Opposition to Saudi Arabia's male guardianship system

[Ellen Brown]

As long as they keep hanging executed people aloft from cranes as a public display and warning, I'm sure the Saudis will remain well entrenched for the long-term.

KSA will be out of oil before you know it. I wonder if the Saudi/Yemen ruction is actually about oil???

Iran and Iraq has just lots of oil, and I read that Iraq has more oil than Saudi Arabia ever had. Saudi oil bucks is what has been used to pay off the dissidents. A guy I know says the Saud government will fall soon.

 

[SomeRandom]

This post is why I advocate people to go to a university and major in religion and actually study religions and their evolution.

I don't know. I prefer to pontificate pretentiously about bawdy classical literature. I suppose religion would usually come under philosophy, so I might like it.
Religion just seems like a minefield. Y'all have fun, I'll look at the pretty artsy stuff in temples/synagogues/churches instead.

It just seems to cause more trouble than it's worth. Kind of like politics. Or humans.
Like all the fighting, all the persecution, all the sneaky underhanded ways people seem to use religion. It just seems easy to weaponise or as an easy demoralising tool.
I mean I suppose you could say that about a lot of things, right?

Perhaps I'm just in a particularly melancholy mood today, I don't know.

 

[SomeRandom]

A very long time ago I read something in a book or an article that said over recorded Human history, the power of women has fluctuated, a lot. In Islam, Khadijah, Muhammad's wife funded the start of Islam and years later, women are forced into what is effectively slavery. I can't remember more about it.

Probably. I remember bits and pieces of docos from over the years and how modern Islam (at least some sects) do a great disservice to their foundations, by imposing these restrictions on women. Whether or not the host was pushing an agenda, I can't say. Mostly because I was like 10 when I caught it on TV. I do remember just after 9/11, there was a big push to educate people on Islam. Which is nice, I suppose.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Women can face worse things in Saudi Arabia than male guardianship:
Opinion | My Sister Is in a Saudi Prison. Will Mike Pompeo Stay Silent?
But it seems there are places even worse for women than SA:
India most dangerous country for women with sexual violence rife

 

[FearGod]

“An 18-year-old Saudi woman's flight from her allegedly abusive family has rallied opposition to the kingdom's male guardianship system - with some activists predicting her story could inspire a "revolution" for women in the Muslim country.”

Read more here
'Rahaf al-Qunun is going to start a revolution': Teen's plight highlights Saudi male guardianship

And here's one other Saudi woman fled from her family.
Khawla Al Khuraya - Wikipedia

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I don't know. I prefer to pontificate pretentiously about bawdy classical literature. I suppose religion would usually come under philosophy, so I might like it.
Religion just seems like a minefield. Y'all have fun, I'll look at the pretty artsy stuff in temples/synagogues/churches instead.

It just seems to cause more trouble than it's worth. Kind of like politics. Or humans.
Like all the fighting, all the persecution, all the sneaky underhanded ways people seem to use religion. It just seems easy to weaponise or as an easy demoralising tool.
I mean I suppose you could say that about a lot of things, right?

Perhaps I'm just in a particularly melancholy mood today, I don't know.

Heh...this had me chuckling.
I majored in psychology, which was an interesting exercise. A bunch of people in that course thought they'd come out 'knowing' how people thought, and would be able to solve issues like 'why people overeat'.

As a passionate advocate of education it's always worth remembering that education isn't limited to the school and university system, and only a motivated student is ever going to really learn anything.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Women can face worse things in Saudi Arabia than male guardianship:
Opinion | My Sister Is in a Saudi Prison. Will Mike Pompeo Stay Silent?
But it seems there are places even worse for women than SA:
India most dangerous country for women with sexual violence rife

Phht....
Sorry, I'm not directing that at you, and I don't doubt India has serious issues. That poll appears flawed to me though.
If the USA (warts and all) is as dangerous a place for women as Papua New Guinea then I'm a tethered goat.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

See what? What does this situation have to do with being a humanist?

Everything: what I believe and what my core values are at the very centre.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Everything: what I believe and what my core values are at the very centre.

