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Featured Order Does Not Require Intelligence

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Φᅠᅠ, Jul 31, 2021.

  1. Φᅠᅠ

    Φᅠᅠ Active Member

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    When asked for the reasons why people believe in God, Intelligent Design proponents say a major one is the fact that the universe has order. This order, according to them, clearly, undeniably and inescapably shows that an intelligent designer was responsible for fashioning the natural world, because order cannot come from disorder/randomness/non-intelligence. Therefore, a designer deity exists.

    Some objections to this argument were presented by C. M. Lorkowski in his book "A Survey of the Rational Rejection of Religious Belief" (pp. 81-83). I'll share just two objections, which seem (to me) sufficient to cast doubt on it:

    “First, it helps to consider whether there is a viable alternative to an ordered universe, presumably a universe with no order, that is, a completely chaotic universe. But while we can talk casually about such a notion, many have argued that the concept of a completely chaotic universe is incoherent. This is because any coherent picture requires kinds to serve as sortals, at minimum, the most basic kinds such as “matter” and “space.” But to have any such kind requires that there are rules, definitions, natures, essences, etc., something that makes it a member of that kind rather than something else and thereby allows us to conceptually distinguish that kind. This is true of even the broadest kinds such as “matter.” A truly chaotic universe would therefore have to be a universe without any kinds, but such a state is inconceivable. A universe could certainly have a different order, perhaps even significantly less order, but it is far from clear that it could have no order at all. The very existence of the universe seems to entail some order, at least enough to have rules governing basic kinds, but once we have an ordered universe, it is not clear that there is anything left to explain...

    A second consideration... is to wonder whether positing a deity actually adds anything to the explanation. Is a necessarily existing divine mind that requires no further explanation for its own ordered existence a better explanation than simply saying that the order of the universe (in the form of the laws) requires no further explanation? [In other words], when considering order in the form of the most basic laws of nature,... [is there a] reason to think that an undesigned designer provides any richer, more intellectually gratifying explanation than the naturalist account[?]"

    If you also have some objection to the Order Argument, you're more than welcome to share with us. :)
     
    #1 Φᅠᅠ, Jul 31, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2021
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  2. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Grēne Mann
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    I wouldn't say that I object to the idea of order, but I would say that order seems to be a human construct. Without humans to categorize and label things, those categories and labels wouldn't exist, it seems to me. Pattern recognition only seems to matter to beings who's brains are wired to recognize the shapes of clouds as dogs and sailboats, beings in the imaginary lines drawn between the stars in constellations, or even a face via the man in the moon.

    Without humans to give names and assign attributes to things, they would just be random, nameless aspects of nature without any deeper meaning or significance. We give them that meaning and significance.
     
    #2 SigurdReginson, Jul 31, 2021
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  3. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Silent Generation - so don't expect much
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    I think it might be a bit presumptive to see order in the universe based on our knowledge regarding one planet and the existence of one relatively intelligent life form out of the billions of planets that we know must exist, yet have no accurate information regarding such, or us having any knowledge as to any other advanced intelligent life. If one was to vote order or disorder, I suspect disorder might win when the majority of existence doesn't seem to favour life let alone intelligent life. Such a wasteful God. :oops:
     
  4. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with that. It confirms we have order, but I don’t think it explains how order could come without God.
     
  5. Φᅠᅠ

    Φᅠᅠ Active Member

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    Wrong. C. M. Lorkowski argued the very existence of a physical substance necessarily entails an ordered universe (for the reasons he outlined above). A totally chaotic universe is impossible. Therefore, the explanation of its order lies in its necessity. :)
     
    #5 Φᅠᅠ, Aug 1, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2021
  6. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Active Member

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    Hello.. SigurdReginson good to meet you..
    You said.. Pattern recognition only seems to matter to beings who's brains are wired to recognize the shapes..

