One God (Islam) Or Trinity (Christianity)

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Show me where in the bible Moses preaches/ teaches submission to allah! He never does, he teaches submission and obedience to the laws of Jehovah and points to the coming of another Prophet who the Jews were to heed.

Jehovah is a latin word and Moses did not speak latin. So where did this title name come from. Secondly The word Allah is similar to the Jewish term used. There is not J in hebrew. So when you refer to the prophet Moses how do you justify the term when he himself never used it. And he teaches it in Exodus you know the ten commandments. Duh! To worship only one god but God. What is your evidence.

 

[writer]

99 the catholic church was just the first and major church to actually rise in power.
Roman Catholicism's not the first church. The NT church is.
I'd also dispute that Catholicism's "first major" whatever that mite mean

and they did this with wealth and violence.
That's a sad characteristic of Catholicism

nicean council. they were all of different "christian" groups.
Duz the gentleposter mean churches by "groups" here?

it is from this group that it was "voted" by men wether or not the churches at that time were going to accept the idea of the trinity.
The 3-1 God's not an idea. But a person. Nor did His Son wait to reveal Himself to His Body until AD 325

the two major ideas at the time were that Jesus was God and not man at all, and the other was that Jesus was not God, but he was more than just a man.
To the contrary: the major "idea" among believers, such as Athanasius and the apostles in the NT, both before and after that time, was that Jesus's both, simultaneously, and completely, God 'n man

end result was that Jesus was 100%man/100%God. The accepted belief today of the trinity.
This was, just like I Am is, the second the Holy Spirit fertilized the egg in the virgin's womb: Jesus, Christ. And which the NT (and O) also communicate effectively

it is up to you to find the truth.
I Am the truth, said Jesus (Jn 14)

101 Jehovah is a latin word and Moses did not speak latin. So where did this title name come from.
From translation. If you've heard of that. Cuz people on earth don't all speak the same language, ever since Babel, better communication across languages, whether by speech or writing, involves translation.
"Jehovah," from my reading, was first invented as a term by Jews who, contrary to their Scriptures, superstitiously avoided pronouncing the Hebrew word and name for God in Exo 3 and the rest of the OT: "Yahveh" perhaps. "He Is." Related to "I Am," a form of the personal pronoun with the verb "is," "To be."
Which very much makes sense, as in Exo 3. Since God.....is. And needs no help being

There is not J in hebrew. So when you refer to the prophet Moses how do you justify the term when he himself never used it.
Moses spoke not Latin or English, or French or German. Or Spanish

Duh!
Duh what?

 

[faithofabraham]

i didnt explain myself well enough.

Jesus came to earth. and taught. he handed his teaching to his disciples.
From the get go there arose false prophets and false teachers.
I do not believe that at any time, Jesus, his disciples, or the first churches(gathering of people) that were set up, ever taught or believed that Jesus was or is God. Or that God was man.

Roman Catholicism's not the first church. The NT church is.
I'd also dispute that Catholicism's "first major" whatever that mite mean

I agree. But what I said was they were the first church to come into power. they ruled over the people and the rulers of those people.

and they did this with wealth and violence.
That's a sad characteristic of Catholicism

Let history speak for itself. It speaks nothing of catholics today.

it is from this group that it was "voted" by men wether or not the churches at that time were going to accept the idea of the trinity.
The 3-1 God's not an idea. But a person. Nor did His Son wait to reveal Himself to His Body until AD 325

I would disagree here. Of the two ideas going into the council, neither one believed that Jesus was God and Man fully.
And considering that I dont believe the Word of God teaches this, then I would say it was and is an idea.

To the contrary: the major "idea" among believers, such as Athanasius and the apostles in the NT, both before and after that time, was that Jesus's both, simultaneously, and completely, God 'n man

Not in any place I have read in the bible.

end result was that Jesus was 100%man/100%God. The accepted belief today of the trinity.
This was, just like I Am is, the second the Holy Spirit fertilized the egg in the virgin's womb: Jesus, Christ. And which the NT (and O) also communicate effectively

I wonder why people get hung up on this so often. Read the story of John the baptist. very much the same as the story of Jesus' birth.
Also it says that before the world was created there was a void. and from this void God created the earth. God used his power to create the earth. God then created a man from this earth. No human father or mother invloved. Is Adam also God.?
God uses his power to create life. Why does it matter what the situation is?

it is up to you to find the truth.
I Am the truth, said Jesus (Jn 14)

The Jews also thought Jesus was stating that he was God. Yet time and time again Jesus told them that they were neither hearing or understanding him. Odd reaction if they were actually getting what Jesus was talking about. It is the same truth that the Jews heard that you hear today.

