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Featured Order versus Chaos

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by dfnj, Apr 30, 2018.

  1. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    People who have the deepest faith in science often claim there is a natural order to the way nature behaves? I've been wondering if seeing this order in nature is some kind of pareidolia (seeing images in clouds). If we held the belief the Universe is nothing but chaos and nature's primary behavior is disorder would be we see or experience the evidence in equal measure? Are the laws of physics our primary experience or is there an equal amount of violations to the laws of physics?

    I've heard many religious type people claim the natural order of nature, the way it can be represented with mathematics, and the idea of a clockwork Universe is evidence for the existence of God. Many people claim early scientists were all entrenched with religious beliefs as supporting evidence for their conjectures.

    It seems to me what makes the Universe so great and interesting is the chaos. The idea of the Universe being ordered is like playing an Atari VCS video game. The digital is very boring because it repeats itself often. I have never experience reality ever repeating itself. In the movie the Matrix they have déjà vu moment.



    I have never experience this in reality. Reality to me is analog, never repeats, just as disordered as it is ordered which is why reality is so interesting and fun to be in!

    The part about what makes music "compelling" is interesting.
     
    #1 dfnj, Apr 30, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
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  2. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    The natural world is ordely to us but in and of itself, its disordered. No god apart from us.

    Take cancer. No one, no satan, no demon, no one from the outside popped cancer inside us. Its a natural reaction and result of in many cases intergesting (in many ways to keep it simple) of, say, whats contained in cigarettes. Some cancer cells form on their own. Its the bodys natural reaction and action to toxics it takes in.

    Take seizures. Seizures are sparadic neuron impulses traveling through nerves making whereever the impulse and disruption lie, is what part of the brain thus body is affected. Seizures in and of themselves are natural. It goes out of place. Makes us twist and shake. Goes back on track like one of those white old fashion roller coasters.

    But its all natural.

    God is considered the "umph" behind natural events (but believers only attribute design to positive things not negative) and what drives things. Its a personification of energy. Many many other cultures outside abrahamic understand this cycle of nature and energy and how to use it for healing, prayer, and living; living IN god rather than for. Our body becomes embedded in the soul of order which is both order and disorder. What is both choas to nature and order to us.

    The abrahmic view is but a small percentage of people who seperate the natural world from religion. I dont even think muslims do that. In the quran it says we came from water. I always believed that. So, it really depends on where you get your sources from and interpretation.

    Order comes from humans. Miscarriages, accidental pregnancies dispite protection, cancer, and seizures are part of the natural world too. One and the same.
     
    #2 Unveiled Artist, Apr 30, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
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  3. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    We observe patterns, order. The sun comes up every day. The tides rise and fall. The seasons come and go. How could any sentient being not see a pattern in that?

    If you really think the only patterns and order in the physical world are due to human imagination, I suggest you ask yourself that question again, next time you are at 30,000ft in an airliner. :D

    As Dawkins once said, "Show me a cultural relativist at 30,000ft and I'll show you a hypocrite!"
     
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  4. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    I don't see the connection of what I'm saying to cultural relativism. Please elaborate what you mean or how I am being a hypocrite.

    (see the video I just added to OP on "What is Chaos")
     
  5. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Ah OK I was teasing a bit, I admit.

    But seriously, how can you contend that patterns such as those I mention could be imaginary?
     
  6. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    There not. It's just that there exists patterns that are not following the "norm". The question I am posing in the OP is are there are equal amount of patterns that do not follow the laws of physics. Airplanes crash all the time. We do not live in a perfect world. Are there an equal amount of imperfections if we just look for them without bias.
     
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  7. icehorse

    icehorse Well-Known Member
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    It strikes me that the universe is mostly in a state of chaos and that somehow it occasionally manages to create order. All life on this planet is an example of an amazing degree of order. It remains to be seen how frequently throughout the universe life is created out of order. But it's fun trying to figure it out!
     
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  8. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    Just something to consider in this vein - let's remember that the human perception of time and space is really very limited. Imagine for a moment if we had awareness on the geologic time scale. Would, then, the turning of the seasons on a single planet look so ordered?
     
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  9. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    As I've said many people claim the "order" we see in the Universe is evidence of God's existence. I think people have a bias to ignore how much chaos is actually occurring.
     
  10. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    No they don't. Have you any idea what the statistics are for airline safety? It is incredibly safe. To have an evens chance of being killed in an air crash you would need to take a flight every day for the next 10,000 years!