    I reply.. But it is more then patterns(order) that we must consider we must consider "Random Chance" also!
    How about water being the ONLY liquid that gets lighter when it freezes! Otherwise there would be no life on earth!
    Or the earth being the exact distance from the sun or that we have one moon the right distance from earth to protect us and also stopping "Earth Wobble" and giving us tides a Moon that always turns it's face towards earth etc
    The earth being on a tilt to give us seasons.
    Or the Antarctic shaped as a propeller to give the oceans currents and motion!
    Or the dinosaurs being wiped out to give man a more friendly place to live.
    Or the earth on the end of a arm in the "Milky Way" giving man a clear view of the unaverse!
    Or the Human eye (for example) so very complex to have it come about by chance!? I think not!
    etc
    etc

    Not just "Order" it we also must includes "Random chance" of things falling into place just right and at the right time, this also being a impossibility and must be included in the debate!
     
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  7. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Grēne Mann
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    Random chance or no, we are adding extra meaning to things. Hate to break it to you, but that's just what we do as humans.

    As for your thoughts on water, that's what you think. How do we know that no other liquid would work? There are other organisms that can exist in other liquids than water. Even then, your attribute is an attribute given by you (a human being) to describe natural phenomenon.

    And? If the world didn't have seasons then it would be a world without seasons. If the earth wobbled, then it would be an earth that wobbled. If there were no tides, then life would evolve without tides as a factor to shape their evolution. Again, the things you mention are also just attributes given by human beings. At worst, life wouldn't exist here. Maybe life would have evolved differently. Just because life evolved the way it has doesn't mean that this is somehow the best way life could have evolved (whatever that means); it's just one way life evolved.

    Also, the existence of entropy and our eventual plunge into heat death, orbital drift, plus the eventual death of our sun makes me think things are "put together" a little less than perfect.

    Look at the shape of this thing; it's totally random! You are definitely making this into something bigger than it actually is... It's a random blob. One has to look real hard to see a "propeller." This is just like humans to look at something and piece together a thing that just isn't there.

    [​IMG]

    Ok, but we had sabertooth tigers, terror birds, hippos, lions, snakes, sharks, bears, and various other animals that still preyed upon us. We were not at the top of the food chain until the technology we created put us there. Dinosaurs or no, life was always harsh and unforgiving. This doesn't mean anything.

    How is this not just chance?... Why is this significant or important? Do anyone but some humans care about this?

    Biologists seem to disagree, as they think it's a product of evolution. There are eyes that diverge in complexity from light sensing cells all the way to complex eyes that are way more developed than the human eye. If human eyes were so perfectly made, they wouldn't get worse with age, with use or because of diet I'd think. We also wouldn't have the physiological blind spot that is inherent in all vertebrates.

    Blind spot (vision) - Wikipedia

    Our eyes are actually very flawed, it seems, when we actually compare them to other creatures.

    Also, why do you keep bringing up chance? I'm talking about the extra meaning humans extrapolate onto things that just wouldn't be there without humans to give them that meaning.

    Everything you've described are attributes given by human beings...

    It's easy to look at things billions of years after the fact and think, "Wow! Look how perfectly things fit together!" This is after eons of time had worn away many of the rough edges and things have become refined to the point they are now. Ultimately, you are still just piecing together unrelated things, because nothing you mentioned actually goes together in a cohesive way. They are random aspects of reality that don't really go together and tell a cohesive story. They are just "things that happen."

    Things that happen aren't proof that things were designed. Even the bible eludes that god isn't behind everything that happens in nature in 1 Kings 19:11-13.

    11 The Lord said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the Lord, for the Lord is about to pass by.”

    Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. 12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper. 13 When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.

    Then a voice said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?”


    I think this gives way more credence to OEC than YEC, personally - especially if one utilizes Occam's Razor, IMO.

    As for chance, I'm not really interested.
     
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  8. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    And then they go on and deny the natural order.

