Origin of the Bible (Branch Thread)

[Trailblazer]

Like Paul, the author of John is influenced by gnosticism. the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John, unlike the other three, each pre-existed in heaven with God and (regardless of Genesis) as demiurge created the material universe (because in gnosticism, God is boundlessly pure and remote spirit and would never sully [him]self with anything material). And that's why John's Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I am". Paul's Jesus could have said it too, but not the other three.

My belief about why Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am" is because Jesus pre-existed in heaven with God and that was before Abraham was born into this world.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

But pre-existing in the spiritual world with God does not make Jesus into God. The Christians are credited with that fine accomplishment, or so they believe.

As for the sense in which Jesus is one with God ─

John 17:20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.​

In other words, says John’s author, the oneness is of a kind available to all believers, not an equality with Yahweh.

Yes, that is what I believe Jesus is saying, but regarding other verses that Christians believe mean Jesus is God I have another interpretation:

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that Jesus and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings are identical with the Will of God Himself. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one and the same. Jesus also shares the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one and the same. I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God. The verse below says that God was manifest in the flesh; it does not say that God was incarnated in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Yes ─ let alone have their Jesuses say out loud, 'I am not God'.

That they do, too bad most Christians weren't listening and still aren't.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

So, you have two documents, pre-Nicea and post-Nicea?

In a way. Before the Council of Nicaea, there are a slew of documents (physical artifacts) ranging from letters to gospels to apocalypse revelations. After the Council of Nicaea is when we see the biblical canon emerge; the texts chosen by that council to stand as the "Holy Bible" and core scripture of the Christian church.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

What do you mean by that?

Quite plainly every belief that stems from the Bible, and every branching variation of the Bible and continuing text is a result of limited information and crafted theology by the Seven Ecumenical Councils (namely the Council of Nicaea). Even the Protestants are using chosen texts cultivated by the early Catholic Church. This is historical fact.

Someone told you a lie.

Sounds like it hits hard. No, firedragon, no one told me a lie. The historical evidence and documentation trail is there, plain as day, for anyone to see and know. Your denial of the factual purpose of the First Council of Nicaea is so much wailing into the void; it is not evidence to the contrary, and there cannot be evidence to the contrary any more than there can be evidence against the Nuremburg Trials.

 

[firedragon]

Quite plainly every belief that stems from the Bible, and every branching variation of the Bible and continuing text is a result of limited information and crafted theology by the Seven Ecumenical Councils (namely the Council of Nicaea). Even the Protestants are using chosen texts cultivated by the early Catholic Church. This is historical fact.

You mean the texts of all the branches were all constructed by the Catholic Church Are you saying they intentionally created types and families?

Sounds like it hits hard. No, firedragon, no one told me a lie. The historical evidence and documentation trail is there, plain as day, for anyone to see and know. Your denial of the factual purpose of the First Council of Nicaea is so much wailing into the void; it is not evidence to the contrary, and there cannot be evidence to the contrary any more than there can be evidence against the Nuremburg Trials.

Sorry brother.

Tell me. Which scholar or historical evidence shows that the council of Nicaea decided the Bible canon?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

You mean the texts of all the branches were all constructed by the Catholic Church

Precisely.

Sorry brother. YOU have been told a lie.

Then provide your evidence. I don't know you, and your word means nothing to fact.

 

[firedragon]

Precisely.


Then provide your evidence. I don't know you, and your word means nothing to fact.

Typically, you should provide the evidence since you claimed the Nicaean council decided the bible canon. This is a burden of proof fallacy.

Nevertheless, no problem. This is very simple, and absolutely unanimous, and I am actually surprised that in this day and age people are still talking about the council of Nicaea deciding the bible canon like davinci code the movie spoke of. Its fiction. Its false.

The council of Nicaea was to put an end to the dispute with Arius and his theological trajectory. I am not gonna go in detail into it, but you can read these books.

Lewis Ayres - Nicaea and Its Legacy_ An Approach to Fourth-Century Trinitarian Theology
Rowan Williams - Arius_ Heresy and Tradition
R. P. C. Hanson - Search for the Christian Doctrine of God

Read the following images.

 

[Marcion]

I find it very interesting to prune the New Testament back to the original gospel story and the original sayings that Jesus himself taught.
I end up with the first half of the gospel of Mark and a small selection of original Jesus sayings.
The rest of the New Testament was made up by Christians creating their syncretic (mythical) religion.

I'm fascinated by that original Jesus but not so much interested in the mythical side of the Christian religion.
There are so many religious myths in the world, they're a thing of the past.
But the original teachings of Jesus remain relevant even in modern times.