In relation to this thread what does that mean...Explain it as if I were an 8 year-old.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Heh...this had me chuckling.
I majored in psychology, which was an interesting exercise. A bunch of people in that course thought they'd come out 'knowing' how people thought, and would be able to solve issues like 'why people overeat'.

As a passionate advocate of education it's always worth remembering that education isn't limited to the school and university system, and only a motivated student is ever going to really learn anything.

G'day mate. I studied enough Psychology to learn that I am not nice and patient enough to be a counselor.

The Saudi Guardianship system is, in my opinion, from the pit. It effectively gives primitive and abusive males rule over much nicer, and more civilized women.

Frankly I got into Islam to help me deal with deep feelings of guilt and unworthiness left from a failed life. Yes, many/most American women who convert to Islam have a very low self esteem and Islamic men mostly do nothing to help with that. The very modest covering and constant prayer helped for a time. In the final analysis, it was not about a belief system, but about an overload of guilt. It was the Christian's choice to not be so condemning.

 

[SomeRandom]

G'day mate. I studied enough Psychology to learn that I am not nice and patient enough to be a counselor.

The Saudi Guardianship system is, in my opinion, from the pit. It effectively gives primitive and abusive males rule over much nicer, and more civilized women.

Frankly I got into Islam to help me deal with deep feelings of guilt and unworthiness left from a failed life. Yes, many/most American women who convert to Islam have a very low self esteem and Islamic men mostly do nothing to help with that. The very modest covering and constant prayer helped for a time. In the final analysis, it was not about a belief system, but about an overload of guilt. It was the Christian's choice to not be so condemning.

If religion offers comfort (and excuses) do you think that religion is naturally inclined to prey upon the vulnerable in order to add more recruits?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

In relation to this thread what does that mean...Explain it as if I were an 8 year-old.

Males are humans. Females are likewise humans. Both sexes can learn to cook, to make art, to sing, to do mathematics and science and astronomy. Both are capable of great heroism and great cowardice. Both are capable of love and hate. Neither is better than the other in any of these.

And therefore, there is, to the humanist way of thinking, no reason that males must have guardianship over females, any more than there is any reason that females must have guardianship over males -- the only exceptions being (on both sides) when one is adult and the other a child.

As a child of 8, perhaps you needed your mother's guardianship, as well as your father's. As a woman of 25, with a mind and will of her own, she needs neither, even when the men in her family think they own her.

Good enough?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

If religion offers comfort (and excuses) do you think that religion is naturally inclined to prey upon the vulnerable in order to add more recruits?

Not all religions appear interested in more recruits, but it makes sense if you're talking about proselytising religions.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

G'day mate. I studied enough Psychology to learn that I am not nice and patient enough to be a counselor.

Well...maybe you would have made a good researcher! My interest was more academic, and just a chance to do a subject that wasn't related to kids... (I was studying Education).

The Saudi Guardianship system is, in my opinion, from the pit. It effectively gives primitive and abusive males rule over much nicer, and more civilized women.

I have 2 daughters, both still primary school aged. Everything I am trying to teach them, about how to act in the world, their place in it, about how they can be independent, thoughtful, caring, strong...
The Saudi system appears the antithesis of that. With a solid dose of pure hypocrisy poured in.

Frankly I got into Islam to help me deal with deep feelings of guilt and unworthiness left from a failed life. Yes, many/most American women who convert to Islam have a very low self esteem and Islamic men mostly do nothing to help with that. The very modest covering and constant prayer helped for a time. In the final analysis, it was not about a belief system, but about an overload of guilt. It was the Christian's choice to not be so condemning.

I'm not an anti-theist. But (sorry...I know how that sounds) one thing I dislike about some religions is that they set up a set of rules everyone is supposed to play by, and then those who can't or don't are judged as failures.
Of course, in reality, everyone is a failure from time to time, and the only way to measure a person is by how they drag themselves to their feet, and whether they see those around them as a helping hand to stand up, or someone to drag down.

The older I get the more I favour transparency and openness over pretty much anything else. Even manners...lol

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Males are humans. Females are likewise humans. Both sexes can learn to cook, to make art, to sing, to do mathematics and science and astronomy. Both are capable of great heroism and great cowardice. Both are capable of love and hate. Neither is better than the other in any of these.

