Opposition to Saudi Arabia's male guardianship system

[lewisnotmiller]

Because the two are synonymous.

Wow. Okay then. Way to discount much of the first world.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Your opinion is duly noted. But we in the western world devalue women everyday. We devalue the poor, the sick, the mentally distressed. We devalue people of color. We're no better than the countries who has an Islamic system who we self-righteously proclaim how their society is backwards. Sure, we are progressing, but me in the 36 years I have existed on this earth and in the United States I have yet to feel like a complete human being in these lands. That says a lot about my value here.

This isn't to suggest the US is perfect, or even subjectively 'good'.
It seems a strange disease of the modern left to basically say nothing can be criticized since 'we're not perfect'.
That strikes me as a dangerous equivocation.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

But we in the western world devalue women everyday. We devalue the poor, the sick, the mentally distressed. We devalue people of color. We're no better than the countries who has an Islamic system who we self-righteously proclaim how their society is backwards. Sure, we are progressing, but me in the 36 years I have existed on this earth and in the United States I have yet to feel like a complete human being in these lands.

Again, don't confuse the USA with "the West". Most European states are not run by people like the US Republicans. We don't oppress women. We have care for the sick and poor. We don't execute people — 10% of people executed in the USA turn out to have been innocent, and I hate to think what the percentage in the KSA is!

PS You might get more respect if you were more honest. Be open about your religion, for example.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

And yet, the sad truth remains: the "liberal democracies" of the world and the product primarily of humanist thinkers, and only exist after fighting off religious objection tooth and nail. Churches have always, throughout human history, tried to stand in the way of human social development towards more personal liberty.

Extremist views within religions have done that, not the faith itself. Remember it is also religion that has given us many benefits we utilize today.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Wow. Okay then. Way to discount much of the first world.

Isn't the North American continent not considered "western" via ancient Greek political ideology as a proxy? Isn't there something written in the United States where it says "all men are created equal?" Wasn't this written in 1776 by Thomas Jefferson, a man, who while writing that all men are created equal owned thousands of slaves at the same time? Western civilization is better or people within the west have the audacity to question the morality of others in different countries? I call the west hypocritical. Alas, and I say this again I still live in a western society where I have not felt completely human nor do I feel completely American. Until I exist in a society where I am addressed as a human and not based on my external appearance I will continue to call B.S. to this so-called democracy. We in the states deal with institutional racism and unfair sentencing in the judicial system yet we have the audacity to talk about how women are treated? Yet we continue to devalue our women by putting them on poster boards or shaming them for gaining too much weight! How dare you try to come at me for criticizing the obvious hypocrisy....

Of course I don't say this in an argumentative tone.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Again, don't confuse the USA with "the West".

Well if we aren't a part of the west what are we? Allow me to quote a famous racist Steve King:

"In response, Mr. King said: “This whole ‘old white people’ business does get a little tired, Charlie. I’d ask you to go back through history and figure out where are these contributions that have been made by these other categories of people that you are talking about? Where did any other subgroup of people contribute more to civilization?

“Than white people?” Mr. Hayes asked.

Mr. King responded: “Than Western civilization itself that’s rooted in Western Europe, Eastern Europe and the United States of America, and every place where the footprint of Christianity settled the world. That’s all of Western civilization.”

Source:What, Congressman Steve King Asks, Have Nonwhites Done for Civilization?

If the United States isn't considered a part of "western civilization" then what are we? we tout having western ideals and associate ourselves as a progressive society because we have a democratic process, something so-called western civilizations place as the foundation of our society so if the United States cannot be conflated as being a western civilization then what is it then? Are we proto-western? What are we?

Most European states are not run by people like the US Republicans.

When referring to "western civilization" I'm referring to socio-political ideals not political parties. What makes the western are the ideals, the political parties are the result of the schisms of what those ideals ought to mean when we exercise democracy.

We don't oppress women.

You're so full of it. Truly if people in western society didn't oppress women there would be no need for women's rights or advocates for women's rights in European countries. I'm not even going to list the many neo-Nazi and racist far right groups that have plagued Europe.

We don't execute people — 10% of people executed in the USA turn out to have been innocent, and I hate to think what the percentage in the KSA is!

Who is we? Where do you reside? Europe? Oh please tell me you reside in Europe so I can shut you up on facts.

