"Open" Orthodoxy?

[rosends]

The thing is, Modern Orthodox isn't what it used to be. Fifty years ago, when the Rav was at YU (and chavrusa'ed on a regular basis with Saul Lieberman from JTS), and when Regensburg and Berkovits were at Skokie, and when nobody could tell which side of the movement divide Heschel fell on, and when Reb Zalman was still a progressive Lubavitcher, Modern Orthodoxy pushed a lot of boundaries.

There were still many Modern Orthodox shuls at that time that had no mechitza, or the merest token separation in seating. There were serious Modern Orthodox rabbeyim who were advocating for social justice-- including supporting civil rights and opposing the war in Vietnam, who were thoughtfully considering issues in hashgachah and shechitah, who were grappling in sophisticated ways (for their time) with bioethics, who were trying to find innovative ways to bridge some of the most important halachic issues dividing the movements, like conversion and aginut. There were serious Modern Orthodox rabbeyim who learned with non-Orthodox rabbeyim, who advocated welcoming and not judging non-Orthodox Jews, who were interested in interfaith dialogue.

But Modern Orthodoxy has gotten less and less Modern, and more and more subservient to charedi influence and authority. It's not that there are no more truly Modern Orthodox Jews left outside Open Orthodox, it's that they are increasingly few and far between, especially in my generation and those that have come after.

When I encounter such Modern Orthodox Jews, like yourself, I find them an altogether unexpected delight. I wish I encountered them more.

Modern Orthodox, to the best of my understanding, never was what it used to be, even back then. What I know of it now is that it is the torah umada concept, just not quite the way YU does it. A beautiful non-answer. But those four items, secular education, integration in the world, acceptance of science and dialogue with other groups is how we teach MO these days

 

[Rhiamom]

I don't consider myself Open Orthodox but I don't espouse some of the things which you ascribe to non-Open Orthodox Orthodox Jews. So how does that work. I clearly don't have the "stupid bits" but I'm not "Open Orthodox." The four items you list were part of the defining ideal of "Modern Orthodox" just a few years ago.

Which is why Modern Orthodox is being figuratively shown to the door as far as being Orthodox enough to suit the Israeli Haredim running the Chief Rabbinate. Try to get a Modern Orthodox conversion recognized in Israel. It won't happen.

The definition of what Orthodox Judaism is has been pushed ever further to the right, to stringencies and fences around the fences around the Rabbinic decrees redefined as Torah commandments. Orthodox women in the USA prior to the massive influx of Eastern European Jews post WWII wore sleeveless blouses, swam in normal swimsuits, and attended synagogues with no Mechitza. The Orthodox Judaism of today would not approve of any of that. Open Orthodoxy truly seems to be the legitimate successor to the original Orthodox Judaism.

 

[rosends]

Which is why Modern Orthodox is being figuratively shown to the door as far as being Orthodox enough to suit the Israeli Haredim running the Chief Rabbinate. Try to get a Modern Orthodox conversion recognized in Israel. It won't happen.

The definition of what Orthodox Judaism is has been pushed ever further to the right, to stringencies and fences around the fences around the Rabbinic decrees redefined as Torah commandments. Orthodox women in the USA prior to the massive influx of Eastern European Jews post WWII wore sleeveless blouses, swam in normal swimsuits, and attended synagogues with no Mechitza. The Orthodox Judaism of today would not approve of any of that. Open Orthodoxy truly seems to be the legitimate successor to the original Orthodox Judaism.

I think that there was a middle ground attempted a few years back called Traditional Judaism (it started as Traditional Conservative and droped the C word eventually. Separate but not mechitzah and enhanced roles for women, among other things.

I agree that the centrist Orthodoxy has drifted to the right (the chumra of the day and the use of technology to create further demands on ourselves are examples) but MO is still trying to maintain some relevance. The problem (and I have written a little on this) is that one cannot begin with a compromise position. Maybe we have to compensate and move to the right, knowing that the next generation will, as a knee jerk reaction, rebel, and we want to mitigate how far to the left that rebellion becomes. (sorry for the self-promotion...)

