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One of the oldest arguements: Is Jesus God?

Ziroc

Member
No*s said:
He's quoting one, not composing one.
What for? If so, he must've not do it while he was not on the cross, cause it'll result of a whole lot of interpretations that people make, and thus be doubtful that Jesus was a God.

No*s said:
If you want to outline my argument, you could at least not mix answers to different questions. I'll do it for you, though.

Major premise: Jesus became man and subjected Himself to that which we are subject to.
Minor premise: Satan, the enemy of men, has dominion and control over humanity.
Conclusion: Jesus subjected Himself to Satan.
I can also use that argument with whole lots of other things, I just have to change the subject from Jesus to someone or something else, and claim that someone or that something subjected him/it self to satan. Still, that does not prove that Jesus is a God. And if I add premise: Man is not God, than we have a conclusion that Jesus is not God.


No*s said:
I can quote isolated Scriptures as well: "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." and again "I and the Father are one." (John 14.9, 10.30). In the latter passage, He said this and it elicted a charge of blasphemy that He was claiming to be God. He did not deny it.
Then that contradicts with John 5:30.

No*s said:
Actually in your post, an English construction, words are frequently further defined by constructs like that. If you wanted to demonstrate two completely separate ideas, then you should not use a comma but a conjunction like and.
Awww c'mon, this is not an english forum course right? :D
 

goraya15

Member
There is no way for jesus to be god, that is just the way that i see it. Instead of going into a long debate with quotes from the bible, i will try to justify by reason.

First, Christians say that Jesus was a perfect man and god. This is not possible in itself, since man is imperfect, and god isn't. It is a paradoxal claim. Still, some say that he combined the natures of both man and god into himself. I say that if God, The "Father" was not a perfect man but just a perfect god, then how was it that jesus surpassed the perfect God the Father by being both a perfect man and god at the same time. It seems that Godship was still evolving or something, trying to attain perfection. This in itself is absurd, since We all know that God is perfect and there is no perfect state left for Him to attain.

Secondly, if jesus and god were both one and the same, as explains the concept of Trinity, then he would have helped equally in the creation of the universe and IN MAINTAINING IT. While on earth, jesus never showed the slightest incling of ever creating anything or maintaining something from nothing, which is one of major characteristics of God.


please reply back if any questions. I will also give quotes from the bible to prove my claim if you need more proof. Thnx.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
Firdaus Mardhatillah said:
What for? If so, he must've not do it while he was not on the cross, cause it'll result of a whole lot of interpretations that people make, and thus be doubtful that Jesus was a God.

He does so to signify the fulfillment of the Psalm. Ps. 22 is about the despair of David and prophetically the work of Christ. Christ came to subject Himself to our condition, and this would include death. It says in the Psalm also:

For the dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

All of that was fulfulled in Christ's passion on the cross. The Psalm ends with:

My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among nations. And all they that shall be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the LORD for a generation. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

This prophecy-psalm begins by saying "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" and Christ's cry on the cross draws the Christian mind to those words.

Firdaus Mardhatillah said:
I can also use that argument with whole lots of other things, I just have to change the subject from Jesus to someone or something else, and claim that someone or that something subjected him/it self to satan. Still, that does not prove that Jesus is a God. And if I add premise: Man is not God, than we have a conclusion that Jesus is not God.

You can, but I didn't use it as an argument that Jesus was God. I said this to answer your question about the temptation of Christ and did not trot it out as proof that Jesus was God. Remember all our interaction has been in response to your questions. I have only answered them.


Firdaus Mardhatillah said:
Then that contradicts with John 5:30.

It contradicts your interpretation of John 5.30. I don't see a contradiction. There is a difference between the text and the interpretation.