PS You might get more respect if you were more honest. Be open about your religion, for example.

I personally don't care if you or anyone else here respects me. this website contributes nothing to my personal life except by me learning and getting to know people. Outside that nobody here pays my bills, signs my paychecks, or benefit me physically. with that being said I owe you nothing of my background. If you're too ignorant to not understand that many times I have said I have no religion and that doesn't compute through your skull I cannot help you.

Before you get on that Islam stuff I've already mentioned to several other members with comprehension issues (like yourself) I'm not Muslim. I like to drink alcohol date great looking women, get drunk and have pre-marital sex so I think that takes me out of the religious type. Besides I have my agnostic moments about God and til this day have my reasons to be unsure about a great many things in this life. One thing is for sure I believe in one God, angels, demons (or evil entities), enlightened people (historical prophets that have existed).

Now that I have wasted time explaining myself I will retire.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Extremist views within religions have done that, not the faith itself. Remember it is also religion that has given us many benefits we utilize today.

I have to disagree most strongly with both of those statements. History, and experience right up to today, seem to say otherwise. Now, it is true that Lord Acton, the 19th Catholic historian, saw liberty as a gift of Christianity, but A.C. Grayling, in his book Towards the Light, tears that idea to shreds. Yes, there was a brief time in Christianity of tolerance, but medieval Christianity set about vigorously rooting our heresy. Who can forget Torquemada and Inquisition -- both sponsored by the Church -- and the torture and murder of thousands of Jews, Muslims and Christians?

Martin Luther, perhaps, tried to give people enough space to discuss the fundamentals of faith, until Zwingli and Calvin throttled that, and crushed all opposition. Calvin, in particular, was an enthusiastic supporter of the death penalty for people who had differing beliefs (called "heretics"). And don't try to tell me that other religions, in particular Islam, don't likewise threaten heretics with grievous harm and death. And yet, what is liberty but the freedom to think, believe and worship (or not) as you see fit? Religion has never been a supporter of that. (With the possible exception of Quakers -- and, full disclosure -- all of my high schooling was at a private boarding school run by Quakers, and of who I am quite fond.) One might suppose that the religions without deities would be more tolerant, but I point to you the Buddhist treatment of the Muslim Rohingya of Myanmar.

I'm not going to talk go on at enormous length, but let me just point out a few modern examples:

Tell me about "religion's" long-time effort to prevent a person like me -- a homosexual man -- from living my life as I see fit.

Religious believers, in my province of Ontario in Canada, have belligerently rebelled against upgrading sex education in schools, to reflect the realities of the modern world, including the internet, social media, and tolerance of different sexual orientations. They want none of it. They even object to school children learning the proper names of sexual organs. No problems with "arms," legs," fingers," "torso" or "head," but "penis" or "vagina" are completely anathema. When kids learn to be ashamed of their natural sexual curiosity, the are at greater risk of being to ashamed to talk about predators who might have access to them. (See "Catholic Priests and sexual assault on children.")

No, it has my experience, over my 70 years, that the most liberating acts of governments, in the west, at least, have largely been over the objections of religious institutions.

 

[Baladas]

I am very happy that this woman was able to escape her family and that terrible regime. I wish her all the best in building a free life for herself.

This isn't to suggest the US is perfect, or even subjectively 'good'.
It seems a strange disease of the modern left to basically say nothing can be criticized since 'we're not perfect'.
That strikes me as a dangerous equivocation.

That's alarming. Could you humor me with a couple of examples? I'm not discounting it at all. As a lefty, I am genuinely unnerved by that idea.

I have a lot of critique for the States, and the West in general, but it is FAR better to live here than somewhere like Saudi Arabia.
They are run by a horrendously backward, oppressive regime that I would frankly love to see overthrown.

 

[SomeRandom]

That's fine and I don't take issue with anything this young lady did nor any women who feel they live in an unjust society. I just don't believe in judging a society because I live different than them. for every woman that dislikes life in Saudi Arabia there are others who are content with it so am I to assume they are in distress as well?

Fair enough.

