"Open" Orthodoxy?

[RabbiO]

There are couple of lines from People Will Talk, a 1951 Cary Grant film, that come to mind.

"[Y]ou're a little man. It's not that you're short. You're...little, in the mind and in the heart. Tonight, you tried to make a man little whose boots you couldn't touch if you stood on tiptoe on top of the highest mountain in the world. And as it turned out...you're even littler than you were before."

 

[Rhiamom]

Back to the topic at hand, Open Orthodox Judaism: I remember a skerfluffle a while back about all the conversions done by Rabbi Weiss being retroactively invalidated by the Chief Rabbinate. Eventually the Chief Rabbinate backed down, as there was only evidence that all the conversions he had performed were according to halacha and he himself had always remained fully observant. Or, they could not find any reason to invalidate the conversions that they could make stick. This indicates a couple of things to me, but the pertinent one is that Haredi Judaism is looking for a way to destroy Open Orthodox Judaism. Can Open Orthodox stand strong? I surely hope so! Just how large is this movement?

 

[CMike]

This reminds me very much how Christians think they know more about Judaism than the Jews do.

Same principle.

 

[CMike]

You don't have to be a bagel to know how to make one.

You do have to be a bagel to know what it's like to be a bagel.

 

[CMike]

Back to the topic at hand, Open Orthodox Judaism: I remember a skerfluffle a while back about all the conversions done by Rabbi Weiss being retroactively invalidated by the Chief Rabbinate. Eventually the Chief Rabbinate backed down, as there was only evidence that all the conversions he had performed were according to halacha and he himself had always remained fully observant. Or, they could not find any reason to invalidate the conversions that they could make stick. This indicates a couple of things to me, but the pertinent one is that Haredi Judaism is looking for a way to destroy Open Orthodox Judaism. Can Open Orthodox stand strong? I surely hope so! Just how large is this movement?

Since it only exists in the minds of the leftists whom have nothing to do with modern Orthodox Judaism it's irrelevant.

It's very similar to the relationship of Jews for Jesus on Judaism.

 

[CMike]

Statements like that do not correct the appearance that you know nothing about what you are talking about.

A vigorous refusal to read anything beyond a narrow pool of approved propaganda is not a sign of intelligence. Can you think of any possible reason why, having demonstrated repeatedly that you prefer reflexive jabs and put-downs, and simplistic hyper-generalizations, rather than thoughtful and considered dialogue and debate, that anything you post should be taken seriously?

Books are simply opinions. I don't care what their opinions are, because I have no respect for them.

 

[CMike]

No, but unlike you I have made it my business to learn all I can about the various branches of Judaism, their history and their dogma. I could never be Orthodox because I cannot accept the Orthodox view of the Torah. I could never be Reform because I cannot accept the mitzvot being optional. That leaves me being a Conservative Jew - but one educated about all the branches. You have been educated in only one point of view.

Not really. You are going by the opinions of extreme leftist Jews.

 

[Rhiamom]

Not really. You are going by the opinions of extreme leftist Jews.

I suppose that everybody is going to be on the extreme left of a person looking from the extreme right.

 

[Rhiamom]

Books are simply opinions. I don't care what their opinions are, because I have no respect for them.

No, you merely have opinions. The books I mentioned are scholarly works with extensive footnotes referencing the original sources. And those original sources are primarily rabbinic writings several hundred years old. But you don't read those, either, because they do not always agree with the revised versions you get through Artscroll.

 

[Levite]

Books are simply opinions. I don't care what their opinions are, because I have no respect for them.

I can only hope you present that opinion loudly the next time you step into a beis midrash.

That is likely the single most un-Jewish thing a Jew has said in this forum, and that is really saying something.

 

[CMike]

I can only hope you present that opinion loudly the next time you step into a beis midrash.

That is likely the single most un-Jewish thing a Jew has said in this forum, and that is really saying something.

