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Only 3 Completely Unholy Things

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Hello RF'ers,

There's an idea among some Jewish thinkers, that almost everything that exists can be used by humans for either good or evil, benefit or harm, construction or destruction, etc... There are only 3 things that exist which are completely unholy for us, which can never be elevated to a noble, virtuous, and constructive purpose. These three things are alluded to in Ezekiel's vision, ( chapter 1 verse 4 ):

וָאֵרֶא וְהִנֵּה רוּחַ סְעָרָה בָּאָה מִן־הַצָּפוֹן עָנָן גָּדוֹל וְאֵשׁ מִתְלַקַּחַת וְנֹגַֽהּ לוֹ סָבִיב וּמִתּוֹכָהּ כְּעֵין הַֽחַשְׁמַל מִתּוֹךְ הָאֵֽשׁ׃

And I looked, and, behold, a stormy wind came from the north, a great cloud, and a fire flaring up, and a brightness was around it, out of its midst, as the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire.
There is speculation on what these three completely unholy things are, but, to the best of my knowledge, no one has concluded what they are.

I propose the following:

Fire Flaring = complete destruction = wrath

Wrath is unique and completely unholy because it is an excessive retaliation. It is not justice where the punishment fits the crime. Wrath says, "you hurt me, I'm going to kill you, your whole family, burn your house down, and erase your name from memory." I cannot imagine a human being using wrath in a noble, virtuous, and constructive manner.
Great Cloud = complete obstruction of vision = false words

False words are unique because these are not half-truths, metaphors, analogies, being polite, etc... These are claims which are absolutley false in each and every way. Examples I've made in a recent thread are: "up is down", "good is evil", "light is darkness". I cannot imagine anything productive about these sorts of statements. They're not poetic; they're not funny; is there anything constructive that comes from a human speaking literal false words? If a person speaks this way, isn't the natural response to stop listening to them? It's a communication failure.
Stormy wind = ( literal translation ) tempest spirit = vain-glory

Vain-glory is a specific type of glory. Vain-glory charges out and conquers for no other purpose other than to validate a person's excessive, self-gratifying, reputation. This is not glory in battle, this is not action motivated by pride in a legitimate superiority. It's source is vainity which is inherently false. Is there any way for a person to channel pure vain-glory in a constructive action?
-------------------------------------------------------------
1) Do you agree that these 3 things are completely and in every possible situation unholy / destructive / without virtue?

2) Are there any other things which you deem to be completely without virtue?

Bonus question: You may have noticed I qualified my proposal saying that these are unholy for people. Arguably, God in the Hebrew bible does all 3 of these things. Is it possible that these three things ( and any others that are proposed ) are somehow holy for God, eventhough they are unholy for people? For this debate I will attempt to take the affirmative position on this, if anyone is interested in discussing it.

Thank you,
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
You may have noticed I qualified my proposal saying that these are unholy for people. Arguably, God in the Hebrew bible does all 3 of these things. Is it possible that these three things ( and any others that are proposed ) are somehow holy for God, eventhough they are unholy for people? For this debate I will attempt to take the affirmative position on this, if anyone is interested in discussing it.
This was one of the first things I noticed. If something is completely unholy, then it is unholy completely, for man and god alike.

Now, the problem that I see with these three things - well, the assumption on what they might mean - is that they're neither holy nor unholy. They simply are. Vainglory is the only one that I could not see any merit or use it; it's just foolish. Slightly different than your examples of it, vainglory is simply boasting without any proof or evidence - talking yourself up, but having nothing to show for it.

Wrath is simply anger applied as retribution or vengeance. It's not necessarily "you wounded me, I will destroy you". Consider a food service worker who keeps silent for years, never rocks the boat for fear of losing their job and being thrust into unemployment, then gets fired for an exceptionally petty reason. Or no reason at all. In wrath they call the Better Business Bureau on rampant nepotism, the Heath Department on several code violations, and OSHA for various workplace hazards that management never wanted to address. Her wrath is justified.