The problem with the west is we are always trying to tell the world how to live. Who are we to tell the world which way is the best way to live? it is because of the west that many cultures were robbed and people have been displaced. The United States will not go against Saudi Arabia because they have what we want and that is oil. Apparently in the west, we value currency than human life. These are ideals attached to western life because freedom is a guise, a tool to usurp any potential rival governments if they choose to go against the "leader of the free world." As much as I'd like to agree, I have to ask what has the west done as of late to be the beacon of hope to others besides tell others that are not like us they're wrong and we're right? We still have homeless people in the United States, Donald Trump cares more about the wall than he do the average American citizen, we have homeless people sitting in the cold rain without hope while we sit here and focus on one girl on social media. The West does enough meddling in the affairs of others. I am ultimately glad she has found refuge but her story bares no relevance to the many people I see day to day as patients struggling with finding a home and kicking drugs, excuse me if I think we need to place our focus elsewhere.

Look I know the West likes to pontificate on other regions. I get that it comes across as a sort of "white savour" complex or egotistical.
But like I said, I have many issue with the West. I never said we don't live in glass houses.
But that shouldn't preclude us from having an opinion of others. This is all just talk at the end of the day, I doubt anyone here can truly change the world, as it were. So it's more like an intellectual excercise.
I just think that if we are serious about calling out abuse, we shouldn't be afraid to do so just because we might be perceived as racist or hypocrites. Call abuse abuse. If only to give us practice when it comes to our system.

These young ladies do seem to predominately flee to our neck of the woods, despite the rest of the world as their potential options.
Sure that could be for political reasons as well, I just don't know if I can say that we are "just as bad" for lack of a better phrase. We have different flaws.

 

[SomeRandom]

It's tip-toe tactics are just part of the game. I agree that skepticism is warranted. KSA just has a massive ego due to it's system of government so any criticism becomes personal.



Taking a low risk move is nothing special. Trump could have given her asylum just as easily. You are conflating low risk optics with something of substance which furthers my point.



Given the place in question one can not avoid the politics involved. After all it is a state enforced system beyond merely cultural garbage.

What is there to discuss that has not already become a beaten horse? KSA is a horrible country /check. It has backwards ideas /check. Political pressure is rarely applied /check. She is in a far far far far x100 better country now /check

Hmm you know I actually agree with you.

 

[danieldemol]

So what is your intent in all of this? To show how this society is bad? To show Islam is bad?

No, as a liberal I don't require people to change their religions, just outdated laws. The intent is to get a harmful law removed.

We still have issues with race, greed, homophobia but none of you Baha'is talk about that.

The one-ness of humanity is a central tenet of the Baha''i faith and if you haven't heard Baha'is talk about race issues and greed you haven't been listening to us. As for homophobia I myself have routinely argued against it, if you haven't noticed it is because you haven't been listening to me.

What if I met a Pakistan man who had a beautiful daughter but he wouldn't allow me to because I'm black should I blame his society for fostering the idea? Should I blame his religion?

I'm not blaming religion here, and as far as whether you should blame his society for fostering the idea, that depends on to what extent if any his society helped in fostering the idea.

Point is we shouldn't throw stones at glass houses because I'm sure the Baha'i community is no better.

If your suggesting the Baha'i community which has women as it's national elected representatives and does not put gays to death is no better than Saudi Arabia I'm suggesting you are wrong on both accounts.

This is why in another thread I participated in I said I choose to not critique orthodox communities like the Sunni, or Wahabbi, because it is merely beating a dead horse. You guys further create gaps. Like we know women are not valued equally in those lands, so what? You all are preaching to the choir. Why do we keep talking about this as if people don't know?

Can you imagine how unproductive it would be if I came on your threads about race issues and said something as stupid as "We know blacks are not valued equally in those lands, so what? You all are preaching to the choir. Why do we keep talking about this as if people don't know?"

Of course people can and should hear about these injustices until they are changed into justice. Even then we should not forget the mistakes of history so we don't repeat them.

I critique my fellow Baha'is when they are too fundamentalist, if Orthodox Muslims like the Wahhabis have their faults I can only think of peer pressure as being the reason you don't critique your own brethren

 

[SomeRandom]

Because the two are synonymous.

Umm excuse me, but the rest of the West would like a word.
The West, when refered to in the context of the Western World, includes countries like Australasia, at least some European countries, The Americas and sometimes Latin America (though that is sometimes disptuted by academics.)
It's also sometimes used as a colloquialism in some migrant communities to refer to overtly liberal values. Sometimes in a derogatory manner (betrayal to the "old world traditions") or in a positive manner, depending on the context.
America is not the centre of the World. Even the Western world.
The rest of the West may be your allies, but we're not overly keen to be synonymous with America. We have our own problems with you.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Tell me about "religion's" long-time effort to prevent a person like me -- a homosexual man -- from living my life as I see fit.