Firdaus Mardhatillah said:
Awww c'mon, this is not an english forum course right? :D

You know me. I have to make a counter-point ;).
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
goraya15 said:
First, Christians say that Jesus was a perfect man and god. This is not possible in itself, since man is imperfect, and god isn't. It is a paradoxal claim. Still, some say that he combined the natures of both man and god into himself. I say that if God, The "Father" was not a perfect man but just a perfect god, then how was it that jesus surpassed the perfect God the Father by being both a perfect man and god at the same time. It seems that Godship was still evolving or something, trying to attain perfection. This in itself is absurd, since We all know that God is perfect and there is no perfect state left for Him to attain.

Believe it or not, you have just given some of the fundamental axioms for why I believe in the Incarnation. Man is imperfect. We were designed in the image of God and to grow into His likeness. We failed and distorted that image. We are changing, corrupt, and not as we should be. God cannot attain to a higher state. He is the cause of all being (and in many ways might be above even being). He is unchanging and incorrupt. We were meant for union with the divine, and once that union was broken, only the divine could restore it.

At that point, Christ becomes man and heals our fallen humanity. He restores our corrupted bodies to their original purpose so that we can participate in God, and thus obtain perfection. Because He is incorruptable He subjects Himself to corruption and death, but they cannot take Him, and in the end, He rises still incorrupt and immortal, but having divinized our being. That's how the Early Church and Orthdoxy would build on what you just said. We agree line by line with your paragraph and disagree only on the conclusion ;).

goraya15 said:
Secondly, if jesus and god were both one and the same, as explains the concept of Trinity, then he would have helped equally in the creation of the universe and IN MAINTAINING IT. While on earth, jesus never showed the slightest incling of ever creating anything or maintaining something from nothing, which is one of major characteristics of God.

This is one of the great mysteries of the Incarnation. Christ does uphold all reality with the Godhead. John 1 makes that clear, but the same Gospel also makes clear He also died. This isn't a contradiction, but a paradox. Christ exists outside of time, but He entered our universe and submitted to it. Christ is the God who never sleeps, but Christ slept. The Incarnation is full of such mysteries and paradoxes.
 

Dr. Khan

Member
Hebrews 1:8

But unto the Son he saith, thy throne, O God is a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. The first chapter of hebrews should be meditated onif you can't at first see that Jesus came out from Gods bosom and returned. That the divine quality that is in God is alos always been in his Son. Jesus is the very wisdom of God and proverbs chapter eight should allow you to see that Jesus has always been in God. His flesh did come from the dust of the earth but now it is Glorified. Putting it plainly Hod prepared a body which contained his own soul (mind, will, and emotions) this body was given a name ,Jesus.
Great is the mystery of Godliness , God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, preached unto the gentiles, believed on in the world, recieved up into glory.
I believe that speaks for itself.
 

goraya15

Member
In response to No*s to my earlier post,

Im glad that you agree with my views, but your view, in my opinion has one flaw. When you say that Man was made so that he could ultimately come into union with God and become perfect, isn't that the equivalent of becoming God? If man was made perfect in the beginning, how and why did he begin to degrade? Wouln't man's perfection not allow him to become inferior? It is a well known fact that evolution only continues to gain perfection. It does not backtrack to an earlier state. When evolution stops, it means that the organism has reached its dominant state in its environment. If man had reached his dominant state of perfection, what compelled him to go against nature and become inferior to what he was before?

Plz message back. I enjoy these debates.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
goraya15 said:
In response to No*s to my earlier post,

Im glad that you agree with my views, but your view, in my opinion has one flaw. When you say that Man was made so that he could ultimately come into union with God and become perfect, isn't that the equivalent of becoming God? If man was made perfect in the beginning, how and why did he begin to degrade? Wouln't man's perfection not allow him to become inferior? It is a well known fact that evolution only continues to gain perfection. It does not backtrack to an earlier state. When evolution stops, it means that the organism has reached its dominant state in its environment. If man had reached his dominant state of perfection, what compelled him to go against nature and become inferior to what he was before?