And as I understand it (limited, admittedly), the Israeli rabbinate is shutting the door on conversions by most everyone outside of Israel. They are politicizing and freezing out more than just someone calling himself MO.

 

[Rhiamom]

I think that there was a middle ground attempted a few years back called Traditional Judaism (it started as Traditional Conservative and droped the C word eventually. Separate but not mechitzah and enhanced roles for women, among other things.

I agree that the centrist Orthodoxy has drifted to the right (the chumra of the day and the use of technology to create further demands on ourselves are examples) but MO is still trying to maintain some relevance. The problem (and I have written a little on this) is that one cannot begin with a compromise position. Maybe we have to compensate and move to the right, knowing that the next generation will, as a knee jerk reaction, rebel, and we want to mitigate how far to the left that rebellion becomes. (sorry for the self-promotion...)

And as I understand it (limited, admittedly), the Israeli rabbinate is shutting the door on conversions by most everyone outside of Israel. They are politicizing and freezing out more than just someone calling himself MO.

I don't know why, but it bothers me a lot that Orthodox Judaism is allowing themselves to be controlled by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate, even to setting up regional batei din in the US for conversions - all controlled by Haredi rabbis. Haredi conversions in the US are not being questioned by the Chief Rabbinate, you know. Only regular and Modern Orthodox. Conservative and Reform converts have no such issue, as they are not controlled by the Chief Rabbinate but by the Masorti and Reform movements in Israel. Any other hotbed of liberal Judaism, like Canada, is similarly treated.

I understand your idea of a rightward drift in MO to compensate for an anticipated leftward drift. I don't agree. I think it is more a case of doing what they must to retain acceptance by the rest of US Orthodox Judaism as THEY drift rightward.

The use of technology to create further demands...hmm. The light boxes I have seen for inspecting already washed lettuce springs to mind.

 

[rosends]

The use of technology to create further demands...hmm. The light boxes I have seen for inspecting already washed lettuce springs to mind.

I get the sense that if a modern day Orthodox Jew were to be transported back in time to the home of Hillel on Pesach, he wouldn't feel comfortable having the matzah.

I hope you know the joke about the frum guy who passes away and his arrival in shamayim is celebrated with a huge feast. He pulls aside an angel and asks who the hashgacha is. The angel replies "what do you mean? All the food is supervised by Hakadosh boruch hu, himself!" The guy says "I'll have the salad."

Being Modern Orthodox means laughing at that joke, and yet still holding by chumros anyway.

 

[Rhiamom]

I get the sense that if a modern day Orthodox Jew were to be transported back in time to the home of Hillel on Pesach, he wouldn't feel comfortable having the matzah.

I hope you know the joke about the frum guy who passes away and his arrival in shamayim is celebrated with a huge feast. He pulls aside an angel and asks who the hashgacha is. The angel replies "what do you mean? All the food is supervised by Hakadosh boruch hu, himself!" The guy says "I'll have the salad."

Being Modern Orthodox means laughing at that joke, and yet still holding by chumros anyway.

Oy. I get that joke, I really do. The thing that makes humor work is the kernel of truth in it. Better to laugh than cry, better to follow the community standard than rock the boat. As community oriented as Judaism is, rocking the boat is not a wise plan.

 

[Levite]

Modern Orthodox, to the best of my understanding, never was what it used to be, even back then. What I know of it now is that it is the torah umada concept, just not quite the way YU does it. A beautiful non-answer. But those four items, secular education, integration in the world, acceptance of science and dialogue with other groups is how we teach MO these days

I hope that is true.

But that still leaves a lot of places where halachah in even Modern Orthodoxy has become rigid and ossified and/or excessively chumradiche.

It seems like a lot of Modern Orthodox institutions and rabbis are afraid to do anything halachically that would get them labeled as apikorsim by the charedi institutions-- not realizing that the charedi institutions already consider them apikorsim....

I know some fine Modern Orthodox rabbis who have had cherems slapped on them by charedified Orthodox batei din for things like sitting on a bet din with a Conservative rabbi, accepting a Reform conversion when presented with comprehensive evidence the conversion was done halachically, using the Berkovits t'nai b'kiddushin with their ketubot, letting women layn from the Torah, even for letting women give divrei Torah in shul....

