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One or Two?

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
No. this verse doesn't speak of forgiveness without judgement and punishment for evil deeds. It says that.. whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Of course, the return of good is good, and evil is evil. But, I think here you need to understand the outcome of both good and evil deeds. Outcome of evil deeds is like a prison made of steel, and outcome of good deeds is like a prison made of gold. But, in both the cases prison is prison (Worldly- Attachments). Prison can NEVER be an eternal life.

What is prison ? Prison is "World" (Including both happiness and sufferings) Eternal life is.. merge back in God/Heaven.

Hence, this verse does NOT provide solution to sufferings of this world. Rather just provide solution to perish/prison. And that solution is eternal life.

Punishment for evil still stand where it is.
good grief man, everyone is already eternal, immortal....as if you could ever attain that, or be given or granted it........really quit misleading folks
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I don't think there's any such provision. The only provision I am aware of is that divine people like Jesus, Buddha etc are capable of doing so, BUT, very strictly in that case they have to take the burden of sins on themselves.

If people forgive sins then they need to have been given authority by God to do that.
Why do you say Buddha is divine?


What I meant is whether God made the law of Karma, as He made other laws. If He did then He has the power to suspend that law and to forgive. If He cannot suspend it then it God does not have power over all things.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The Kesamutti Sutta states (Pali expression in parentheses): Kesamutti Sutta - Wikipedia
  • Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing (anussava),
  • nor upon tradition (paramparā),
  • nor upon rumor (itikirā),
  • nor upon what is in a scripture (piṭaka-sampadāna)
  • nor upon surmise (takka-hetu),
  • nor upon an axiom (naya-hetu),
  • nor upon specious reasoning (ākāra-parivitakka),
  • nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over (diṭṭhi-nijjhān-akkh-antiyā),
  • nor upon another's seeming ability (bhabba-rūpatāya),
  • nor upon the consideration, The monk is our teacher (samaṇo no garū)
Kesamutti: False beliefs hold one by his/her hair (Kesa - hair, Mutti - release). If someone wantsw release, he /she should pay attention to what Buddha said.

You are quoting a scripture that tells you to ignore scripture.
I believe scriptures in which God has shown that He is the author. God showed us that Jesus is whom He claimed by raising Him from the dead, according to witnesses. Jesus showed He is the Messiah by fulfilling Old Testament prophecies concerning Him. God shows us that He is giving His words in the Bible by fulfilling prophecies that were made in the Bible (and a large part of the Bible is prophecy).
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
You are quoting a scripture that tells you to ignore scripture.
All scriptures are not the same. There is a fundamental difference between scriptures of Indian religions and those of Abrahamic religions. I absolutely disregard hocus-pocus, magic and superstition - anything which does not have evidence.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
All scriptures are not the same. There is a fundamental difference between scriptures of Indian religions and those of Abrahamic religions. I absolutely disregard hocus-pocus, magic and superstition - anything which does not have evidence.

The Bible is revelation from God that tells us what is happening on earth, not philosophy from human brains that tries to figure out what might be happening here on earth.
Most of the Bible is set in real history and it's truth is a product partly of the historical veracity of the Bible.
History holds evidence for the truth of Bible prophecies God has told us.
History holds evidence for the truth of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.
If you are an atheist then you, like most atheists on forums, have a bias against these evidences and explain them away.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Well, you are welcome to your beliefs. However, they fail to impress me.

I figured that. :) I figured you preferred human philosophy and materialism.
I saw on another thread that you said Jesus did not set up the Kingdom of God. Just want to say that He did set it up and it exists now in the world but will not be here in all it's fullness till Jesus returns.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Good, keep waiting. Do you think it will come up in your life-time?

The prophecies of Jesus return are being fulfilled and so my life time is not out of the question imo and at 67 I doubt that I have that much longer to live.
The thing about Jesus is that the prophecies from the time of the fist books all point to the coming Messiah and say what He would do. That He would take our sins onto Himself and be the ruler of God's Kingdom etc. He is the one that God has sent and unlike other religions and philosophies it is faith in Him which entitles one to be united to Him and receive eternal life. He did the work and we receive he benefits. God knows that we humans cannot do it ourselves and so provided a saviour not only for the Jews but also for all humanity.
On earth Jesus not only taught people how they should live but also pointed to Himself as the one sent by God, since faith in Him is so important. He did miracles, attested in the gospels and also by the Jews who called Him a miracle worker in later writings. His miracles and fulfilling of prophecies (including rising from the dead) and the receiving of God's Holy Spirit by those who believed all show who He is.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
In my understanding, Self-realization.

I guess that in the meantime, before you become self realised, you are going on faith in what someone said, and hope that it is the truth.
Is it from philosophy or from what God said?
If people claim to have reached that goal I guess it must be a wonderful experience but I wonder if it is really absolute truth or just something beyond what they have experienced.
 
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