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Origin of Life.

Steve

Active Member
With what scientists now know about the complexity and scientific improbability/impossibility of a self replicating cell forming itself from non-living material via only natural means surely it is reasonable to conclude their must be an unnatural/supernatural intelligent cause.
We often correctly use this type of reasoning in regards to other forms of investigation yet why is it that it is instantly labeled invalid when applied to the issue of life origins? For instance, if the SETI project recieved a signal from space that with our current knowledge we knew could not be the result of a natural phenomenom we could justifiably conclude it had an intelligent source. The SETI project relies on this - that it is possible to recognise design or phenomenon that is the result of intelligence.
Abiogenesis is a theory that has been shown to be scientifically absurd, yet in many books it is portrayed as fact. To claim belife in such a theory dosnt require faith is absurd, it is something that must be accepted by faith as real science(observable, testable) argues against its possibility. Abiogenesis has never been observed, yet it is assumed or even stated as fact regardless of the scientific evidence standing against its possibility, it is belived not because of scientific evidence but because those beliving it dont like the alternative.

The following is taken from http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/ISD/baumgardner.asp

Let us first establish a reasonable upper limit on the number of molecules that could ever have been formed anywhere in the universe during its entire history. Taking 10 power of 80 as a generous estimate for the total number of atoms in the cosmos, 10 power of 12 for a generous upper bound for the average number of interatomic interactions per second per atom, and 10 power of 18 seconds (roughly 30 billion years) as an upper bound for the age of the universe, we get 10 power of 110 as a very generous upper limit on the total number of interatomic interactions which could have ever occurred during the long cosmic history the evolutionist imagines. Now if we make the extremely generous assumption that each interatomic interaction always produces a unique molecule, then we conclude that no more than 10 power of 110 unique molecules could have ever existed in the universe during its entire history.
Now let us contemplate what is involved in demanding that a purely random process find a minimal set of about 1,000 protein molecules needed for the most primitive form of life. To simplify the problem dramatically, suppose somehow we already have found 999 of the 1,000 different proteins required and we need only to search for that final magic sequence of amino acids which gives us that last special protein. Let us restrict our consideration to the specific set of 20 amino acids found in living systems and ignore the hundred or so that are not. Let us also ignore the fact that only those with left-handed symmetry appear in life proteins. Let us also ignore the incredibly unfavorable chemical reaction kinetics involved in forming long peptide chains in any sort of plausible nonliving chemical environment.

Let us merely focus on the task of obtaining a suitable sequence of amino acids that yields a 3-D protein structure with some minimal degree of essential functionality. Various theoretical and experimental evidence indicates that in some average sense about half of the amino acid sites must be specified exactly. For a relatively short protein consisting of a chain of 200 amino acids, the number of random trials needed for a reasonable likelihood of hitting a useful sequence is then in the order of 20 power of 100 (100 amino acid sites with 20 possible candidates at each site), or about 10 power of 130 trials. This is a hundred billion billion times the upper bound we computed for the total number of molecules ever to exist in the history of the cosmos!! No random process could ever hope to find even one such protein structure, much less the full set of roughly 1,000 needed in the simplest forms of life. It is therefore sheer irrationality for a person to believe random chemical interactions could ever identify a viable set of functional proteins out of the truly staggering number of candidate possibilities.

In the face of such stunningly unfavorable odds, how could any scientist with any sense of honesty appeal to chance interactions as the explanation for the complexity we observe in living systems? To do so, with conscious awareness of these numbers, in my opinion represents a serious breach of scientific integrity. This line of argument applies, of course, not only to the issue of biogenesis but also to the issue of how a new gene/protein might arise in any sort of macroevolution process.

One retired Los Alamos National Laboratory fellow, a chemist, wanted to quibble that this argument was flawed because I did not account for details of chemical reaction kinetics. My intention was deliberately to choose a reaction rate so gigantic (one million million reactions per atom per second on average) that all such considerations would become utterly irrelevant. How could a reasonable person trained in chemistry or physics imagine there could be a way to assemble polypeptides in the order of hundreds of amino acid units in length, to allow them to fold into their three-dimensional structures, and then to express their unique properties, all within a small fraction of one picosecond!? Prior metaphysical commitments forced the chemist in question to such irrationality.