 

[Rhiamom]

I hope that is true.

But that still leaves a lot of places where halachah in even Modern Orthodoxy has become rigid and ossified and/or excessively chumradiche.

It seems like a lot of Modern Orthodox institutions and rabbis are afraid to do anything halachically that would get them labeled as apikorsim by the charedi institutions-- not realizing that the charedi institutions already consider them apikorsim....

I know some fine Modern Orthodox rabbis who have had cherems slapped on them by charedified Orthodox batei din for things like sitting on a bet din with a Conservative rabbi, accepting a Reform conversion when presented with comprehensive evidence the conversion was done halachically, using the Berkovits t'nai b'kiddushin with their ketubot, letting women layn from the Torah, even for letting women give divrei Torah in shul....

The third time in 2 days somebody has expressed what I was trying to say, and better than my attempt. Thank you, Levite.

Did I not say that the Modern Orthodox are being shown to the door, meaning that they are not considered to be Orthodox enough? They are in the same boat as the Conservative and Reform movements, they just have not noticed or admitted it ....yet.

 

[metis]

Did I not say that the Modern Orthodox are being shown to the door, meaning that they are not considered to be Orthodox enough? They are in the same boat as the Conservative and Reform movements, they just have not noticed or admitted it ....yet.

LOL!

Reminds me of what my rabbi has said, namely that all of today's Jews are truly reform Jews but only some are willing to admit it.

 

[CMike]

Though I doubt it will make any difference, since to date, it never has, I will once again suggest that prior to spouting the most simplistic and abrasive form of whatever party line comes out of YU or Agudas Israel or Chabad or wherever it is you're picking this stuff up, you might wish to actually read some of what the Open Orthodox rabbis are writing, and some of their teshuvot, and try-- as novel and taxing as it might seem to be-- to think carefully about what you read and actually make an informed response.

I care as must what they say about Orthodox Judaism as I do about Jews for Jesus has to say has to say about Judaism.

You are left wing/Reform. Define yourself as you wish.

I have an issue with you going into other beliefs and trying to redefine/pervert them into whatever you think that they should be.

 

[CMike]

"CMike said: ↑
And that isn't Orthodox Judaism.

I got to a small Chabad synagogue. In the row in front of me there are about five doctors, primary and specialties.

Behind me there are more doctors, we have several neurologists, opthamtologists, shrinks, geriatric doctors.

We also have pyscists, lawyers, a female anestheologist, and so on.

Our little Chabad synagogue is probably one of the safest places to be in case of a disaster.

Obviously your understanding of Orthodox Judaism is very poor.

In fact I had a bad nosebleed issue Friday. I had to go to the ER. One of my friends from the small Chabad synagogue was an ER doctor there when I came into the ER.

It's greatest that you rely on the extreme leftists to define Orthodox Judaism. Keep up the great work
Click to expand..."

And had these professionals not got their secular education before becoming Lubavitch Baal Teshuvot they would probably not have these degrees. The late Lubavitcher Rebbe was quite opposed to advanced secular education for all but a few. You also are implying that Hasidic Judaism is the norm for Orthodox Judaism. It certainly wants to be, but it isn't.

Lubavitch is the least inwardly focused of the Hasidic sects, and I have great respect for them. In fact, I have visited the nearest Chabad location and spoken with the rabbi there at some length. We seem to understand each other, and he agrees with me on the subject about which we spoke.

I didn't say they there all necessary Lubavitch and/or Chabad.

However, they would classify themselves as Orthodox/traditional.

I graduated from Yeshiva University High School and College. That is the largest modern Orthodox school in this country.

I know what Orthodox Judaism is.

YU has produced a tremendous amount of secular professionals.

I do very much like the Chabad shul I go to. The people are great, and you can't beat the food.

My philosophy is go to the synagogue that has the best food.

There are different groups within all the different branches of Judiasm. However, they aren't necessary the norm.

 

[CMike]

Which is why Modern Orthodox is being figuratively shown to the door as far as being Orthodox enough to suit the Israeli Haredim running the Chief Rabbinate. Try to get a Modern Orthodox conversion recognized in Israel. It won't happen.