 

[ElishaElijah]

So, then -- what you believe depends, as you say, "on the version or translation."

And how do you determine which is the right version, or the correct translation?

No that’s not close to what I said or meant. The gospel message hasn’t changed at all. I received Jesus Christ because someone shared with me that I was separated from God because of my sin, that God loves me so much that He sent His Son to die on the Cross for my sin, was buried and rose from the dead. I didn’t know how I believed this but I did, that day I received Jesus Christ, my sins were forgiven. I knew it because God did something I couldn’t explain at the time except I was full of an inexpressible joy that overwhelmed me so much that I couldn’t jump high enough to get that joy out.
I was searching for God when He led me to this person, I said to this person that I needed to talk to him about something but I didn’t know what. He shared the message as I just described. I had no idea about any council, translation or anything other than the message that was shared. At that point I started reading the Bible. It made sense and the Holy Spirit is the person that gave me understanding.

 

[ElishaElijah]

What is the canon of Scripture? | GotQuestions.org
I agree with what is shared here

 

[PruePhillip]

In a way. Before the Council of Nicaea, there are a slew of documents (physical artifacts) ranging from letters to gospels to apocalypse revelations. After the Council of Nicaea is when we see the biblical canon emerge; the texts chosen by that council to stand as the "Holy Bible" and core scripture of the Christian church.

Council Nicea 325 AD
About 300 years after Jesus' crucifixion, attested to by seven authors.
The First Documents were not considered sacred because of their age,
but because of their authorship.
Luke wrote his Gospel and Acts before he was taken to Rome with Paul
ca 66 AD. Luke quoted from Matt and Mark's Gospel.
By the late century we see the rise of the Roman Catholic Church. But
this church in particular rose in an age where the 'cannon' of the Gospels
was not only written, but cannonised as well. It couldn't replace this, nor
did it want to - it just re-interpreted it and began adding practices to the
Gospels, such as Easter observances and holy days. Crucially the RCC
did not amend the sacred texts to justify this.

 

[ElishaElijah]

What do you make of the fact that each of the five versions of Jesus in the NT ─ Paul's, Mark's, Matthew's, Luke's and John's ─ each expressly denies that he's God?

I’d say read them again, even John 1;1-14 describe Jesus as the Word was God and became flesh.
If the truth is still hidden from you, God will have to open your eyes like He did for me and many others so you can see.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Nevertheless, no problem. This is very simple, and absolutely unanimous, and I am actually surprised that in this day and age people are still talking about the council of Nicaea deciding the bible canon like davinci code the movie spoke of. Its fiction. Its false.

Absolutely true brother, the council didn’t even have the Jewish believers present, if they did they wouldn’t have come up with Easter and all that but we would probably still have the feasts being celebrated instead.

 

[blü 2]

I’d say read them again, even John 1;1-14 describe Jesus as the Word was God and became flesh.
If the truth is still hidden from you, God will have to open your eyes like He did for me and many others so you can see.

I'm not sure that even God can make it plainer than the NT already does:

(Paul) Philippians 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(Paul) 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me”

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

John 14:28 ... If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

John 16:23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1 John 4:12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.​

and that's by no means all.

 

[ElishaElijah]

and that's by no means all.

A true statement because you left out all the verses that explain Jesus being God.
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:15-20‬ ‭ESV‬‬
You’re missing His whole mission

 

[Colt]

Taking this here, from the "sex before marriage" thread.


How you came to know and understand Jesus is understood, Elijah. The facts as conveyed prior to you is that the source of this "knowledge" was pruned and cultivated long before either of us were born, so that you would arrive at exactly that conclusion. Including altering Isaiah in translation so that Jesus' coming was "foretold".


Your understanding from that Bible comes directly in the form of the message that the Council of Nicaea wanted you to receive. But I know why you won't see that.

True, the Bible is what it is, not perfect, redacted and edited over time by Holy men, some more holy than others.

The original, pre-cross gospel of Jesus changed after Jesus left and was replaced by the Christian religion and the institutional church; all 35,000+ branches of it.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Typically, you should provide the evidence since you claimed the Nicaean council decided the bible canon.

Did you see the links in the first post, trailing back to a longer discussion? The issue here, between you and I, is that you came charging in with nothing more than "That's a lie! Someone lied to you!" And when asked to back this up... you shift the burden of proof. "It's your thread, you prove your claim!" and all that. If someone has made an error that you identify as an error, yet you will not show that error in evidence, that's what we call in the professional field "rude."