And therefore, there is, to the humanist way of thinking, no reason that males must have guardianship over females, any more than there is any reason that females must have guardianship over males -- the only exceptions being (on both sides) when one is adult and the other a child.

As a child of 8, perhaps you needed your mother's guardianship, as well as your father's. As a woman of 25, with a mind and will of her own, she needs neither, even when the men in her family think they own her.

Good enough?

Good enough. But perhaps you do fail to realize that there are cultures that still have not truly adopted the "western way of thinking." We must understand that Saudi Arabia still has this Bedouin culture that still has this residual grip in the society. In addition this society adheres to a strict interpretation of law regarding Wali or guardianship. Perhaps this would help

Wali (Islamic legal guardian) - Wikipedia

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Good enough. But perhaps you do fail to realize that there are cultures that still have not truly adopted the "western way of thinking." We must understand that Saudi Arabia still has this Bedouin culture that still has this residual grip in the society. In addition this society adheres to a strict interpretation of law regarding Wali or guardianship. Perhaps this would help

Wali (Islamic legal guardian) - Wikipedia

That's an explanation of what is.
Do you think it unreasonable to discuss the merits of any particular cultural belief?

 

[SomeRandom]

Not all religions appear interested in more recruits, but it makes sense if you're talking about proselytising religions.

Sorry I always assume a larger Abrahamic representation, so I sometimes use "religion" as a shorthand. But I sometimes notice an occasional recruitment tactic from the non prostelysing sort.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

That's an explanation of what is.
Do you think it unreasonable to discuss the merits of any particular cultural belief?

Sure, but rightness or wrongness is merely subjective. Would I live like an indigenous person that lives off the land? Would I want to live in a hunter-gatherer society? Perhaps not considering I was raised in a technological age where I've grown accustomed to a certain way of living. I certainly don't think the western way is utopian but perhaps on a scale of livability I would say living in a democratic style is perhaps the most suitable. Point is, we can discuss the merits of society but whether it is true or not is purely subjective and not based on any objective truth. The Arabs have a reason why guardianship was in place and those reasons are related to however they believe what was an issue in the earlier formation of their society.

 

[SomeRandom]

Sure, but rightness or wrongness is merely subjective. Would I live like an indigenous person that lives off the land? Would I want to live in a hunter-gatherer society? Perhaps not considering I was raised in a technological age where I've grown accustomed to a certain way of living. I certainly don't think the western way is utopian but perhaps on a scale of livability I would say living in a democratic style is perhaps the most suitable. Point is, we can discuss the merits of society but whether it is true or not is purely subjective and not based on any objective truth. The Arabs have a reason why guardianship was in place and those reasons are related to however they believe what was an issue in the earlier formation of their society.

Maybe. But I don't mean to sound dismissive, but who cares if that's what you grew up with? This lady certainly did and there are many more cases of women fleeing for their very lives. They all grew up in this system. They're used to it. And yet they still call it out for being abusive.
Could we not take that as a sign that this is not a particularly good system? At least for women?
We criticise our system all the time and we grew up in it. The suffragettes were used to being in the home and not voting. They still called out the system for its nonsense.
People who lived during segregation were used to it, they grew up in it. Until people took a stand and said, hey this system is BS.
They all had their reasons for existing based on our society's perceived issues. But just because something is traditional or worked before doesn't mean it should be impervious to change or debate.
Time and again we criticise our own system. The system we are used to and grew up in. And every time it was to address mistakes, issues and (try to) make it better. Surely that is something that we can say is beneficial and thus at least hope it occurs elsewhere. Just for humanitarian reasons.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Maybe. But I don't mean to sound dismissive, but who cares if that's what you grew up with?

Jesus. My comment on how I grew up was a Segway to point out that how we were raised depends on the respective societies we live in. Therefore, I cannot say how Arabs live is wrong and how I live is right. Maybe if I lived in an Arab style society I wouldn't have an issue with the whole idea of guardianship who knows?

This lady certainly did and there are many more cases of women fleeing for their very lives. They all grew up in this system. They're used to it. And yet they still call it out for being abusive.

Maybe the problem is the actual abuse and not the system itself.

Could we not take that as a sign that this is not a particularly good system? At least for women?

The abuse is unfortunately s making the system look bad..