I appreciate the historical introduction leading up to the crux of your viewpoint concerning this matter. with regards to the quoted above, I totally understand your criticism and you're right. there have been people who dogmatically have use doctrine to enslave as well as antagonize people they see as the outlier of their community. Unfortunately homophobia of this kind is a symptom of the regressive dogmatic mindset many early religionists have.

Religious believers, in my province of Ontario in Canada, have belligerently rebelled against upgrading sex education in schools, to reflect the realities of the modern world, including the internet, social media, and tolerance of different sexual orientations. They want none of it. They even object to school children learning the proper names of sexual organs. No problems with "arms," legs," fingers," "torso" or "head," but "penis" or "vagina" are completely anathema. When kids learn to be ashamed of their natural sexual curiosity, the are at greater risk of being to ashamed to talk about predators who might have access to them. (See "Catholic Priests and sexual assault on children.")

No, it has my experience, over my 70 years, that the most liberating acts of governments, in the west, at least, have largely been over the objections of religious institutions.

Sounds like you live in a regressive society that is very dogmatic, so I don't blame you in your views concerning religion. I think it would be hard to have a more "friendly" view of religion, but I must caution you religion is not synonymous to the Abrahamic faith. There are other faiths out there but yes the ones that have been most historically influential unfortunately there members have not been the best examples of liberty and justice. I always believe that whatever sins religionists believe one has that they believe has transgressed doctrinal law is between that person and God. Unfortunately many so-called believers feel compelled that it is their duty to enforce God's law as they see fit.

The problem with enforcing so-called God's law is that the enforcement is always from the perspective of the one enforcing it. Just as many of the early European settlers of the Americas justify slavery using Biblical examples so to people of doctrinal traditional use the same logic. Unfortunately, it took the blood of many people and the tireless fight for civil rights to change these laws and the greater societal viewpoint that being gay or being of a different pigmentation is not wrong, and that we are born free. But in the world we live in changing one's mind especially when dogma is involved is the hardest thing because many people are comfortable with viewpoints they have lived with all their life.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Fair enough.Look I know the West likes to pontificate on other regions. I get that it comes across as a sort of "white savour" complex or egotistical.
But like I said, I have many issue with the West. I never said we don't live in glass houses.
But that shouldn't preclude us from having an opinion of others. This is all just talk at the end of the day, I doubt anyone here can truly change the world, as it were. So it's more like an intellectual excercise.
I just think that if we are serious about calling out abuse, we shouldn't be afraid to do so just because we might be perceived as racist or hypocrites. Call abuse abuse. If only to give us practice when it comes to our system.

These young ladies do seem to predominately flee to our neck of the woods, despite the rest of the world as their potential options.
Sure that could be for political reasons as well, I just don't know if I can say that we are "just as bad" for lack of a better phrase. We have different flaws.

Ok. So we call these people out and we say they're wrong in their abusive system and let's say (which we do) encourage these ladies to flee as you've implied, then what? I believe in calling out injustice wherever it is but when we are talking about a society and how it treats its members I'm still of the position that our s**** needs to be together before we comment how other people live. Not every woman is abused in Saudi Arabia. I'm still of the academic opinion that westerners like to tell others how to live using a more Eurocentric model as opposed to what is right and wrong. For example, shortly after 9-11 many women's groups took in interest in Afghan culture, something that wasn't happening before.

Now all of a sudden women's groups have an issue with Burkas and talking about Hijab and oppression and this and that and talking about how this is misogyny and what not. Like, who are we to talk about misogyny where I don't have to go very far and see magazines where women are bent over showing t**s and a***. I'm just saying don't lecture the world about abuse when there is abuse happening at home. Don't lecture the world about abuse when we still have institutional racism and injustice where the color of a person's skin gets them more time for drug charges than someone that does not have "melanated skin." That is my position and I'm sticking with it.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

We have our own problems with you.

