the same as believed through faith. In the real world, magic doesn't happen ─ if it did you could show me some, and better still, become world famous and very rich.

It wasn’t a lawful business, lol.

Of course it was lawful. It was the usual practice of the Temple, and the money men were there to assist in the exchange of money of various kinds for livestock for sacrifice. It doesn't become unlawful just because Jesus or the author of the story didn't like it.

And as I keep saying, if Jesus had an argument, it was with the Temple authorities, not with the traders. If Jesus is too intemperate or too stupid to notice that, it puts him in the class of someone who tries to bash traffic cops because he doesn't like the traffic laws, no? Either way, plain as day his action was unjust and unlawful, and if he actually wanted to change the practice, entirely misconceived.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No, not one of them has been authenticated. Authenticated is not the same as believed through faith. In the real world, magic doesn't happen ─ if it did you could show me some, and better still, become world famous and very rich.

World famous and very rich? Wonder where that kind of thinking originates?

 

[ElishaElijah]

And as I keep saying,

And you’re opinion and view is still wrong no matter how many times you say it. It’s like saying the owner of the place doesn’t have the authority. They were hirelings.