False words, as well, can have their uses. Saying something completely false just to get someone off your back - like someone badgering you with a question for an answer that doesn't really matter. Or even one that people in Customer Service use a lot; fabricating empathy to placate an irate customer so you can get to fixing their issue. Hell, the later is even false words that have positive purpose; if I can BS a customer to get them to stop screaming about how they pay so much for a cellphone that they can't use, then I can get to figuring out that they don't have their data turned on and completely resolve their issue.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If a man looked at his owned life continuance as a spiritual man. There is no comparing.

He'd have to say a human woman. To continue as myself.

Yet as he put comparing bodies against bodies that nothing alike. Now when he looks at the human woman he argues.

As he's just a man. No female human adult woman is his man's life's continuance.

As a new born baby is. A man.

Therefore his spiritual brother realised he'd lost his mind and tried to warn him.

You are three holy terms a father man and baby son man in your own body. The baby man is your creator.

And the holy ghosts are all the coloured spirit gases unnamed. They aren't your father but are holy none the less those colours.

Respect life before your unholy thinking gets it destroyed comparing the living to radiation terms.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Vainglory is the only one that I could not see any merit or use it; it's just foolish.
:thumbsup:
False words, as well, can have their uses. Saying something completely false just to get someone off your back - like someone badgering you with a question for an answer that doesn't really matter. Or even one that people in Customer Service use a lot; fabricating empathy to placate an irate customer so you can get to fixing their issue. Hell, the later is even false words that have positive purpose; if I can BS a customer to get them to stop screaming about how they pay so much for a cellphone that they can't use, then I can get to figuring out that they don't have their data turned on and completely resolve their issue.
This is very interesting to me. I used to work on an IT Helpdesk a long time ago. I'm trying to remember if I ever outright lied, said things which were completely 100% false... I'll have to think about that.

You say that you fabricate empathy, is that 100% true? You sometimes literally have no sense of empathy for the person's frustration?

And regarding BS'ing them, in my experience, BS'ing requires a shred of truth or else it won't be accepted at all.

Can you maybe role play an example?
Wrath is simply anger applied as retribution or vengeance. It's not necessarily "you wounded me, I will destroy you". Consider a food service worker who keeps silent for years, never rocks the boat for fear of losing their job and being thrust into unemployment, then gets fired for an exceptionally petty reason. Or no reason at all. In wrath they call the Better Business Bureau on rampant nepotism, the Heath Department on several code violations, and OSHA for various workplace hazards that management never wanted to address. Her wrath is justified.
For this, I see it as justice not wrath. Maybe anger is the right word for it? If the company has rampant nepotism, and health code violations, and work place safety issues, is it wrong for someone to report that under any circumstances?

Either way, it sounds like this is just a disagreement on the label, "wrath". If so, what word yould you use to describe, "you hurt me, now I will destroy you and yours and your little dog toto, too"?
This was one of the first things I noticed. If something is completely unholy, then it is unholy completely, for man and god alike.
My position on this is, a person simply doesn't know what the all-knowing all-powerful God knows. And perhaps there is a higher purpose in these things which are beyond human comprehension.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Bonus question: You may have noticed I qualified my proposal saying that these are unholy for people. Arguably, God in the Hebrew bible does all 3 of these things. Is it possible that these three things ( and any others that are proposed ) are somehow holy for God, eventhough they are unholy for people? For this debate I will attempt to take the affirmative position on this, if anyone is interested in discussing it.
From Advaita POV:
World is part of Maya (illusion), as are human bodies. Identifying with body, emotions therefore is a delusion

"Seeing" all as Consciousness is key

Holy and unholy are part of Maya also

Questions are also part of duality, Maya.

Understanding non Duality is impossible if holding onto Duality (Maya). Hence the final step is to let go all questions, and Silence "reveals" Truth
@stvdvRF
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
You say that you fabricate empathy, is that 100% true? You sometimes literally have no sense of empathy for the person's frustration?
Yup. There are times where I would much rather tell someone "You made this payment arrangement, you agreed to the dates set, pay your bill or deal with your phone being shut off." But... I can't. So instead I tell them that I'm "so sorry they're having difficulty" (I'm not, truthfully I don't care) and that we'll "find the best course of action for them". Spoiler alert: it's going to be either paying the bill or dealing with restoration fees. But that's what they want to hear, so it placates them while I pretend to try to find better options for them.