Now, to your "evidence". It does nothing of the sort to disprove what I posted as an error. In neither of those paragraph snippets does it identify which Council is being discussed, or really any deeper indications as to the matters therein. Many of these councils discussed several issues regarding the Church in one sitting, for example the Council of Chalcedon (10,451 HE) discussed the judgments of the Second Council of Ephesus (10,449 HE), allegations of offences by Bishop Dioscorus of Alexandria, yet further discussion on the relationship of Jesus' divinity, and other disputes concerning various bishops.

Moving onward.

I am actually surprised that in this day and age people are still talking about the council of Nicaea deciding the bible canon like davinci code the movie spoke of.

I have never seen The DaVinci Code, nor read the book. Thus it cannot influence my study from historical sources regarding the early church and the composition of the Bible. I will address this claim of yours here, but first I want to prune your pride:

If you track backward from the first post of this thread, and back to the "Why I'm Against Sex Before Marriage" thread (linked here as well for your convenience), you will find that for roughly two-to-three days I was discussing Trinitarianism (a matter discussed at length during the First Council of Nicaea) with no less than two people. This is important, as extended discussion often puts people in a psychological rut. You are correct, the First Council of Nicaea did not set or discuss the Biblical canon, however before you click your heels and dismiss the overall fact that the Bible was composed in such a fashion, the First Council of Nicaea did not discuss this because it was already set 155 years prior in the Muratorian Canon, dated at 10,170 HE. The Biblical Canon was solidified in 10,364 by the Council of Laodicea, who added the Book of Hebrews, the Epistle of James, the First Epistle of Peter, the Second Epistle of Peter, and removed the Apocalypse of Peter.

It is a common misconception that the Council of Nicaea discussed Biblical Canon not because of a very recent movie, but because of François-Marie Arouet, elsewise known as Voltaire. He popularized a myth of how the canon was chosen, a tale that is repeated in a history-interspersed-with-legend of the early church, the Synodicon Vetus.

It is an absolute fact that the biblical canon was cultivated and pruned from no less than 89 individual gospels, letters, revelations, and accounts into the 27 books of the New Testament Canon. The opening post will be edited to reflect this correction, but the Fact remains that the Early Church, through the Council of Laodicea, chose the books of the New Testament to frame and illustrate a given narrative that is often contradicted and called into question by the remaining 52 writings. Your objection is correct in the specific Council from which this fabrication occurred, but still false against the factual occurrence in Church History.

 

[firedragon]

Did you see the links in the first post, trailing back to a longer discussion? The issue here, between you and I, is that you came charging in with nothing more than "That's a lie! Someone lied to you!" And when asked to back this up... you shift the burden of proof. "It's your thread, you prove your claim!" and all that. If someone has made an error that you identify as an error, yet you will not show that error in evidence, that's what we call in the professional field "rude."

Now, to your "evidence". It does nothing of the sort to disprove what I posted as an error. In neither of those paragraph snippets does it identify which Council is being discussed, or really any deeper indications as to the matters therein. Many of these councils discussed several issues regarding the Church in one sitting, for example the Council of Chalcedon (10,451 HE) discussed the judgments of the Second Council of Ephesus (10,449 HE), allegations of offences by Bishop Dioscorus of Alexandria, yet further discussion on the relationship of Jesus' divinity, and other disputes concerning various bishops.

Moving onward.

I gave you books. Read them.

It is an absolute fact that the biblical canon was cultivated and pruned from no less than 89 individual gospels, letters, revelations, and accounts into the 27 books of the New Testament Canon. The opening post will be edited to reflect this correction, but the Fact remains that the Early Church, through the Council of Laodicea, chose the books of the New Testament to frame and illustrate a given narrative that is often contradicted and called into question by the remaining 52 writings. Your objection is correct in the specific Council from which this fabrication occurred, but still false against the factual occurrence in Church History.

Not at the council of Nicaea.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Not at the council of Nicaea.

Tell me you didn't read anything that I took considerable time to write out (including the very segment that you quoted), without telling me you didn't read anything that I took considerable time to write out. Very rude, dragon.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I'm not sure that even God can make it plainer than the NT already does:

What’s plain to see is that Jesus Christ isn’t the Father but the Son. That He was not only The Son of God but the Son of Man. That He is God and who became a man. What the Bible describes is the Godhead, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That Jesus Christ who was at the beginning and created everything became a man, died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose the 3rd day according to the Scriptures.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

So you're a polytheist, then. No shame there, but it's better to own that than try and go through all manner of mental gymnastics to arrive at 1+1+1=1