I need to start using verses. Too many opinions spoken. Sorry about that.

FOA

 

[James the Persian]

faithofabraham,

Did you read my post? If not, please go back a page and do so because you're still spouting the same ignorant rubbish about the Council of Nicea that I corrected there. You really need some better sources because your understanding of the early Church is way off base. May I suggest you try reading some of the ante-Nicene Fathers in your search for your original Monist Christians? I wish you luck.

James

 

[*Paul*]

Jehovah is a latin word and Moses did not speak latin. So where did this title name come from. Secondly The word Allah is similar to the Jewish term used. There is not J in hebrew. So when you refer to the prophet Moses how do you justify the term when he himself never used it. And he teaches it in Exodus you know the ten commandments. Duh! To worship only one god but God. What is your evidence.

I was not attempting to speak hebrew, it's the same way we pronounce Joshua and Josiah with a J, I am free to speak the Word of God with my native tongue (thanks to the reformers), I have the word of God in English and do not need to defend that.
Whatever name you want to call the Christian God, and Jehovah is an acceptable translation of God's Name, it is clear that He is not the allah of the koran, (which was the original point to this discussion) their characteristics are different. This is how you know God, not just by His name but by His personality and the things HE says please Him and the the things He attaches to the integrity of His Name or honour.
Knowing His name doesn't mean you know Him for Himself, I know tony Blairs name but I don't know him.
Can allah be really known whilst you live on this earth?

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

I was not attempting to speak hebrew, it's the same way we pronounce Joshua and Josiah with a J, I am free to speak the Word of God with my native tongue (thanks to the reformers), I have the word of God in English and do not need to defend that.
Whatever name you want to call the Christian God, and Jehovah is an acceptable translation of God's Name, it is clear that He is not the allah of the koran, (which was the original point to this discussion) their characteristics are different. This is how you know God, not just by His name but by His personality and the things HE says please Him and the the things He attaches to the integrity of His Name or honour.
Knowing His name doesn't mean you know Him for Himself, I know tony Blairs name but I don't know him.
Can allah be really known whilst you live on this earth?

How in the world can you come to the conclusion that the "God" of the Bible, The Torah and the Q'uran are not the same guy? Allah is simply the arabic word for god. Arab speaking Christians refer to God as Allah. The Q'uran references Abraham, the father of the THREE ABRAHAMIC (get it?) FAITHS of Judaism, Christianity and Islam to put them in proper historical order.

Jehovah, Yaw-weh, Allah, different languages, not a different diety. I really would love to read your explanation of how the Q'uran can acknowledge Abraham and Jesus as prophets and be written by a man claiming to be the final successor prophet of Abraham and Jesus and say that the God that Muhammad was writing about is a different person/diety than the god of Jesus and Abraham. I wait with bated breath and am prepared to be amazed by your response.

B.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I was not attempting to speak hebrew, it's the same way we pronounce Joshua and Josiah with a J, I am free to speak the Word of God with my native tongue (thanks to the reformers), I have the word of God in English and do not need to defend that.

Sure but do not say Allah is not the God of the Christians when moses spoke a language very similar to arabic as did Issa or Jesus with the J.

Whatever name you want to call the Christian God, and Jehovah is an acceptable translation of God's Name, it is clear that He is not the allah of the koran, (which was the original point to this discussion) their characteristics are different.

How so? and what is your evidence that Allah is not the same God of the Bible. You claim Jehovah is accepted translation. That funny none of the Prophets spoke latin. They either spoke Hebrew or Arabic which are two semitic languages.

This is how you know God, not just by His name but by His personality and the things HE says please Him and the the things He attaches to the integrity of His Name or honour.
Knowing His name doesn't mean you know Him for Himself, I know tony Blairs name but I don't know him.
Can allah be really known whilst you live on this earth?