Or, another option. "Let me check in the back for that item". We know the stock, we know it's out of stock. But some Karen has the idea in her head that there's this magical land called The Back where we hide all the exact items she's looking for. So we tell her, "Sure, I'll go and check for that item in The Back for you." But I'm not. I'm checking Facebook and TikTok for a good five minutes or so. Call it an unscheduled break before going back out and telling her it's out of stock lol

For this, I see it as justice not wrath. Maybe anger is the right word for it?
Wrath is just anger in action. It can be either just or unjust.

what word yould you use to describe, "you hurt me, now I will destroy you and yours and your little dog toto, too"?
Fury. Maybe vengeance.

My position on this is, a person simply doesn't know what the all-knowing all-powerful God knows. And perhaps there is a higher purpose in these things which are beyond human comprehension.
This would more make their full potential and worthiness to us an unknown. It wouldn't necessarily make them unholy.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
If God is holy , why is he guilty of the three things you mentioned. Genocide against unborn babies, more babies killed in the Bible alone, than every planned parenthood has killed ,since it was founded.

Yet God is pro life.

God tortures people in this life and in the next , often for crimes they never committed, or for minor offensive, and his irrational wrath that killed 70,000 when the King took a census God did not like.

God murders everyone every century for crimes they never committed, and they are born cursed.

That makes no sense.

His jealousy blazes so he kills people for practicing religions where he alone is the center of attention is the epitome of Pride, which was the fall of the Devil, greed, and selfishness, total deadly sins for any human to come remotely close to that kind of hypocrisy and ugly behavior.

God obviously uses false words that he knows are not true , because the Bible says many of the opposite things are all true.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
From Advaita POV:
World is part of Maya (illusion), as are human bodies. Identifying with body, emotions therefore is a delusion
"Seeing" all as Consciousness is key
Holy and unholy are part of Maya also
Questions are also part of duality, Maya.

Understanding non Duality is impossible if holding onto Duality (Maya). Hence the final step is to let go all questions, and Silence "reveals" Truth
(Maya illustrated)
@stvdvRF
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Hello RF'ers,

There's an idea among some Jewish thinkers, that almost everything that exists can be used by humans for either good or evil, benefit or harm, construction or destruction, etc... There are only 3 things that exist which are completely unholy for us, which can never be elevated to a noble, virtuous, and constructive purpose. These three things are alluded to in Ezekiel's vision, ( chapter 1 verse 4 ):

וָאֵרֶא וְהִנֵּה רוּחַ סְעָרָה בָּאָה מִן־הַצָּפוֹן עָנָן גָּדוֹל וְאֵשׁ מִתְלַקַּחַת וְנֹגַֽהּ לוֹ סָבִיב וּמִתּוֹכָהּ כְּעֵין הַֽחַשְׁמַל מִתּוֹךְ הָאֵֽשׁ׃

And I looked, and, behold, a stormy wind came from the north, a great cloud, and a fire flaring up, and a brightness was around it, out of its midst, as the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire.
There is speculation on what these three completely unholy things are, but, to the best of my knowledge, no one has concluded what they are.

I propose the following:

Fire Flaring = complete destruction = wrath

Wrath is unique and completely unholy because it is an excessive retaliation. It is not justice where the punishment fits the crime. Wrath says, "you hurt me, I'm going to kill you, your whole family, burn your house down, and erase your name from memory." I cannot imagine a human being using wrath in a noble, virtuous, and constructive manner.
Great Cloud = complete obstruction of vision = false words

False words are unique because these are not half-truths, metaphors, analogies, being polite, etc... These are claims which are absolutley false in each and every way. Examples I've made in a recent thread are: "up is down", "good is evil", "light is darkness". I cannot imagine anything productive about these sorts of statements. They're not poetic; they're not funny; is there anything constructive that comes from a human speaking literal false words? If a person speaks this way, isn't the natural response to stop listening to them? It's a communication failure.
Stormy wind = ( literal translation ) tempest spirit = vain-glory

Vain-glory is a specific type of glory. Vain-glory charges out and conquers for no other purpose other than to validate a person's excessive, self-gratifying, reputation. This is not glory in battle, this is not action motivated by pride in a legitimate superiority. It's source is vainity which is inherently false. Is there any way for a person to channel pure vain-glory in a constructive action?
-------------------------------------------------------------
1) Do you agree that these 3 things are completely and in every possible situation unholy / destructive / without virtue?