Not at all, based on Judaism it's forbidden to study about foreign religions.

 

[CMike]

No, you merely have opinions. The books I mentioned are scholarly works with extensive footnotes referencing the original sources. And those original sources are primarily rabbinic writings several hundred years old. But you don't read those, either, because they do not always agree with the revised versions you get through Artscroll.

That's what the Christians say too when they pervert the Tanach.

 

[Rhiamom]

Plonk! I don't believe in feeding the trolls.

Again, back to Open Orthodox Judaism. Does anybody here have any first-hand experience with them?

I noted that their call for an increased role for women stopped short of having female rabbis. Good sense, I think. Female rabbis are a complete meh! for me; I simply can't work up a strong opinion on it, but my sense of justice leans toward having them.

I approve strongly of a reduced or eliminated mechitza. I wouldn't mind sitting separately, but being screened off would definitely give me a sense of being considered inferior.

 

[CMike]

Plonk! I don't believe in feeding the trolls.

Again, back to Open Orthodox Judaism. Does anybody here have any first-hand experience with them?

I noted that their call for an increased role for women stopped short of having female rabbis. Good sense, I think. Female rabbis are a complete meh! for me; I simply can't work up a strong opinion on it, but my sense of justice leans toward having them.

I approve strongly of a reduced or eliminated mechitza. I wouldn't mind sitting separately, but being screened off would definitely give me a sense of being considered inferior.

It's called reform Judaism.

 

[RabbiO]

I can only hope you present that opinion loudly the next time you step into a beis midrash.

That is likely the single most un-Jewish thing a Jew has said in this forum, and that is really saying something.

I'm afraid you spoke too soon. See Post #71.

And the evening is still young.

 

[RabbiO]

You do have to be a bagel to know what it's like to be a bagel.

Assuming for the moment the truth of your proposition - and assuming, as well, that since you ascribe to it, you believe it to be true - you have neither the knowledge, the wisdom, the background, the authority or the right to say anything at all about the Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative or Humanistic movements within Judaism.

Assuming for the moment the truth of your proposition, the only thing you actually have a right to opine is that none of those movements are Orthodox, at least as you perceive it and practice it. You've already done that.

 

[CMike]

Assuming for the moment the truth of your proposition - and assuming, as well, that since you ascribe to it, you believe it to be true - you have neither the knowledge, the wisdom, the background, the authority or the right to say anything at all about the Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative or Humanistic movements within Judaism.

Assuming for the moment the truth of your proposition, the only thing you actually have a right to opine is that none of those movements are Orthodox, at least as you perceive it and practice it. You've already done that.

Actually I rarely comment about the movements at all unless it's about something idiotic that a poster brings up.

 

[Levite]

I'm afraid you spoke too soon. See Post #71.

And the evening is still young.

Nope. I stand by what I said, though post 71 was fairly heinous.

I am, unfortunately, used to encountering a lot of Jews that are deeply ignorant of what has been written by different scholars in different movements and in different eras. But I meet very few whose ignorance is not only willful but a matter of pride for them.

To think that I should have lived to hear a Jew say that he doesn't care what is in books, won't read them, and doesn't respect them...! That might be an unprecedented low in my experience.

 

[metis]

OK, can we all sing along: "Why can't we be friends; why can't we be friends, ...".

OK, get your finger our of your ears-- I'll just

Shabbat shalom

 

[RabbiO]

Nope. I stand by what I said, though post 71 was fairly heinous.

I am, unfortunately, used to encountering a lot of Jews that are deeply ignorant of what has been written by different scholars in different movements and in different eras. But I meet very few whose ignorance is not only willful but a matter of pride for them.

To think that I should have lived to hear a Jew say that he doesn't care what is in books, won't read them, and doesn't respect them...! That might be an unprecedented low in my experience.

I'll split the difference and consider post 66 and post 71 as parts A&B of the most un-Jewish thing a Jew has said on this forum.