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Featured Only Jesus adherents will attain salvation.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by syncretic, Jun 17, 2017.

  1. syncretic

    syncretic Veteran Member

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    We are told sometimes, that people who refused to accept Jesus, will somehow get a "second chance"at judgement. This seems highly unlikely, because of course that will "make"people "convert". It is a silly concept, aside from those who literally never got the oppurtunity. Scripture seems to back this, as well.



    This isnt to say there cant be a second chance, but that is contextual
     
  2. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Bold Empty Claim
     
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  3. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man.

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    Second chances don't help when the first is non-existant save for what rattles in people's minds.
     
  4. Carlita

    Carlita March 11th 2017 Equality PRIDE Flag!

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    I don't think Jesus taught there was a second chance. It's logical, though. If I don't accept an unopened gift from my parent, then even though I don't know what's in the box so I can't benefit nor not benefit from what's in it, I still "lose out" on having it in the first place.

    Some people say those who have the opportunity to reject. If my parent gave me a box and I do not know what is in it, and they gave me the choice to say no, and I do say no, that's not reject but taking the option to not take the box. As a result, if there was something that I could benefit from that box, I would not know. A lot of believers blame non-believers for what they do not know thinking that they opened the box, found gold, and threw it away.

    Even if that were true, why would non-believers want gold if some of us say it is not beneficial to us as it as it is to others? If we are given the choice, even though by default we would not benefit, that guilt of not being saved was technically on us because of our choice.

    Some of us really don't care about the consequence of not taking the gift because we do not find it detrimental to our physical, mental, and spiritual health. So, if believers and books say that a non-believer is not saved (and by default, they are not), it does not matter. They don't care.

    It has to matter to them in some way or somehow for them to feel the consequence of so-called rejection of a gift they never opened.

    If they opened it, it has to benefit them in someway for them to feel the consequence of saying no (which they are given the choice to say)

    In christianity, the parent says "if you do not obey god as my son says he (representing god) will say 'I never known you'" hence, that child would not be saved.

    Yes, it's horrible for christians to hear and yes, I believe only jesus adherents would be saved, but why should it bother christians about those who do not care what's in the box and/or those who opened it and did not find it beneficial to their mental, physical, and spiritual health?
     
    #4 Carlita, Jun 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
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  5. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Except theoretically if it is meant in a very figurative way, the claim that there is a "need to accept Jesus" is entirely absurd and readily self-contradictory.

    I suppose the idea that there is a second opportunity "right there at the crossroads" removes the logical contradictions and makes it only extremelly silly.
     
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  6. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    The '2nd chance' is not about gentiles. First the gospel is preached to Jews everywhere and not to gentiles at all, and when this is preached it is highly critical of a particular generation of Jews. Peter tells them they must get on board or they are opposing God and ruining their own position (Acts 2-3). Later Paul (the apostle to the gentiles) starts approaching gentiles, reportedly because Jews are not getting on board. Paul also says that the Jews who have rejected Jesus are not condemned for it and that one day they will agree about Jesus. That is Paul's belief, and that is the '2nd chance'.

    Also this '2nd chance' thing is used to falsely imply that converts get a certain number of chances: 1, 2 etc. It is used to imply that gentiles have to embrace beliefs, doctrines, words in order to be Christians; and that I think is a mistake. You do not lose your chance all at once but gradually as you get older, crustier, more set in your ways. If you live like a Christian that is both acceptance of Jesus and of his message, and then you build character on that. Your lifetime is the opportunity, the chance, to learn obedience and to better yourself. Doing so is life, while not doing so is death. So there is not this 1st 2nd 3rd chance thing. There is just your life and how you live.
     
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  7. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    You're describing a god that grants man free will and the faculty of reason, leaves behind a book that reasonable reject and no other indication that it exists, hides from us until it is too late, and then punishes with eternal suffering those unwilling to believe in it by faith without hope of parole after finally showing itself.