2) Are there any other things which you deem to be completely without virtue?

Bonus question: You may have noticed I qualified my proposal saying that these are unholy for people. Arguably, God in the Hebrew bible does all 3 of these things. Is it possible that these three things ( and any others that are proposed ) are somehow holy for God, eventhough they are unholy for people? For this debate I will attempt to take the affirmative position on this, if anyone is interested in discussing it.

Thank you,

Something I noticed is that you just assumed these things were unholy. Why?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If God is holy , why is he guilty of the three things you mentioned. Genocide against unborn babies, more babies killed in the Bible alone, than every planned parenthood has killed ,since it was founded.

Yet God is pro life.

God tortures people in this life and in the next , often for crimes they never committed, or for minor offensive, and his irrational wrath that killed 70,000 when the King took a census God did not like.

God murders everyone every century for crimes they never committed, and they are born cursed.

That makes no sense.

His jealousy blazes so he kills people for practicing religions where he alone is the center of attention is the epitome of Pride, which was the fall of the Devil, greed, and selfishness, total deadly sins for any human to come remotely close to that kind of hypocrisy and ugly behavior.

God obviously uses false words that he knows are not true , because the Bible says many of the opposite things are all true.
Because men who agreed as the scientist said he was with God first. As a human. Yet first life of man is conscious and innocent and spiritual.

The sun star God removed him consciously from his mans wisdom.

He then caused by human choice involving spatial star returned mass our future life's destruction. He predicted its return for breaking laws of rocks pressure in spatial alignment laws.

As moon as rock and a God O stopped in aligned space pressure laws.

Men therefore put earths mass back in time to space collide with stars mass.

He began murder in his life as the human king lord. Then sacrificed his own life. The baby in a nations life was nearly rural self eradication as father of his own country.

As sun ark crossed into his owned nation as Egyptians once weren't Muslims Islamic or Jewish.

To destroy by father and God in your own nation was by ark ufo fall. Your own baby self.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Because men who agreed as the scientist said he was with God first. As a human. Yet first life of man is conscious and innocent and spiritual.

The sun star God removed him consciously from his mans wisdom.

He then caused by human choice involving spatial star returned mass our future life's destruction. He predicted its return for breaking laws of rocks pressure in spatial alignment laws.

As moon as rock and a God O stopped in aligned space pressure laws.

Men therefore put earths mass back in time to space collide with stars mass.

He began murder in his life as the human king lord. Then sacrificed his own life. The baby in a nations life was nearly rural self eradication as father of his own country.

As sun ark crossed into his owned nation as Egyptians once weren't Muslims Islamic or Jewish.

To destroy by father and God in your own nation was by ark ufo fall. Your own baby self.
Amazing you said that. Earlier today I spoke of a woman Ark, Sun Ark, star by which nothing on earth can survive without.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Something I noticed is that you just assumed these things were unholy. Why?
You're referring to the verse in Ezekiel? They allude to 3 unholy things. It comes from Jeremiah. These 3 things are coming from the north. Evil and destruction come from the north.

Jeremiah 1:14
Jeremiah 4:6
Jeremiah 6:1
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
If God is holy , why is he guilty of the three things you mentioned. Genocide against unborn babies, more babies killed in the Bible alone, than every planned parenthood has killed ,since it was founded.
I honestly don't know the answer.
God tortures people in this life and in the next , often for crimes they never committed, or for minor offensive,
Not in the Hebrew bible.
and his irrational wrath that killed 70,000 when the King took a census God did not like.
I honestly don't know the answer, I'll see what I can find.
God murders everyone every century for crimes they never committed, and they are born cursed.
Show me where it says this please?
His jealousy blazes so he kills people for practicing religions where he alone is the center of attention is the epitome of Pride, which was the fall of the Devil, greed, and selfishness, total deadly sins for any human to come remotely close to that kind of hypocrisy and ugly behavior.
Yes, God is jealous.
God obviously uses false words that he knows are not true , because the Bible says many of the opposite things are all true.
For this, I think it needs to be in the Hebrew bible, not the Christian bible, and honestly, we don't know what God knows, so I don't think it's correct to judge whether the false words are constructive or destructive.
 