The definition of what Orthodox Judaism is has been pushed ever further to the right, to stringencies and fences around the fences around the Rabbinic decrees redefined as Torah commandments. Orthodox women in the USA prior to the massive influx of Eastern European Jews post WWII wore sleeveless blouses, swam in normal swimsuits, and attended synagogues with no Mechitza. The Orthodox Judaism of today would not approve of any of that. Open Orthodoxy truly seems to be the legitimate successor to the original Orthodox Judaism.

That is called Reform Judaism.

 

[RabbiO]

I care as must what they say about Orthodox Judaism as I do about Jews for Jesus has to say has to say about Judaism.

You are left wing/Reform. Define yourself as you wish.

I have an issue with you going into other beliefs and trying to redefine/pervert them into whatever you think that they should be.

Lucky for you the birkhot hashachar liturgy went with Rabbi Acha instead of Rabbi Meir. There's one blessing you would have had to omit.

(And, yes, I know --- you weren't talking to me.)

 

[Rhiamom]

That is called Reform Judaism.

No, it was not then and it is not now. Your willful ignorance of the history of Orthodox Judaism in the USA reflects badly on both you and Orthodox Judaism. Only those who fear what they might find refuse to examine their religion's dogma and history. I would suggest reading Must a Jew Believe Anything? or Dogma in Medieval Jewish Thought, both by Menachem Kellner. But you won't read either, just as you refused to read anything about Open Orthodox Judaism, because you limit yourself to ultra-Orthodox propaganda. Talking smack from a position of total ignorance makes you nothing but a troll.

 

[Levite]

No, it was not then and it is not now. Your willful ignorance of the history of Orthodox Judaism in the USA reflects badly on both you and Orthodox Judaism. Only those who fear what they might find refuse to examine their religion's dogma and history. I would suggest reading Must a Jew Believe Anything? or Dogma in Medieval Jewish Thought, both by Menachem Kellner. But you won't read either, just as you refused to read anything about Open Orthodox Judaism, because you limit yourself to ultra-Orthodox propaganda. Talking smack from a position of total ignorance makes you nothing but a troll.

That is an accurate summation.

 

[CMike]

No, it was not then and it is not now. Your willful ignorance of the history of Orthodox Judaism in the USA reflects badly on both you and Orthodox Judaism. Only those who fear what they might find refuse to examine their religion's dogma and history. I would suggest reading Must a Jew Believe Anything? or Dogma in Medieval Jewish Thought, both by Menachem Kellner. But you won't read either, just as you refused to read anything about Open Orthodox Judaism, because you limit yourself to ultra-Orthodox propaganda. Talking smack from a position of total ignorance makes you nothing but a troll.

And you are an Orthodox Jew correct?

I just figured since you know so much about it, it must be the Judaism that you practice, correct?

 

[CMike]

That is an accurate summation.

To an extreme leftist that wouldn't be surprising.

 

[Rhiamom]

And you are an Orthodox Jew correct?

I just figured since you know so much about it, it must be the Judaism that you practice, correct?

No, but unlike you I have made it my business to learn all I can about the various branches of Judaism, their history and their dogma. I could never be Orthodox because I cannot accept the Orthodox view of the Torah. I could never be Reform because I cannot accept the mitzvot being optional. That leaves me being a Conservative Jew - but one educated about all the branches. You have been educated in only one point of view.

 

[RabbiO]

And you are an Orthodox Jew correct?

I just figured since you know so much about it, it must be the Judaism that you practice, correct?

You don't have to be a bagel to know how to make one.

 

[Levite]

To an extreme leftist that wouldn't be surprising.

Statements like that do not correct the appearance that you know nothing about what you are talking about.

A vigorous refusal to read anything beyond a narrow pool of approved propaganda is not a sign of intelligence. Can you think of any possible reason why, having demonstrated repeatedly that you prefer reflexive jabs and put-downs, and simplistic hyper-generalizations, rather than thoughtful and considered dialogue and debate, that anything you post should be taken seriously?