    That is a vivid testament to the ablity of science to understand nature and predict behaviour, through the detection study and measurement of patterns and order.

    Where you certainly have a point is about imperfections. Science makes models of the physical world, often by simplifying and setting aside complicating factors, if we feel they can be safely ignored for the sake of seeing the underlying pattern more clearly. Almost all our models are approximations, of one sort or another. But they work, giving us approximately correct predictions as to what should happen in given circumstances. Perhaps that is part of the human genius: the ability to see the wood in spite of the trees!
     
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  11. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this idea of lens of perception. How you look at the world is exactly how you experience. The problem is people have insanely STRONG convictions about certain lens of perception are absolute truth.
     
  12. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    It might be a bit of blur I agree, but then we would see other patterns - ones that human beings have only been able to detect in the last century. We would see the motion of the continents, and oceans opening and closing, due to plate tectonics. We would see animals and plants visibly evolving before out eyes. We would see the ice ages come and go. We would (with the right instruments) see the reversals of the magnetic poles. We would see the Alps and Himalayas rising up and the old mountains of Scotland and Wales being ground down by water and ice.
     
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  13. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    I don't disagree with anything you've said. I have just been saying in addition to what you are saying. There is no doubt when you mix certain chemicals together they go BOOM. But nature is dictating its behavior to science. Our understanding and the language we use does not dictate nature's behavior.

    I think my point is still valid. Without "controlled" conditions nature is chaotic.
     
  14. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Absolute truth? Only religions and logic deal in that commodity.
     
  15. Quintessence

    Quintessence Tale Weaver
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    I think that reinforces some of @dfnj 's point - that the patterns we see in terms of "natural order" are some kind of pareidolia. It's fairly well-known that pattern-thinking is inherent to how human cognition operates, yes? It would upscale and downscale if our awareness did.


    At any rate, interesting topic that's given me a few things to think about. Not sure what I think about it myself just yet.
     
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  16. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    You don't think the laws of physics are absolute truths? That is, are the same everywhere for all time.
     
  17. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

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    I like to think of the universe as just that "all into one". It being one thing, it can't be in conflict with itself. Our observations of it, however, are often chaotic.
     
  18. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate your beautiful sentiment about oneness. However, reality seems more like it is at odds with itself just as much as anything else. You could always ignore the observations that do not comply with your personal viewpoint.
     
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  19. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Those two statements do not make sense together. Of course nature dictates the behaviour we observe in science. Science is the study of nature. Only a fool would suggest the reverse: that it is we who dictate to nature how it should behave.

    But how on Earth do you get from that to asserting that nature is chaotic? When we speak of "controlled conditions" in an experiment, it is to reduce the number of variables, so that we can see one pattern unencumbered by all the other patterns that would otherwise overlay it.

    For example, we know that the rate of a chemical reaction between two gases is affected by pressure and by temperature. We know this because first we measure the rate of reaction at constant temperature, while varying the pressure of each component. That tells us what the effect of pressure is. Then we do some more experiments, this time holding the pressure constant but altering the temperature. Finally, we are to describe what effect both temperature and pressure have, which means we can see the 2 competing patterns working together: and what might previously have looked like chaos it turns out instead, voila, to be the resultant of these two patterns operating together.

    Something like:
    rate = Paᵐ.Pbⁿ. A.exp(-E/RT) , in which Pa and Pb are the pressure of the reactants, n and m are indices depending on the mechanics of the reaction, E is the Activation energy, R the gas constant and T the temperature. We then have a further proportionality factor A, which turns out to represent the probability that the molecules approach at the right angle to react.

    So we've learnt a lot by the end of all this. We have disentangled a lot of things that might make the system look chaotic to the uninitiated. But now we know it is governed by a pattern and if we know the values of the various factors in the equation we can predict the outcome. But it is still only an approximation.

    It is my view that a lot of the application of human intelligence consists in the ability to isolate one thing at a time and focus on it, then turn to the next. If we just mixed everything up together we would never learn at all.
     
  20. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

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    Far be it for me to interfere with the sacredness of learning. I see your point of view. I don't disagree with it. I am, however, saying something different that I don't think you will be able to appreciate with your current mindset (which is fine). Maybe what I am saying is pure BS. I'm have no way to prove my assertions are true. How do you test something like compliance to the laws of physics. I think my point of view is either you see it this way or you don't. If you don't, you are probably going to think people who see chaos are insane. Maybe you can just think about it. Please don't take what I am saying to you as an insult.
     
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