    I have no reason to accept that scenario.
    • "I do not think it is necessary to believe that the same God who has given us our senses, reason, and intelligence wished us to abandon their use, giving us by some other means the information that we could gain through them" - Galileo Galilei
    Besides, if it were to turn out that the universe contains such a god, we're all doomed already anyway.

    Not helpful to those that don't accept that scripture is of divine origin. The book is not convincing:
    • "Imagine how spectacular a book would be if it were authored by a deity who created the universe. Yet there isn't a sentence in any holy book today that couldn't have been written by someone from the first century, and anyone today could easily improve on any of the holy books that people still follow. If a deity exists, it would be far more intelligent that anybody who has ever lived. So what does that say when anyone can improve on the Bible and Qur'an, but very few can improve on a book by Stephen Hawking?" - anon
     
    #7 It Aint Necessarily So, Jun 17, 2017
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  8. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen uǝɥʇɐǝH ɹǝɥʇɐℲ

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    The whole idea of eternal damnation is a silly concept.
     
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  9. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    If God were to condemn those who question Jesus' status or even to be unaware who he is, then I would suggest that this would put God into the "homicidal maniac" category. Sorry, but it doesn't make any sense to have such a position, imo.
     
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  10. The Holy Bottom Burp

    Premium Member

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    Which Jesus Syncretic? The Catholic Jesus? No problem. Pope tells atheists: You don't have to believe in God to go to heaven
    The Mormon Jesus? http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/heaven_only.html
    The Universalist Jesus? Universalism - Wikipedia

    Looks like I'm going to heaven without believing. Woo hoo! :)
     
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  11. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Oh well, my JW friends will be safe. And some Catholics. And Christian Spiritualists.....
    Fair enough.....
     
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I disagree that it's "unlikely." I believe it to be precisely the opposite. I just don't believe it will happen anywhere near like I think you've suggested it will.

    And that would account for the majority of the people who have ever lived, now wouldn't it? I bet they don't think it's silly.

    Sure it does, if you read it with your mind already made up as to what it says. And if you aren't adverse to look at non-Biblical sources (other early Christian documents), they may convince you even more.
     
  13. syncretic

    syncretic Veteran Member

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    Yes, you have an unBiblical belief concerning this.
    Not knowing of Jesus is different from not accepting Him.

    ...
     
  14. The Holy Bottom Burp

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    Hey Katzpur, you are an LDS Christian, so just a quick question on a technical point. The LDS Church teaches that there are several levels of heaven, the more you achieve in the LDS Church the higher the status (the ultimate being you get to be a deity of your own planet correct?). I've also heard there is a lower grade heaven for atheists, is this correct or just an urban legend?
     
  15. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Well, your questions (and pre-conceptions) are sort of based on fact, but they're also kind of skewed. So, thanks for asking, and here's your answer. (Please excuse me if it's overly wordy; brevity has never been my strongest suit.)

    We believe in a Heaven that I like to describe as not being a "one-size-fits-all" kind of place. In the Bible, Paul speaks of the resurrection of mankind and compares the resulting glory humans can expect to attain to the various heavenly bodies. The highest degree of glory, which he compares to that of the sun, is the Celestial Kingdom, the residence of God. The glory of the next one he compares to the moon; it's known as the Terrestrial Kingdom. The lowest has a glory like that of the stars; we call it the Telestial. (It's the only one of the three that Paul does not refer to by name.) All of these comprise "Heaven," and we believe that almost everyone who has ever lived will end up in one of them. For us, "Hell" is a kind of a temporary state, and almost no one will end up remaining there forever. (I hesitate to elaborate further at this point, but would be happy to if you or anyone else is interested.)

    Where one ultimately ends up is not determined by which church he belonged to on earth. We believe that a great many non-Mormons, non-Christians and yes, even people who spent their entire lives as atheists :eek: could conceivably end up in the Celestial Kingdom. And I'm sure a whole lot of Mormons aren't going to make it there. ;) The thing is (and here's where my comments tie into the OP and to what I said in my first response to it), we don't believe that this life (i.e. mortality) marks the end. As Dieter F. Uchtdorf, one of the top leaders of the Church, put it, "The more we learn about the gospel of Jesus Christ, the more we realize that endings here in mortality are not endings at all."