Dan From Smithville

What's up Doc?
Staff member
Premium Member
Hello RF'ers,

There's an idea among some Jewish thinkers, that almost everything that exists can be used by humans for either good or evil, benefit or harm, construction or destruction, etc... There are only 3 things that exist which are completely unholy for us, which can never be elevated to a noble, virtuous, and constructive purpose. These three things are alluded to in Ezekiel's vision, ( chapter 1 verse 4 ):

וָאֵרֶא וְהִנֵּה רוּחַ סְעָרָה בָּאָה מִן־הַצָּפוֹן עָנָן גָּדוֹל וְאֵשׁ מִתְלַקַּחַת וְנֹגַֽהּ לוֹ סָבִיב וּמִתּוֹכָהּ כְּעֵין הַֽחַשְׁמַל מִתּוֹךְ הָאֵֽשׁ׃

And I looked, and, behold, a stormy wind came from the north, a great cloud, and a fire flaring up, and a brightness was around it, out of its midst, as the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire.
There is speculation on what these three completely unholy things are, but, to the best of my knowledge, no one has concluded what they are.

I propose the following:

Fire Flaring = complete destruction = wrath

Wrath is unique and completely unholy because it is an excessive retaliation. It is not justice where the punishment fits the crime. Wrath says, "you hurt me, I'm going to kill you, your whole family, burn your house down, and erase your name from memory." I cannot imagine a human being using wrath in a noble, virtuous, and constructive manner.
Great Cloud = complete obstruction of vision = false words

False words are unique because these are not half-truths, metaphors, analogies, being polite, etc... These are claims which are absolutley false in each and every way. Examples I've made in a recent thread are: "up is down", "good is evil", "light is darkness". I cannot imagine anything productive about these sorts of statements. They're not poetic; they're not funny; is there anything constructive that comes from a human speaking literal false words? If a person speaks this way, isn't the natural response to stop listening to them? It's a communication failure.
Stormy wind = ( literal translation ) tempest spirit = vain-glory

Vain-glory is a specific type of glory. Vain-glory charges out and conquers for no other purpose other than to validate a person's excessive, self-gratifying, reputation. This is not glory in battle, this is not action motivated by pride in a legitimate superiority. It's source is vainity which is inherently false. Is there any way for a person to channel pure vain-glory in a constructive action?
-------------------------------------------------------------
1) Do you agree that these 3 things are completely and in every possible situation unholy / destructive / without virtue?

2) Are there any other things which you deem to be completely without virtue?

Bonus question: You may have noticed I qualified my proposal saying that these are unholy for people. Arguably, God in the Hebrew bible does all 3 of these things. Is it possible that these three things ( and any others that are proposed ) are somehow holy for God, eventhough they are unholy for people? For this debate I will attempt to take the affirmative position on this, if anyone is interested in discussing it.

Thank you,
As interpretations of the text, your ideas are pretty good examples of things we should avoid even if they are not unholy. I suppose false words should include what we often call "white lies", but I have doubts on that. I think it would be reserved for lies of consequence. Those that are of malicious intent with the object to falsely gain power over others in whatever form.

Presumably God makes the rules so He can follow them or not, but I think that many times He gets the blame to excuse evil acts by people. That it really wasn't God breaking the rules, but some person doing it and declaring it in the name of God. There are some examples in the Bible that I do not think belong to God, but the perps gave Him credit anyway.
 