Another scientist, a physicist at Sandia National Laboratories, asserted that I had misapplied the rules of probability in my analysis. If my example were correct, he suggested, it “would turn the scientific world upside-down.” I responded that the science community has been confronted with this basic argument in the past but has simply engaged in mass denial. Fred Hoyle, the eminent British cosmologist, published similar calculations two decades ago. Most scientists just put their hands over their ears and refused to listen.

In reality this analysis is so simple and direct it does not require any special intelligence, ingenuity, or advanced science education to understand or even originate. In my case, all I did was to estimate a generous upper bound on the maximum number of chemical reactions—of any kind—that could have ever occurred in the entire history of the cosmos and then compare this number with the number of trials needed to find a single life protein with a minimal level of functionality from among the possible candidates. I showed the latter number was orders and orders larger than the former. I assumed only that the likely candidates were equally so. My argument was just that plain. I did not misapply the laws of probability. I applied them as physicists normally do in their everyday work.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Steve said:
Abiogenesis is a theory that has been shown to be scientifically absurd, ...
Outstanding! Could you please cite the peer-reviewed science that prompted this consensus?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Steve;

You might care to see the following thread:
Religious Education / Debate / Religious Debates / Evolution Vs. Creation AnswersinGenesis.org
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but I suggest you have a look at the thread.

"Abiogenesis has never been observed, yet it is assumed or even stated as fact regardless of the scientific evidence standing against its possibility" - I would be interested to hear why you think that.:)
 

CMIYC

Member
Deut. 32.8 said:
Outstanding! Could you please cite the peer-reviewed science that prompted this consensus?
Absolute nonsense, can you actually prove anything or even point anybody in the direction that might support any of your criticism. I bet you cannot present anything more then theories. Which is unsubstantiated belief?
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
I'm with Deut here, I want to see the underlying math and source for the constants. Where is the actual data?
 

Steve

Active Member
Deut. 32.8 said:
Outstanding! Could you please cite the peer-reviewed science that prompted this consensus?
Duet something does not become scientific because it is peer-reviewed. Above is a scientific argument against the theory of abiogenesis, their are plennty more out there. Many scientists in the ID movement for example belive what they do primarily because of science. Also its not suprising that the majority of peer-reviewed journals etc are reluctant to publish this sort of article, afterall they are commited to only naturalistic explanations, evidence against their naturalistic beliefs arnt likely to be celebrated.
You are so skeptical in many of your posts how about being just as skeptical of theories such as abiogenesis? Or do you let it off easy because you would like it to be true?




michel said:
Steve;

You might care to see the following thread:
Religious Education / Debate / Religious Debates / Evolution Vs. Creation AnswersinGenesis.org
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but I suggest you have a look at the thread.
Hi michel
Ive seen that thread...

michel said:
"Abiogenesis has never been observed, yet it is assumed or even stated as fact regardless of the scientific evidence standing against its possibility" - I would be interested to hear why you think that.:)
My first reason would be that Abiogenesis has never been observed.
Another reason would be the scientific evidence argues against its possibility
(http://www.iscid.org/papers/Mullan_PrimitiveCell_112302.pdf,
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v12/i3/chirality.asp,
http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=49http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=49,
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v17/i2/chance.asp,
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/origin.asp).
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Point me at the peer-reviewed scientific work. I notice every site in your list is a religious porpiganda site.

If you can't manage to find one, you are still welcome to actually argue the case yourself. I'll be happy to argue my own.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Steve said:
Duet something does not become scientific because it is peer-reviewed.
On the contrary, science is method and that which cannot withstand peer-review has no right to the mantle of "scientific".
 