Plz message back. I enjoy these debates.
While No*s is certainly capable of answering this question, I must say that your representation of evolution is quite inaccurate. For one thing, evolution never stops. The basic premise of evolution is survival of the fittest, and the goal of evolution is survival. If the theory of evolution is correct, then if evolution stops, everything in nature would be dead. Evolution never causes an organism to reach perfection - the organism continues in the fight for survival until the end of the cosmos, and depending on whether or not the universe is expanding and is infinate, the big bang will happen again. Evolution also sometimes returns to a previous state as well - take the examples of the moths in Britain before and after the Industrial Revolution.

Before the IR, the moths outside of Britain were the color of tree bark. During and after the IR, the moths were the color of residual coal dust (owls and whatnot ate all of the moths that were of the previous color). After the coal boom of the IR, the trees regained their color and the moths turned the color of the tree bark.

So we see that on every point a false understanding of evolution is the presupposition for your question. Furthermore, you are not considering a fundamental aspect of humanity: the ability to choose. Chrsitians and Jews confess that it is humanity that rebelled against God by thier own choice. Sin is not a matter of evolution, and humans did not evolve into a perfect organism, because a perfect organism does not exist according to the theory of evolution. It may be suitable for a time, but the second law of thermodynamics is ever-present: the law of atrophy. With everything in the cosmos in flux, life continually finds a way. We confess that God somehow made humanity special, and we rebelled against him. We did not reverse our evolution. We rebelled against the One who gave us life- and He later gave us redeemer.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
goraya15 said:
In response to No*s to my earlier post,

Im glad that you agree with my views, but your view, in my opinion has one flaw. When you say that Man was made so that he could ultimately come into union with God and become perfect, isn't that the equivalent of becoming God? If man was made perfect in the beginning, how and why did he begin to degrade? Wouln't man's perfection not allow him to become inferior? It is a well known fact that evolution only continues to gain perfection. It does not backtrack to an earlier state. When evolution stops, it means that the organism has reached its dominant state in its environment. If man had reached his dominant state of perfection, what compelled him to go against nature and become inferior to what he was before?

Plz message back. I enjoy these debates.

Angellous_evangellous has already pointed out the problem with your premise on evolution, but I'd simply like to point it out in my own special way :). Evolution is simply biological adaptation to a changing enviroment. It's not becoming more or less perfect, and as such, cannot be used to evaluate it.

Next, there are two things that are tied together. First, "perfection" does not inherantly mean "without flaw or weakness." To be that, we would have to become uncreated, and I cannot affirm that. It, rather, refers to maturity. Wheat at the time of harvest is called the same word in Greek, but we translate it "mature" or "complete." We will be perfected in that we will be made mature and brought into our full purpose.

On the second point, yes you are quite right about the implications of what I said. The doctrine I described is called theosis. It's the reason behind the presentation of the divinity of Christ in John and the reason behind the Eucharist. Jesus asked in response to being accused of blasphemy "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, ''You are gods?''' If He called those gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? If I am not doing the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I am doing them, even if you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him." (John 10.34-38). St. Athanasius rephrased a very old Christian maxim this way: "God became man so that we might become God."

You are very right and very literal in your analysis of what I'm saying. I do need to offer a brief clarification, though, because it may be misconstrued further than I make it. I am not saying that we become of one essence with God. That is impossible. We are creatures, and we can never become uncreated. God is a being unto Himself, but we are a derivative being. These things can never be changed. Rather, we are like iron (when we are properly formed), and when we are placed into the presence of God it is just as the iron when it is placed in the fire. It glows with the fires heat and light, but if you remove it, it becomes dull and cold again: it cannot generate it on its own. In the same way we become united to God and quite literally share His life, but if we are removed from that, we are still creatures and the power of God grows dim in us. We will never be "God" as anything but an extensions (like branches on a vine ;)).
 

goraya15

Member
once an organism reaches the dominant state in its environment, to the point that it has conquored all forces opposed to it, it does stop evolving. A perfect example of this is the shark. It has stayed the same for almost 60 million years, back from the age of the dinasours. As for your interpretation of the moths, they most likely were polluted from the industrial revolution. They lived in harmony with their predators for centuries befor the revolution. What was the sudden need to turn a different colour, and what was also the need of the owls to suddenly begin consuming more then what was necessary? Anyway, that's just an example.