Dan From Smithville

What's up Doc?
Staff member
Premium Member
Hello RF'ers,

There's an idea among some Jewish thinkers, that almost everything that exists can be used by humans for either good or evil, benefit or harm, construction or destruction, etc... There are only 3 things that exist which are completely unholy for us, which can never be elevated to a noble, virtuous, and constructive purpose. These three things are alluded to in Ezekiel's vision, ( chapter 1 verse 4 ):

וָאֵרֶא וְהִנֵּה רוּחַ סְעָרָה בָּאָה מִן־הַצָּפוֹן עָנָן גָּדוֹל וְאֵשׁ מִתְלַקַּחַת וְנֹגַֽהּ לוֹ סָבִיב וּמִתּוֹכָהּ כְּעֵין הַֽחַשְׁמַל מִתּוֹךְ הָאֵֽשׁ׃

And I looked, and, behold, a stormy wind came from the north, a great cloud, and a fire flaring up, and a brightness was around it, out of its midst, as the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire.
There is speculation on what these three completely unholy things are, but, to the best of my knowledge, no one has concluded what they are.

I propose the following:

Fire Flaring = complete destruction = wrath

Wrath is unique and completely unholy because it is an excessive retaliation. It is not justice where the punishment fits the crime. Wrath says, "you hurt me, I'm going to kill you, your whole family, burn your house down, and erase your name from memory." I cannot imagine a human being using wrath in a noble, virtuous, and constructive manner.
Great Cloud = complete obstruction of vision = false words

False words are unique because these are not half-truths, metaphors, analogies, being polite, etc... These are claims which are absolutley false in each and every way. Examples I've made in a recent thread are: "up is down", "good is evil", "light is darkness". I cannot imagine anything productive about these sorts of statements. They're not poetic; they're not funny; is there anything constructive that comes from a human speaking literal false words? If a person speaks this way, isn't the natural response to stop listening to them? It's a communication failure.
Stormy wind = ( literal translation ) tempest spirit = vain-glory

Vain-glory is a specific type of glory. Vain-glory charges out and conquers for no other purpose other than to validate a person's excessive, self-gratifying, reputation. This is not glory in battle, this is not action motivated by pride in a legitimate superiority. It's source is vainity which is inherently false. Is there any way for a person to channel pure vain-glory in a constructive action?
-------------------------------------------------------------
1) Do you agree that these 3 things are completely and in every possible situation unholy / destructive / without virtue?

2) Are there any other things which you deem to be completely without virtue?

Bonus question: You may have noticed I qualified my proposal saying that these are unholy for people. Arguably, God in the Hebrew bible does all 3 of these things. Is it possible that these three things ( and any others that are proposed ) are somehow holy for God, eventhough they are unholy for people? For this debate I will attempt to take the affirmative position on this, if anyone is interested in discussing it.

Thank you,
I agree with the idea you introduce with. I don't think most objects or ideas are inherently evil and can be used for either good or ill. Sometimes, even with good intentions we get the opposite result for not thinking things through, but that is the fault of the people and not some property of the object. Now with people that may be less true. Some are probably inherently evil and unholy, whether they started that way or not.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
and his irrational wrath that killed 70,000 when the King took a census God did not like.
OK, so, there's several theories about this. None of them will satisfy you, I'm quite sure. But, th explanation that makes most sense to me is, the Jewish people had been sinning in private. We simply don't know what they were doing. And that's why there is no description of the crime. The census, as you probably know, triggers the accusing angel to evaluate each individual's sins who are included in the census. And to avoid the plague a half-shekel atonement is required per individual, and the half-shekels are counted instead of the people. This is the approved procedure brought by Moses in Exodus.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Amazing you said that. Earlier today I spoke of a woman Ark, Sun Ark, star by which nothing on earth can survive without.
Spaces owned law.

Space....its Not a suns mass. A sun it's not in space it's within itself.

Energy consuming.

It exerted out as cold mass first hotter than inner sun mass ...became sun rock but not the inner body consuming. Stars born by space holes that opened by loss suns body.

A cold suns mass still very hot conceived in space law as suns rock.

Stars.

In lying mens stories it's hence not any woman's false themed idea. Stars aren't feminine.

A star is suns highest coldest mass.

Cold on the outer rim of space pressures and not consuming itself.

A woman was never a star in laws. The sun was a sun.

Baby man proved he named it as theist son...sun. Said it's what he isnt.

Man's owned lesson. It's why I destroyed all life in earth.

So you ask man why hadn't Moses review sun thesis destroyed all life on earth?

He was only converting earths mass leaving a remainder of mass. Claiming mass remainder was a cold suns mass. Not changing laws lying. Change in law is change.