We know him by his attributes. The Most Mericiful, the compassionate, the Originator, the Creator, etc. I never said you know God by his name. Its just you claim a name that was given to god by none of the people he chose to deliver his message. And if you are a JW the founder of your belief is not a prophet. Do you even know who started the JW? It wasn't Jesus or Moses. so why call him something other than what the prophets call him. Anyways this is just word games. By the way the word for what the hebrews and muslims call God in english is God. Jehovah as I said is not an english word.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

How in the world can you come to the conclusion that the "God" of the Bible, The Torah and the Q'uran are not the same guy? Allah is simply the arabic word for god. Arab speaking Christians refer to God as Allah. The Q'uran references Abraham, the father of the THREE ABRAHAMIC (get it?) FAITHS of Judaism, Christianity and Islam to put them in proper historical order.

Jehovah, Yaw-weh, Allah, different languages, not a different diety. I really would love to read your explanation of how the Q'uran can acknowledge Abraham and Jesus as prophets and be written by a man claiming to be the final successor prophet of Abraham and Jesus and say that the God that Muhammad was writing about is a different person/diety than the god of Jesus and Abraham. I wait with bated breath and am prepared to be amazed by your response.

B.

Well said. May Allah reward you.

 

[writer]

103 I do not believe that at any time, Jesus, his disciples, or the first churches(gathering of people) that were set up, ever taught or believed that Jesus was or is God. Or that God was man.
Not only He is, 'n they did; so too did His prophets 500 'n 600 years prior.
Unto us a child's born, His name'll be called Mighty God, Eternal Father.
From you Bethlehem Ephrathah, there'll come forth to Me He who's to be Ruler in Israel; and His goings forth are from the days of eternity

they were the first church to come into power
Historically i'd dispute that since i don't find Catholicism as we know it, with a Papacy whose rule's taken in the west, existin until 600 with Gregory 1

Of the two ideas going into the council, neither one believed that Jesus was God and Man fully.
Thas inaccurate

I dont believe the Word of God teaches this
The Word was God. The Word became flesh

Not in any place I have read in the bible.
Mebbe u'the gentleman's yet to read John 1:1, 14

Read the story of John the baptist. very much the same as the story of Jesus' birth.
Not identical. The former's birth's miraculous of God. The latter's not only "miraculous;" part of His very essence is God

I wonder why people get hung up on this so often
Cuz's He's wonderful (cf Isa 9:6)

it says that before the world was created there was a void. and from this void God created the earth.
To the contrary: God's not void. Nor a void.
2ndly: the earth Became void in Gen 1:2. After Gen 1:1.
He did not create it waste, but He formed it to be inhabited (Isa 45:18)

No human father or mother invloved. Is Adam also God.?
God's uncreated. Without beginnin 'n end.
Adam's created

God uses his power to create life. Why does it matter what the situation is?
God duzn't create eternal life. He Is eternal life (Jn 1:4; 11:25; 14:6; Eph 4:18; 1 Cor 15:45)

The Jews also thought Jesus was stating that he was God.
Thas accurate

Yet time and time again Jesus told them that they were neither hearing or understanding him.
Never on that point. Rather He both explained and strengthened it.
Jn 20:28-29; 17:20-23; 10:30-38; 8:24, 28, 58; 5:17-19; etc

106 How in the world can you come to the conclusion that the "God" of the Bible, The Torah and the Q'uran are not the same guy?
Cuz the Bible 'n Q'uran contradict

The Q'uran references Abraham, the father of the THREE ABRAHAMIC (get it?)
Get the "plagiarism" or attempted plagiarism 'n explicit contradictions?
Yes

historical order.
That should help u

Yaw-weh, Allah, different languages, not a different diety.
Depends what u've seen. Depends what you mean by "Allah." If u mean the bare word: sure

how the Q'uran can acknowledge Abraham and Jesus as prophets and be written by a man claiming to be the final successor prophet of Abraham and Jesus and say that the God that Muhammad was writing about is a different person/diety than the god of Jesus and Abraham. I wait with bated breath and am prepared to be amazed by your response.
That mite b fair. Cuz i'm amazed by your ignorance. Have u read any of either of the books? The Koran explicitly denies Jesus's Son o' God. God. That He was crucified and resurrected. Which is why He came (per the Bible). It presents a God of lust (eg 70 virgins after death...), kinda like Mormonism. Which's not the God of the NT 'n O. It, and Mohammed's history, bespeaks spread of a "faith" by politics and war. Which's absolutely contrary to Jesus' kingdom in the NT ("My kingdom's not of this world," Jn 18). The Koran takes Israel's history, 3-2 millenia after the fact and gives it to Ishmael

107 what is your evidence that Allah is not the same God of the Bible.
Apparently your Allah's not. Pleze c para above