Steve

Active Member
JerryL said:
Point me at the peer-reviewed scientific work. I notice every site in your list is a religious porpiganda site.
So rather than actually consider the science in these articles you instead refuse because they were written by scientists who belive somthing you dont. As i said to duet "its not suprising that the majority of peer-reviewed journals etc are reluctant to publish this sort of article, afterall they are commited to only naturalistic explanations, evidence against their naturalistic beliefs arnt likely to be celebrated."
How many commited atheistic scientists would openly support such an article?
If you were really seeking the truth objectivly you would read the contents of those links i posted and either scientifically refute them or agree. Have you ever actually considered that maybe their is a God? And if their is that its not un-intellectual to belive it? You get one go at this life on earth, consider things carefully. Imagine one day you do actually stand befor God and your excuse for not beliving that he created life is that the theory of abiogenesis didnt have many peer-reviewed critics and although their were many qualified scientists who do not belive the theory of abiogenesis you still wouldnt belive because their articles wernt supported by the journals etc commited to only naturalistic explanations.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
So rather than actually consider the science in these articles you instead refuse because they were written by scientists who belive somthing you dont.
I'll happily consider any science you would like to poffer. I've read the generl creationist literature, and see no need to re-read it.

Since you have not bothered to actually make an argument, I will not bother with a retort. You may simply walk over to talkorigins (or google the information in the cites) and see why yours are wrong.

If you were really seeking the truth objectivly you would read the contents of those links i posted and either scientifically refute them or agree.
You make a claim and I'll refute or agree. You support your claim and I'll address your support. I have no desire to argue with a website.

Tell you what, here's my coutner claim: www.talkorigins.org. If you are really seeking the truth, you will read the contents and either scientifically refute or agree.

Have you ever actually considered that maybe their is a God? And if their is that its not un-intellectual to belive it? You get one go at this life on earth, consider things carefully. Imagine one day you do actually stand befor God and your excuse for not beliving that he created life is that the theory of abiogenesis didnt have many peer-reviewed critics and although their were many qualified scientists who do not belive the theory of abiogenesis you still wouldnt belive because their articles wernt supported by the journals etc commited to only naturalistic explanations.
Have you considered that reality is shaped by the whims of phase-shifted unicorns who cannot stand the gullible? That you will one day be judged for belief in something with no support what-so-ever and found worthy only to have your hair chewed on for all eternity? What will you say then?!?
 

Steve

Active Member
JerryL said:
I'll happily consider any science you would like to poffer. I've read the generl creationist literature, and see no need to re-read it.

Since you have not bothered to actually make an argument, I will not bother with a retort. You may simply walk over to talkorigins (or google the information in the cites) and see why yours are wrong.

You make a claim and I'll refute or agree. You support your claim and I'll address your support. I have no desire to argue with a website.
Ok heres an idea, read what i posted in my first post, consider the science in the first post of this thread and either refute it, agree or leave this thread. I did not post the whole website i posted part of an article written by a scientist who dosnt belive abiogenesis to be scientifically reasonable. If you disagree then you present me your case about why this scientists conclusions are wrong. Rather than hide behind "its not peer reviewed" how about actually addressing the science in it?
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
OK. What *you* said in your first post:

With what scientists now know about the complexity and scientific improbability/impossibility of a self replicating cell forming itself from non-living material via only natural means surely it is reasonable to conclude their must be an unnatural/supernatural intelligent cause.
An appeal to authority, and likely false. What exactly do scientists now know and how does it establish abiogensis as impossible?

We often correctly use this type of reasoning in regards to other forms of investigation yet why is it that it is instantly labeled invalid when applied to the issue of life origins? For instance, if the SETI project recieved a signal from space that with our current knowledge we knew could not be the result of a natural phenomenom we could justifiably conclude it had an intelligent source. The SETI project relies on this - that it is possible to recognise design or phenomenon that is the result of intelligence.
I see no relationship between SETI's method for identifying naturally occuring signils and the possability of life forming. You are too vague as to actually have an argument.

Abiogenesis is a theory that has been shown to be scientifically absurd, yet in many books it is portrayed as fact.
No, it's a scientific hypothesis. How is it shown absurd?

To claim belife in such a theory dosnt require faith is absurd, it is something that must be accepted by faith as real science(observable, testable) argues against its possibility.
How does this affect whether and how abiogenesis occured?

Abiogenesis has never been observed, yet it is assumed or even stated as fact regardless of the scientific evidence standing against its possibility, it is belived not because of scientific evidence but because those beliving it dont like the alternative.
abiogenesis should not be stated and conclusively established (it is a fact, whetehr a true or false one), but rather as a working hypothesis. I'm not sure how your rant over the presentation of abiogensis relates to teh science of it.