    An orderly universe is one where the laws of nature are the same anywhere, any time. An intervening deity (in which you have to believe to be a theist, by definition) is an exception to the order, i.e. it can and does suspend the laws of nature to perform "miracles".
    It is possible to believe in a deist god and in order at the same time, but once a theist god enters the picture, any order is gone.
     
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  9. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Humans tried to gain be an order to the universe.

    Theism I want to build a machine to control. Hence first I must theory order as I control by an order the machine.

    Creation of course was by chaos.

    So in time he equals by ordered cause some science answers. Created in order himself. Scientist. A man.

    Science. NASA.
    A crime A science origin AmericA.

    Alpha to Alpha.

    Science owned historic status.

    NASA says SATAN origin God theism gone. Science conditions.

    Now a lie N is the topic of God.

    Proof of his man self deception is inherited.

    He uses science to infer status human body. He uses science as status researched earth products

    Yet he invented forced destruction by order. So he can review his equals answer.

    Medical science says I understand all body problems.

    Yet science never invented human bio presence.

    So it struggles to infer how to heal by its sciences.

    Proof order is not realistic. In research you inferred order.

    Mass the natural body is chaotic and ever changing by reactive circumstance. Was the teaching natural sciences.

    A smart man he said in theory a secret agent was to know chaos inferred evil. A psyche theme storytelling.
     
  10. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Humans deistic God was our human father spiritual life with mother. Unconditional love for human babies as his owned children with mother.

    Recorded by God as it's owned O earth heavens. Humans conscious deistic God.

    The deity science God was planet earths various masses. Lied to us about earth conversions into heavens gases. As heavens deity was womb space not God earth.

    What lying means
     
  11. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I think I understood that. My point was to say, if chaotic universe is impossible, then also universe without God is also impossible, unless maybe if you could show how order comes without intelligent cause.
     
  12. Φᅠᅠ

    Φᅠᅠ Active Member

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    For something (in this case, absolute chaos) to be metaphysically impossible, it can't obtain in any possible world. But if absolute chaos doesn't obtain in any possible world, then order must obtain in a possible world where God doesn't exist to make it that way. But if that's the case, then that possible world could be our world, viz., the actual world. Therefore, order doesn't require intelligence since a chaotic world wouldn't obtain even if God didn't exist to actualize an 'ordered' possible world. Or conversely, a possible world with order would obtain even in the absence of intelligence to actualize it. Ergo, order doesn't require intelligence; it is required by metaphysical necessity.:)
     
  13. lukethethird

    lukethethird Well-Known Member

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    Order Does Not Require Intelligence
    True, and a good thing too because the intelligence I know would screw things up.
     
  14. lukethethird

    lukethethird Well-Known Member

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    In the first moments as the universe began to expand it was a completely chaotic universe. It was a mass of colliding particles. More order came about as it expanded and cooled. Order in the form of protons, electrons, eventually perfectly spherical stars, later symmetrical spiraling galaxies. Gravity causes masses of particles to come together and form spheres such as planets and suns and solar systems. Gravity alone explains more than bringing invisible gods and their invisible guiding hands into the equation.
     
    #14 lukethethird, Aug 3, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2021
  15. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    Nope.
    All the while disorder (i.e. entropy) increases.
    If there was a god and it gave order to the universe, it was at the moment of the first Planck time unit. After that, the universe took its course, no further intervention needed nor ever detected.
     
  16. PearlSeeker

    PearlSeeker Well-Known Member

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    Designer God of the gaps is easy to refute. Aquina's fifth way deals with order differently.
     
  17. Φᅠᅠ

    Φᅠᅠ Active Member

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    Hmm. So, are you convinced Aquinas made a compelling case?
     
  18. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe the idea that one can't imagine a chaotic universe does not prove that it couldn't exist. The thing is that an intelligent God would have no reason to create a chaotic universe.

    I believe the problem is that there is no reason for an ordered universe without an intelligent creator. Can you think of one?
     
  19. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe God would still know it was ordered.
     
  20. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe we have to go by what we know unless you wish to ask God about the rest. I would be happy to answer.
     
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