As evil space laws was the unholy space womb. Which Satanists honoured as the mother's warnings. For science practice. Satanism. Why they believe that evil saved them.

To reason evil was knowing what not to do.

It's just scerntific theories. Of just men.

Why did first man in scene of origin science crime A crime A ...America destroy all life?

He theoried about stars mass change of his own biology first.

Then theoried how that advice could change earths mass into darkness no life. He theoried his no life first.

Got what he theoried.

No light no harm he said. Why sun theists were outlawed by simple minded man's theories first. Beliefs only.

It's why theists memories are angered by religious theists who they claim aren't real scientists. Old sun theories life's destruction. Yet real science in laws is all things natural first by awarenesses. So you're angry at your own history a man of science.

Says natural humans sick and tired of human egotism and greed.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Yup. There are times where I would much rather tell someone "You made this payment arrangement, you agreed to the dates set, pay your bill or deal with your phone being shut off." But... I can't. So instead I tell them that I'm "so sorry they're having difficulty" (I'm not, truthfully I don't care) and that we'll "find the best course of action for them". Spoiler alert: it's going to be either paying the bill or dealing with restoration fees. But that's what they want to hear, so it placates them while I pretend to try to find better options for them.

Or, another option. "Let me check in the back for that item". We know the stock, we know it's out of stock. But some Karen has the idea in her head that there's this magical land called The Back where we hide all the exact items she's looking for. So we tell her, "Sure, I'll go and check for that item in The Back for you." But I'm not. I'm checking Facebook and TikTok for a good five minutes or so. Call it an unscheduled break before going back out and telling her it's out of stock lol
OK, thank you. I can see how that's helpful for you, and isn't immediately destructive. Maybe it even keeps the peace. The only lingering question I have is a "what if". What if it becomes known that people at that specific location are dishonest with the customers? Could the false words be a short-sided approach that works in the short term but causes more problems in the long term? You don't need to answer since, if it's only destructive if people find out, then, it probably doesn't belong on the list as completely unholy.

Now I need a new candidate for the "Great Cloud"...

Wrath is just anger in action. It can be either just or unjust.

Fury. Maybe vengeance.
OK, Fury then. What do you think? Is fury completely unholy?
This would more make their full potential and worthiness to us an unknown. It wouldn't necessarily make them unholy.
What I mean is, when God does it ( in theory ) we don't know the full ramifications and intentions, so judgement is not possible. But when humans do it, we do have enough information to judge. And that's why something can be deemed completely unholy for humans, but OK for God. That's my position.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I read your post, and it's interesting, but I guess I'm not really sure how to debate or discuss the meaning of that specific set of symbols. However, I think my last two Tarot drawings might actually be somewhat relevant to the thread. I have lately been drawing in triangular trinities..

The first draw, early in the morning last week, on the icy log piece in the woods, was the knight of cups, with the reversed 10 of swords on top of the triangle, and lastly, the 5 of swords as the right-most leg. This was to describe energies acting in instability. Yesterday, I drew again, asking a certain question about how energies work in stability - out of the 78 cards, I got the same 3 in a different order - this time, it was the upright 10 of swords, with the knight of cups on top, and the 5 of swords, again last.

So we see then, that the same resources are arranged in different ways

The knight in the first draw, I think, allows your 'Great Cloud' to obscure his vision. The 10 of swords is like your great cloud. The sword suit represents the mind. The mind is full of thoughts, and these are like words. A 10 of swords reversed, in the tarot of marseille, makes my triangular draw into having a triangle top that is inverted: the two swords connect at a downward angle. The triangle collapses, because the thought debate is not productive. The knight of cups is like your 'Stormy wind,' though he cannot seem to chase his passion properly

When the the knight of cups is at the top of the triangle, with an upright 10 of swords making up part of the base, then I would posit, that it seems like he has sublimated control over the dueling thoughts, and turned it into an engine, so he can chase the passion of the cup. So the same energy of the knight of cups, becomes like a warm, pleasant wind, or rain. And the cloud (the ten) becomes an articulate looking cloud

As for the 5, it might traditionally be a symbol of change, and this refers to the idea you had about things being uprooted. In the first draw, he is running from the 5, and in the second, it is the very 'rudder' of the triangle, and he uses it steer, as opposed to having it steer him. Man was chased by flame, before he could put it into his engines, and make the machines do things for him
 