    We believe that, at death, the spirit leaves the body but does not cease to be a cognizant entity. It continues to exist, to be self-aware, and to be able to learn, grow, and make decisions -- all the way up until the Final Judgment, which may be thousands and thousands of years from now. We are all products of our cultures. Billions lived and died without ever having had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. For reasons known only to God, some rejected His teachings during their lifetimes on earth, but may see things quite differently once their bodies are dead and in the ground, and they are existing in a spirit state. It's not over till it's over -- not for anybody.

    I don't know if my answer has helped or just further confused you, but feel free to tell me if I need to clarify or expound upon anything. (And thank you for asking what we Mormons believe instead of just telling us what we believe. I appreciate that.)
     
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  16. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I can understand why you would think so. LDS belief is not spelled out in much detail in the Bible, but it certainly does not contradict anything the Bible actually does say.

    True. But we cannot possibly begin to know the hearts of those who may have heard of Him but not fully understood the gospel message. Life is not played on a level playing field. A truly loving Father in Heaven would hardly be deserving of our worship if He condemned people to an eternity in Hell without giving them every opportunity to truly learn and understand about their Savior and how His atoning sacrifice could change everything for them. God will not judge anyone unfairly, and what we as human beings may see as "fair" may not be what God sees as "fair."

    I know a good Muslim family from Bosnia. My husband and I were their sponsors/mentors when they first arrived in the U.S. as refugees in the mid-1990's. They had been driven by their homes and farms by Christians who just happened to think their property looked like something they'd like to take over. They lived in a refugee camp for months, and then finally arrived, penniless, in the United States. After they'd been here for a few months, the head of the household learned that his father, who had remained behind in Bosnia, had gone out to his barn one morning. When he opened the barn door, it set off a bomb planted there by Christians, killing him. His son was not even able to return to Bosnia to bury his father.

    You may think that this family should have just been able to look beyond the atrocities committed against his family by people who claimed to be followers of Jesus Christ, but I suspect that God may be more merciful than to expect that of them. Perhaps in the "Spirit World," where they no longer "see through a glass darkly," they may be able to understand the true message of Jesus Christ and embrace Him as their Savior.
     
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  17. Confucian Mormon Buddhist

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    Real question. What qualifies as a chance to accept Jesus? Does that mean:
    1. Just hearing the basic concept the Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior and he died for your sins.
    2. Hearing a testimony from a Christian (or having a visitation from a spirit) that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior and he died from your sins.
    3. Having a more meaningful exposure to Christian doctrines.
    4. Actually coming to accept Christ or at least having a thorough understanding of Christianity, and then rejecting it.

    I ask because I have a hard time imagining that some, say, Afghani who visited the US, heard some street preacher tell them that Christ (who they know nothing about) died for their sins, and then went home and forgot about the episode would go to Hell.

    EDIT: To add on to what Katzpur said, I know a Japanese girl who is delightful. Happy, kind person, friendly to everybody, very generous to her friends. Seemed to have a really good heart. Also, an atheist (kind of a cultural Shinto).

    On the other hand, we have people like General Butt Naked, who ate children before he become a preacher.

    According to a lot of Protestants' doctrine, General Butt Naked will enjoy eternal paradise (he repented, after all) while my Japanese friend will burn in Hell. I would rather be in Hell than serve that kind of evil God.
     
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  18. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Your conclusion rests on a number of unsupported premises.
     
  19. FunctionalAtheist

    FunctionalAtheist Hammer of Reason

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    No sillier than the concept of salvation itself. Or original sin, etc. etc.
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Deeje

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    How are you planning on attaining salvation Mestemia?
    Perhaps there's a "bold empty claims" department in paradise.....you could head it up. [​IMG]