"Open" Orthodoxy?

[CMike]

Nope. I stand by what I said, though post 71 was fairly heinous.

I am, unfortunately, used to encountering a lot of Jews that are deeply ignorant of what has been written by different scholars in different movements and in different eras. But I meet very few whose ignorance is not only willful but a matter of pride for them.

To think that I should have lived to hear a Jew say that he doesn't care what is in books, won't read them, and doesn't respect them...! That might be an unprecedented low in my experience.

I said I don't care about those books because I don't have respect for the opinions of the authors, just like I don't care about the Jews for Jesus analysis of Judaism.

Believe whatever you want, however, creating your own left wing version, and saying it's part of Orthodox Judaism is obnoxious.

 

[CMike]

What two reform Jews "think" now make up Orthodox Judaism is just ridiculous.

 

[Levite]

I said I don't care about those books because I don't have respect for the opinions of the authors...

You decided in advance that you don't respect the authors, without ever having read what they have to say, or trying to understand where they are coming from. That is not thoughtful disagreement, it's just knee-jerk hating.

Even if the scholars under discussion were Reform-- and it is beyond ludicrous to call them so-- it would still be an appalling example of contempt toward your fellow Jews to lump them in with a Christian missionary group. It is sinat chinam, pure and simple.

 

[CMike]

You decided in advance that you don't respect the authors, without ever having read what they have to say, or trying to understand where they are coming from. That is not thoughtful disagreement, it's just knee-jerk hating.

Even if the scholars under discussion were Reform-- and it is beyond ludicrous to call them so-- it would still be an appalling example of contempt toward your fellow Jews to lump them in with a Christian missionary group. It is sinat chinam, pure and simple.

I definitely lump them in that category.

I know what makes up Orthodox Judaism. I don't need some leftists/reform to tell me what it makes it up.

That is utterly obnoxious.

 

[Rhiamom]

Yes, Shabbat Shalom to everybody. My preparations are well underway.

 

[CMike]

You decided in advance that you don't respect the authors, without ever having read what they have to say, or trying to understand where they are coming from. That is not thoughtful disagreement, it's just knee-jerk hating.

Even if the scholars under discussion were Reform-- and it is beyond ludicrous to call them so-- it would still be an appalling example of contempt toward your fellow Jews to lump them in with a Christian missionary group. It is sinat chinam, pure and simple.

Then they should stop acting like christian missionary groups.

 

[Akivah]

Enough with all the insults CMike. We get that you think that anyone that disagrees with you is automatically a Christian. Let's move along already with something more constructive.

 

[CMike]

Enough with all the insults CMike. We get that you think that anyone that disagrees with you is automatically a Christian. Let's move along already with something more constructive.

I must commend you for your great powers of perception.

 

[Tumah]

Outside of Open Orthodoxers themselves, I have yet to meet anyone who considers them on the Orthodox side of the line between non-Orthodox and Orthodox.

Maybe far-right Conservative would be more appropriate.

 

[EshetChayil]

Does anybody here have any first-hand experience with them?

I've met with a couple rabbis, graduates from Chovevei Torah and they are fabulous, passionate, Torah-centric leaders. Someone else in this thread said something similar: their words and works impress me consistently. One of them is R' Shmuly Yanklowitz who I believe is now in Arizona. He authored The Soul of Jewish Social Justice among other works; highly, highly recommended reading.

I am also friends with one of the maharats from Yeshivat Maharat who was just ordained as clergy in L.A. and she is also an outstanding leader and teacher, as well as a traditionally observant Orthodox Jew. Theologically there is nothing un-Orthodox about any of their interpretations of Torah, only that they seem to approach it in a way that allows them to meet modern ethical standards and sensibilities where they are.

... which, if you ask me, was an acceptable Orthodox approach for a millennia before we all started splittin' up into denominations... but I digress.