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Erebus

Well-Known Member
Hello RF'ers,

There's an idea among some Jewish thinkers, that almost everything that exists can be used by humans for either good or evil, benefit or harm, construction or destruction, etc... There are only 3 things that exist which are completely unholy for us, which can never be elevated to a noble, virtuous, and constructive purpose. These three things are alluded to in Ezekiel's vision, ( chapter 1 verse 4 ):

וָאֵרֶא וְהִנֵּה רוּחַ סְעָרָה בָּאָה מִן־הַצָּפוֹן עָנָן גָּדוֹל וְאֵשׁ מִתְלַקַּחַת וְנֹגַֽהּ לוֹ סָבִיב וּמִתּוֹכָהּ כְּעֵין הַֽחַשְׁמַל מִתּוֹךְ הָאֵֽשׁ׃

And I looked, and, behold, a stormy wind came from the north, a great cloud, and a fire flaring up, and a brightness was around it, out of its midst, as the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire.
There is speculation on what these three completely unholy things are, but, to the best of my knowledge, no one has concluded what they are.

I propose the following:

Fire Flaring = complete destruction = wrath

Wrath is unique and completely unholy because it is an excessive retaliation. It is not justice where the punishment fits the crime. Wrath says, "you hurt me, I'm going to kill you, your whole family, burn your house down, and erase your name from memory." I cannot imagine a human being using wrath in a noble, virtuous, and constructive manner.
Great Cloud = complete obstruction of vision = false words

False words are unique because these are not half-truths, metaphors, analogies, being polite, etc... These are claims which are absolutley false in each and every way. Examples I've made in a recent thread are: "up is down", "good is evil", "light is darkness". I cannot imagine anything productive about these sorts of statements. They're not poetic; they're not funny; is there anything constructive that comes from a human speaking literal false words? If a person speaks this way, isn't the natural response to stop listening to them? It's a communication failure.
Stormy wind = ( literal translation ) tempest spirit = vain-glory

Vain-glory is a specific type of glory. Vain-glory charges out and conquers for no other purpose other than to validate a person's excessive, self-gratifying, reputation. This is not glory in battle, this is not action motivated by pride in a legitimate superiority. It's source is vainity which is inherently false. Is there any way for a person to channel pure vain-glory in a constructive action?
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1) Do you agree that these 3 things are completely and in every possible situation unholy / destructive / without virtue?

2) Are there any other things which you deem to be completely without virtue?

Bonus question: You may have noticed I qualified my proposal saying that these are unholy for people. Arguably, God in the Hebrew bible does all 3 of these things. Is it possible that these three things ( and any others that are proposed ) are somehow holy for God, eventhough they are unholy for people? For this debate I will attempt to take the affirmative position on this, if anyone is interested in discussing it.

Thank you,

I don't view wrath and vainglory in quite so extreme a manner as you present here. Wrath in my view would include entirely justified and proportionate retaliation that was nonetheless motivated by anger. I don't view vainglory as positive but also wouldn't go so far as to say it's unholy. While vainglory is certainly annoying, some people seem to need to be boastful in order to avoid a nervous breakdown.

However, going by the definitions you provided here, I see no benefit to wrath or vainglory. They both seem like pointless destruction of the perpetrator and everybody around them without even the slim justification of catharsis.

I can still see value in saying something entirely false though. Satire frequently involves saying things that are false with the understanding that everybody knows they're false. Also, social graces sometimes require outright lies. I may think somebody's new haircut looks awful but since they seem happy with it, I'll tell them it looks good. Honesty would be more needlessly destructive than lying in that situation.

Perhaps I've misunderstood your view on falsehood here though and I'm interpreting it in a milder manner than you intended.

If I had to pick something else I consider to be entirely destructive, it would be extreme greed. I don't mean the sort of greed that makes you want a nicer car or a bigger house. I mean the kind of greed that has no limits whatsoever and will trample anyone and anything that gets in the way. The kind of greed that makes somebody want to become a trillionaire no matter how much harm they need to cause in order to achieve it.
 
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