OK. Your original post has been responded to. You've offered no argument in it and there is no science in it, only rhetoric
 

Cynic

Well-Known Member
Steve said:
Let us also ignore the incredibly unfavorable chemical reaction kinetics involved in forming long peptide chains in any sort of plausible nonliving chemical environment.
Whoa whoa, wait a minute here. Peptides can easily be created if meteorites/astroids carrying amino acids collided with the earth. Amino acids were fired at the speed of 5,000 MPH to simulate a collision, and sure enough these amino acids binded into peptides because of the extreme pressure.

You should also know that amino acids have been found on a piece of meteorite.

Ignore what? The collision of astroids and meteorites?
Presumably in Accretion theory, earth during its development, went through bombardments of collisions for millions of years.

One retired Los Alamos National Laboratory fellow, a chemist, wanted to quibble that this argument was flawed because I did not account for details of chemical reaction kinetics. My intention was deliberately to choose a reaction rate so gigantic (one million million reactions per atom per second on average) that all such considerations would become utterly irrelevant.
What the heck?
Ya, this is what seems to be scientifically flawed.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
not to mention that they have been found all over the Univerce thanks to AstroChemistry and the wonders of mass spectomitry.

Life simply needs the right chain of amino acids such as in RNA... nonlife already produces this. we call them viruses... Non living things that produce RNA.

wa:do
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Aw heck! Painted wolf and cynic have gone all scientific on me, and I'm out of the running.....Why do you guys have to be so knowledgeable?:biglaugh:
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
well how about I point out that the use of 'statistics' to 'disprove' evolution is inharently falce if for no other reason than 'chaos theory' and other higher mathmatics have shown them to be poor predictors at best. You simply can not account for all factors in statistics. The more complex the system the less stable statistics become... Quantum mathmatics is far more useful for discribing complex systems. :cool:

wa:do
 

Cynic

Well-Known Member
michel said:
Aw heck! Painted wolf and cynic have gone all scientific on me, and I'm out of the running.....Why do you guys have to be so knowledgeable?:biglaugh:
Well it's a matter of where you spend your time really (I don't really consider myself very knowledgeable). I occasionally read scientific articles and watch videos on science, like NOVA, PBS, etc. It's something that I find enjoyable.

Speaking of which, NOVA's "Origins" is a good DVD to watch, which will show you the leading theories to how earth formed and how life evolved, and the evidense supporting the theories.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
painted wolf said:
well how about I point out that the use of 'statistics' to 'disprove' evolution is inharently falce if for no other reason than 'chaos theory' and other higher mathmatics have shown them to be poor predictors at best. You simply can not account for all factors in statistics. The more complex the system the less stable statistics become... Quantum mathmatics is far more useful for discribing complex systems. :cool:

wa:do
Well I wouldn't have thought there was any need to 'prove' evolution; the facts are 'there'.
Statistics never prove anything though - they are mostly manipulated to make a point.:(
 

Cynic

Well-Known Member
Cynic said:
Whoa whoa, wait a minute here. Peptides can easily be created if meteorites/astroids carrying amino acids collided with the earth. Amino acids were fired at the speed of 5,000 MPH to simulate a collision, and sure enough these amino acids binded into peptides because of the extreme pressure.

You should also know that amino acids have been found on a piece of meteorite.

Ignore what? The collision of astroids and meteorites?
Presumably in Accretion theory, earth during its development, went through bombardments of collisions for millions of years.
Heres an update,
In the 1950s, Stanley Miller assembled a contraption made out of flasks and tubes. He filled one flask with gases, which was thought to represent earth's primitive atmosphere, and then he connected it to another flask filled with water to represent the earth's oceans. Then he placed an electric charge to simulate electricity (lightning) in the earth's atmosphere. After a couple days, there was all this brown goo, which turned out to be amino acids.

Next, the abiogenesis theory had a long history. Aristotelian abiogenesis, or spontaneous generation was proved to be wrong. Modern abiogenesis, is still a theory that is considered scientifically, which is significantly different than that of Aristotelian abiogenesis.
 
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