 

[Tumah]

I've met with a couple rabbis, graduates from Chovevei Torah and they are fabulous, passionate, Torah-centric leaders. Someone else in this thread said something similar: their words and works impress me consistently. One of them is R' Shmuly Yanklowitz who I believe is now in Arizona. He authored The Soul of Jewish Social Justice among other works; highly, highly recommended reading.

I am also friends with one of the maharats from Yeshivat Maharat who was just ordained as clergy in L.A. and she is also an outstanding leader and teacher, as well as a traditionally observant Orthodox Jew. Theologically there is nothing un-Orthodox about any of their interpretations of Torah, only that they seem to approach it in a way that allows them to meet modern ethical standards and sensibilities where they are.

... which, if you ask me, was an acceptable Orthodox approach for a millennia before we all started splittin' up into denominations... but I digress.

That basically sums up the Conservative approach to halacha.

When exactly was that an acceptable Orthodox approach?

 

[Levite]

That basically sums up the Conservative approach to halacha.

When exactly was that an acceptable Orthodox approach?

For most of the past 2000 years, pretty much right up until the Chatam Sofer and his followers began charedifying frum Judaism.

 

[Tumah]

For most of the past 2000 years, pretty much right up until the Chatam Sofer and his followers began charedifying frum Judaism.

So what you are claiming, is that the Conservative approach to halacha was always the standard approach, and not a response to the Enlightenment.

I will note, that whatever the Chasam Sofer's approach actually was, history seems to have proven him correct. פוק חזי מאי עמא דבר:

This is only an issue inasmuch as any Conservative Jew actively observes mitzvot. As one myself, I find that most other Conservative Jews don't feel obligated to observe anything really, with the exception, perhaps, of kashrut. So whether we women are obligated to or not, the entire community (as a general rule, not that there are not exceptions...) is still only doing as much as they feel like it.

 

[Levite]

So what you are claiming, is that the Conservative approach to halacha was always the standard approach, and not a response to the Enlightenment.

I will note, that whatever the Chasam Sofer's approach actually was, history seems to have proven him correct. פוק חזי מאי עמא דבר:

This is only an issue inasmuch as any Conservative Jew actively observes mitzvot. As one myself, I find that most other Conservative Jews don't feel obligated to observe anything really, with the exception, perhaps, of kashrut. So whether we women are obligated to or not, the entire community (as a general rule, not that there are not exceptions...) is still only doing as much as they feel like it.

There is no one single Conservative approach to halachah, but the understanding that halachah is an evolving system, intended to be used actively, for interpretation to resolve issues both old and new in such a way that Jews can live life where and when they are, and not try to have to live lives stuck in a frozen past is not novel to Conservative Judaism, but can consistently be found (if not in those words) in writings of various great rabbis through the ages, all the way back to the Talmud.

In any case, we do not psak halachah or judge its observance by some people, or even the majority of a specific generation. And personally, I would rather have a community that fails in many areas but is committed to overall principles of compassion, thoughtfulness, and inclusiveness than one that observes rigorously at the expense of inclusiveness, free thought, and compassion to those not like themselves.

 

[Tumah]

There is no one single Conservative approach to halachah, but the understanding that halachah is an evolving system, intended to be used actively, for interpretation to resolve issues both old and new in such a way that Jews can live life where and when they are, and not try to have to live lives stuck in a frozen past is not novel to Conservative Judaism, but can consistently be found (if not in those words) in writings of various great rabbis through the ages, all the way back to the Talmud.

I would love to hear a few examples.

In any case, we do not psak halachah or judge its observance by some people, or even the majority of a specific generation. And personally, I would rather have a community that fails in many areas but is committed to overall principles of compassion, thoughtfulness, and inclusiveness than one that observes rigorously at the expense of inclusiveness, free thought, and compassion to those not like themselves.

That brings to mind that famous statement from Chazal הלואי אותי עזבו ותורתי שמרו

 

[Levite]

I would love to hear a few examples.

I am finding it hard to motivate myself to assemble a series of citations and quotes when I already know that if I do, you will simply tell me I am misinterpreting them, that they don't really mean that, or find some other way to spin them to support the vision of halachic history you have already decided is correct.