"Is it not written in your law, 'I said, ''You are gods?''' If He called those gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? If I am not doing the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I am doing them, even if you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him." (John 10.34-38 I believe that you take this verse too literally. I believe that it is more of a parable, that speaks of how Jesus was so close to God that God helped him so much that his very actions were being promoted by God. If you do not take this verse as a parable, and take it literally, then you have to admit that noone would believe in Jesus. This verse says that you should believe in Jesus no matter what because of how he does the work of God. Wouldn't the work of God be all-powerful in nature? Did Jesus ever show any signs of having Godly powers on earth? No. Was he able to strike down his opposers with supernatural powers? No. Mind you, I believe that he was a great prophet, loved by Allah, but the concept that he could be doing the work of God on earth is hard to swallow, considering the lack of proof.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
goraya,

I must say that sharks are a bad example of remaining the same for 60 mil years. Nothing has remianed the same, only some creatures in nature have remained relatively unchanged like alligators, Komodo dragons, elephants, and sharks. However, they remain relatively unchanged when compared to other species like bacteria and viruses and some mammals.

If sharks were not continually evolving, there would not be several different species of shark. Natural selection continues. The second law of theormodynamics shoud have been one of the first things that you learned along with evolution, and it governs nature with an iron fist. Nothing escapes it, and it should open your mind to the bigger picture. Evolution never sleeps. Life continues to struggle until the law of thermodynamics catches up and stuffs it out, which is the inevitable conclusion to the theory of evolution.

Even for humans, evolution and natural selection has never stopped. Scientists think that our little toes and fingers will eventually phase out. African Americans in the US are a hearty group because when they were slaves only the best survived. It goes on and on and on.

O well. If you wish to continue applying a misunderstanding of science to a theological question, there's no stopping you I guess. I have more insights on how science relates to theology at

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11359&highlight=theological+questions
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
goraya15 said:
once an organism reaches the dominant state in its environment, to the point that it has conquored all forces opposed to it, it does stop evolving. A perfect example of this is the shark. It has stayed the same for almost 60 million years, back from the age of the dinasours. As for your interpretation of the moths, they most likely were polluted from the industrial revolution. They lived in harmony with their predators for centuries befor the revolution. What was the sudden need to turn a different colour, and what was also the need of the owls to suddenly begin consuming more then what was necessary? Anyway, that's just an example.

No, that's not true. Sharks still change, they just don't change much, and we have very limited evidence since very little of them remains over time. It wasn't that long ago that there were massive sharks the size of buses. If sharks had reached an optimal design, then we wouldn't have species in the relatively recent past that went extinct due to an inability to adapt to the changing enviroment, but that's what happened.

goraya15 said:
"Is it not written in your law, 'I said, ''You are gods?''' If He called those gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? If I am not doing the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I am doing them, even if you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him." (John 10.34-38 I believe that you take this verse too literally. I believe that it is more of a parable, that speaks of how Jesus was so close to God that God helped him so much that his very actions were being promoted by God. If you do not take this verse as a parable, and take it literally, then you have to admit that noone would believe in Jesus. This verse says that you should believe in Jesus no matter what because of how he does the work of God. Wouldn't the work of God be all-powerful in nature? Did Jesus ever show any signs of having Godly powers on earth? No. Was he able to strike down his opposers with supernatural powers? No. Mind you, I believe that he was a great prophet, loved by Allah, but the concept that he could be doing the work of God on earth is hard to swallow, considering the lack of proof.

A parable is a story used to make a moral/theological point. This wasn't a parable, but a citation of Scripture to make a point. It is in no way a parable. He made this point after being accused of making Himself God, and the answer He gave was interpreted as blasphemy. He was accused of blasphemy, and responded with the statement I gave, and His audience interpreted the response as blasphemy also. Jesus was pretty clear.