True, but according to history "we are leaders of the free world." We're the world police I thought you knew? We are the greatest country in the history of the planet. Isn't that the rhetoric our leaders have been feeding this world? Now, of course I don't believe none of that B.S. I just wrote, but you get the idea when I say the West is synonymous with the U.S., but you're absolutely correct the world has issues with us indeed.

 

[SomeRandom]

Ok. So we call these people out and we say they're wrong in their abusive system and let's say (which we do) encourage these ladies to flee as you've implied, then what? I believe in calling out injustice wherever it is but when we are talking about a society and how it treats its members I'm still of the position that our s**** needs to be together before we comment how other people live. Not every woman is abused in Saudi Arabia. I'm still of the academic opinion that westerners like to tell others how to live using a more Eurocentric model as opposed to what is right and wrong. For example, shortly after 9-11 many women's groups took in interest in Afghan culture, something that wasn't happening before.

Now all of a sudden women's groups have an issue with Burkas and talking about Hijab and oppression and this and that and talking about how this is misogyny and what not. Like, who are we to talk about misogyny where I don't have to go very far and see magazines where women are bent over showing t**s and a***. I'm just saying don't lecture the world about abuse when there is abuse happening at home. Don't lecture the world about abuse when we still have institutional racism and injustice where the color of a person's skin gets them more time for drug charges than someone that does not have "melanated skin." That is my position and I'm sticking with it.

Would we ever reach the point of near perfection?
By the time we wait until our society turns into a near utopian vision even Huxley would be proud of, who knows how many women or men might have suffered in the meantime, without at least being acknowledged by anyone.
A drunk can still accurately criticise another drunk.
I won't front and say I think I know the answers. Or how to solve this situation.
But I will be brave enough to outright state that I would much rather live in the modern West, warts and all, compared to the Middle East or even the homelands of my own family. At least I can go to the police. Who can these women turn to if they don't have any legal recourse?
Hell even in Fiji, where my family are literally afraid of the police due to their more "engaged" interrogation methods, these particular women would have been safer.
So I will stand behind the statement that we are better. Not perfect, not some paragon to be held up or idolised. But better nonetheless. And I think that may depress me even more.

 

[SomeRandom]

True, but according to history "we are leaders of the free world." We're the world police I thought you knew? We are the greatest country in the history of the planet. Isn't that the rhetoric our leaders have been feeding this world? Now, of course I don't believe none of that B.S. I just wrote, but you get the idea when I say the West is synonymous with the U.S., but you're absolutely correct the world has issues with us indeed.

Whoah. The trailer for Team America World Police just flashed before my eyes when reading that.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Whoah. The trailer for Team America World Police just flashed before my eyes when reading that.

 

[Shia Islam]

“An 18-year-old Saudi woman's flight from her allegedly abusive family has rallied opposition to the kingdom's male guardianship system - with some activists predicting her story could inspire a "revolution" for women in the Muslim country.”

Read more here
'Rahaf al-Qunun is going to start a revolution': Teen's plight highlights Saudi male guardianship

Fist I have to say that not everything in Saudis Arabia has something to do with Islam, or even with Wahhabism, but rather many things are related to the Bedouin culture there..


Then, the Muslim world in general living at an era where it has abandoned much of its Islamic values and where sectarian discord become rampant and the Muslim countries became under the dominance of its enemies..


Then, as this age where the west has the material dominant in the world, educated people in the west should not be fooled by all of the propaganda targeting the Muslim countries..


We Muslims don't share many of the values of the west nor they share many of our values..

Many things that you see right we see wrong, and many things that you see right we see wrong..

So don't look at us through the lens of your culture..

A Muslim woman won't accept to see that her brother is gay..

Nor a Muslim man will accept to see that his unmarried sister dancing with a stranger in a nightclub..

Despite all of the unusual current situation and the related problems, we see that the situation of the women in Saudi Arabia is much better than that of the women in the west..


Don't try to cut part of my post and deal with it with usual way

I am not here to debate..

Such debates will normally lead to nothing,

Also, we have many absurd members over here.. ( I know that you see me as one of them, as I see you)!

I just wanted to post my view,

And I used to ignore many posts and sometimes all of the posts in some threads!

 

[danieldemol]

Despite all of the unusual current situation and the related problems, we see that the situation of the women in Saudi Arabia is much better than that of the women in the west..

Ignore away then, for as long as they are oppressed the women will continue to vote with their feet by moving to the west.