You claim Jehovah is accepted translation. That funny none of the Prophets spoke latin. They either spoke Hebrew or Arabic which are two semitic languages.
U're under no obligation to accept it. Pleze suggest a better one. Mebbe it is.
In any case, to answer the profound comment:
Translation's into other language(s). Not your own.
That's why they call it "translation"

I never said you know God by his name.
God said so. To Moses (Ex 3)

this is just word games.
Which u initiated

Jehovah as I said is not an english word.
To the contrary: "Jehovah" is an English word. As r alot of "foreign" words. And's in an English dictionary. Whatever's its origin

 

[*Paul*]

Here is one obvious difference:

Ps 2v6-7: Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Does allah have a son?

23.91: Never did Allah take to Himself a son, and never was there with him any (other) god -- in that case would each god have certainly taken away what he created, and some of them would certainly have overpowered others; glory be to Allah above what they describe!

What about Love:

2.190: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
2.276: Allah does not bless usury, and He causes charitable deeds to prosper, and Allah does not love any ungrateful sinner
22.38: Surely Allah will defend those who believe; surely Allah does not love any one who is unfaithful, ungrateful.
28.76: Surely Qaroun was of the people of Musa, but he rebelled against them, and We had given him of the treasures, so much so that his hoards of wealth would certainly weigh down a company of men possessed of great strength. When his people said to him: Do not exult, surely Allah does not love the exultant;
4.107: And do not plead on behalf of those who act unfaithfully to their souls; surely Allah does not love him who is treacherous, sinful;
31.18: And do not turn your face away from people in contempt, nor go about in the land exulting overmuch; surely Allah does not love any self-conceited boaster;
3.32: Say: Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers.

God:
There is no place in the bible where you will find the phrase God does not Love or The LORD does not love.
1Jn 4v8: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love
Ps 145v8-9: The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.
The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
Jn 3v16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Jews:
God:
Deut 10v14-15: Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.
Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
Deut 7v6-8: For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt

Allah:
62.6: Say: O you who are Jews, if you think that you are the favorites of Allah to the exclusion of other people, then invoke death If you are truthful.

Jerusalem:
1Kgs 11v36: And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.
2Chron 6v6: But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be there; and have chosen David to be over my people Israel.
Ps 135v21: Blessed be the LORD out of Zion, which dwelleth at Jerusalem. Praise ye the LORD.
Jer 33v15-16: In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.
Zech 12v2-3: Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zech 12v9-10: And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Search: for the phrase "jerusalem" within Entire Koran
Your search yielded no results.

 

[shema]

=) 3=1? But At the time of Moses it was 1?

Not true. Christians believe that Jesus is God's word and the word was with God at the begining. Which was before he created the world.
[/quote] And how can God have partners? [/quote]
Simple. God has no partners. He can be God all by himself.
[/quote] How can he have a son? [/quote]
Above all people, You should know. God can do anything he wants. not only does he have a son, but he has many children. and Im one of them.
[/quote] Think of it.. and above that kill his son to forgive our sins? [/quote]
actually the townspeople killed him, but he didn't stay dead. he rose 3 days later. so death means nothing to Jesus.
[/quote] If im ur boss at work and u steal i go and kill my son so i wont fire you? [/quote]
Well that probably wouldn't happen because the boss would be fully human. So he would probably fire the thief. then go home and beat on his wife or something.
so God really can't be compared to somebody's boss.
[/quote] How can God be mercifull and Just and at the same time kill and torment his son to forgive our sins? [/quote]
he didn't kill his son.
[/quote] 1=1.. Jesus peace be upon him = Gods messenger and prophet .. [/quote]
You see, as long as you are looking at things from a humanistic stand point. it will always be hard to understand God and his will/word. The reason why christians believe that The father Son and Holy Spirit are one because God is a spirit. The spirit of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit cannot ever be divided.
The reason God came to earth as a baby is because God cannot go against his own word. The bible says that every person has to come through a woman's womb. so if he came down here, then he has to come through a womans womb also. if that means growing up as a child then so be it. However The reason he came in the first place is to make atonement for what Adam did. He sinned then died. He also caused everybody else to die. The only way to reverse this was to have another man not sin. and by not sinning and dying, he caused everybody else to have the chance to live forever. If he had not raised up from the dead, This all would have been in vain but he rose so God's will was fulfilled to all who believe.
When he was crucified, he traded his righteousness, health, and life for our unrighteousness, sickness, and death.