In reference to the works you mention, we could always come up with another, bigger feat. Unless He creates the universe, then there will always be a bigger feat you could call upon. Of course, John 1 makes Him the creator of the universe also ;).
 

andddd

Member
Man..All i have seen is the same stuff repeted.. y is every1 soo stuborn!!?? Plz stick to reality folks!!We are humans with brains.
A son of God cannot be human. If his messege was to be sent to human kind..y hasnt he sent it to a real human instead of a god? y didnt God just send a messenger instead of his son..THAT WOULD seriously make more sence. Instead of thinking that god came down, y not a real human?? This is wayy too un REALISTIC!!
 

Ziroc

Member
I know. For Christians, its just the matter of faith. Believe. No matter how it doesn't make sense, they just have to believe it. But in Islam, we have proof and faith. So proof really matters to Islam, but not to Christians.
 

may

Well-Known Member
andddd said:
almifkhar..ur opinion seems the best so far.
Jesus did say that God was to only be worshiped. Jesus is not the son of God. He claimed that he was the messenger of God..not the son of God.. several ppl changed the bible thinking that their interpretations are correct.

After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him. Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved(matt 3;16-17)sounds to me like Jehovah was saying jesus was his son.

And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him(luke 9; 35)and again .

"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him(john 3;16-17).

He who did not even spare his own Son but delivered him up for us all, why will he not also with him kindly give us all other things(romans 8;32) we should honer Jesus and listen to him because he is Gods first born son and jehovah God tells us to listen to him.

But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman and who came to be under law(galatians4;4)

 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
As May wrote,
And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: "This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him(luke 9; 35)and again .(May Quote)

To you skeptics who refuse to see.
The creator of the universe, should you limit him by saying he can not create one human sperm cell!!! Yeshua, the son of God, born of woman, born under the law, born mortal, died for man's sin and was resurrected, now IMMORTAL, at the right hand of the father, worthy of Praise as the SON of God, the impress image of the father, soon to come as King of Kings and Lord of Lords to rule with a ROD of Iron. All will be obedient to his words!
Jn.10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, "You are gods"‘?35 "If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),36 "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

OH YEAH! there was a vast conspiresy that put all those words in the bible. You know to control the masses. Pigs can fly. Waterfront property in Arizona. and all that jazz.
 

hanessah

Member
there seems to be no objection on the Father or Holy Spirit. It 's the part of Jesus in the Trinity.
Jesus is the messenger prophised to come in the OT. key word here - messenger. we are all sons of God created by God, He knew us 'before the womb'. We all are to be messengers of His Word. If you believe in Jesus this makes up your belief of a Holy Trinity, If it be Mohammed as the messenger this would make your Trinity. Since the Bible commands us to "Have no other god before Me" , Why would Jesus expect us to go against this (or any) commandment. Yet, as a chosen messenger by God, Jesus was given the knowledge that we are here seeking which is what we are to be doing "Seek wisdom " . After Jesus was baptized,' suddenly a voice came from heaven saying, "This is my beloved SON, in whom I am well pleased" ' also in Mamtthew Jesus' words. Whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 12 25-30 Jesus thanks God . later in 23: One is your Teacher, THE CHRIST and you are all bretheren. Do not call anyone on earth father . For ONE is your Father , He who is in heaven.
After Jesus was resurectedhe said to his disciples " all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Go and make disciples of all nations and baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. teach them to observe all thing I have commanded you.
Again , I don't see where Jesus makes any claim to be Himself, God .
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
hanessah, you claim to be a Christian, the mainline of Christianity would disagree with you, as trinity is a requirement to be Christian in the view of trinitarians. Trinity demands that God be three parts of one God. In other words Jesus is God!---------------------------(not!)
Therefore you need to change your profile to something besides Christian! LOL.
 
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