One God (Islam) Or Trinity (Christianity)

[Peace]

To me, and I certainly do not mean to offend anyone, but the Christian Trinty = the 99 names/attributes of Allah. Same idea, differnt flavor. Is this that complex a concept? You are all welcome to tell me just how very wrong I am, but it would just seem reasonable. They are all aspects of the "one", as it were.

The two are completely different Paul. The 99 names/attributes of Allah are too simply the names of Allah, the One God and Creator, that describes His attributes. However, the concept of Trinity is completely different.

Peace

 

[michel]

So who was Jesus talking to when he was on the cross. And who is this seperate individual Jesus taught his disciples to pray to. You know the lords prayer. And how could as the bible claims God send Jesus yet be him all at the same time. We can meet in the middle if you could explain some of these things to a muslim it does not make sense. Jesus is God yet he was talking to Himself when he was on the cross. He is God the father yet the Father is in heaven when he is clearly on earth. I think this is where the confusion comes in. There are many verses in the bible some of which have been abrogated and interperpolated as your scholars say. There are other verses that contradict the claim of this.

I will try to use an example (made up) which might help you understand.

Imagine God as being 'a pool (as in swimming pool) full of souls (the souls appear as water). Imagine then that God detaches from himself a ' large Jug of water' (a 'hunk' of his soul), and allows that soul to inhabit a newly born Baby in our world; that baby is Christ.

Christ is a part of God.....when he rose to heaven on the third day, "To sit at the right hand of God" (which actually can be interpreted as meaning that he had the same powers as God).....which he would have, being a part of God.......

Does that make any sense at all?

 

[dawny0826]

The difference is while you are talking to your parents you are at the SAME TIME YOUR PARENTS.

God is one God but you say God is Jesus who spoke about himself to his people. He raised himself up to himself. He prayed to himself. He sent the disciples out with Himself(the holy spirit) with the permission from himself.

Believe me I understand where you are coming from. But the text you have is the issue at hand. Why are many of more ancient pagan philosophies similar. Why was Emperor Constantine a worshipper of Mithras another triune "savior of man-god". Why is the ancient story of the egyptian Sun God Osiris story almost to the letter identical to the story the Christians believe the to the story of Chirst. Why are the text transmission of events not the same. Why do the witnesses give different testimony. I'll give you an example what were the last words of Jesus on the cross before he died. Who were the witnesses at the grave. What about the words he said before Pilat. Why are there over 250,000 different manuscipts no two the same written by UNKNOWN authors. Why are the public not allowed scrutiny of the text. What are your churches hiding. This and many other issues. I do not doubt your conviction nor your understanding based on what you have researched. But from the scholarly viewpoint the validity in what is now know as the bible depending on the version is skewed. You have to many different interpretations from too many unknowns. You have no way of knowing what they did to the text. You can only see it has been changed from analyzing the different texts they have. Read Bart Ehrmans book on the orthodox corruption of scripture or any of the books by Bruce Metzger. They are scholars of the text. Ehrman speaks greek and latin. The evidence is there you just have to be honest enough to say hey there is a problem here. Its not your fault nor whoever taught you this. The fault lies to whoever compiled it because they knew what they were doing.

No, it's clear from your response that you don't understand where I'm coming from. And that's fine.

I'm not going to continue to repeat myself. You either understand me or you don't. You either desire to understand or you don't.

My responses aren't going to change. That's the issue at hand.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I will try to use an example (made up) which might help you understand.

Imagine God as being 'a pool (as in swimming pool) full of souls (the souls appear as water).

I am not sure I understand So is God a vessel to carry the souls(like a storage container) or is he the creator of souls.

Imagine then that God detaches from himself a ' large Jug of water' (a 'hunk' of his soul), and allows that soul to inhabit a newly born Baby in our world; that baby is Christ.

Then why are we not all Gods then.

Christ is a part of God.....when he rose to heaven on the third day, "To sit at the right hand of God" (which actually can be interpreted as meaning that he had the same powers as God).....which he would have, being a part of God.......

Does that make any sense at all?

So he is not all God but part of God. Is that why he never called himself God because he was never fully God. Because that makes more sense if I am understanding you correctly. But it still does not change the fact that Christians believe he is God (fully), He prays to himself calls on himself, God has to eat, sleep, use the bathroom as Jesus did. He sent himself. He is greater and equal to himself. God the eternal died. And called on himself and then raised himself up to his self . you said he had the same powers of God. No God allowed him to do it. Or did He allow hiself to do it. Jesus says he has no power except from the one who sent him. So God says he has no power except from himself who sent himself.

I am really trying to understand you but if he is just a part then how can he fully be God. The bible says God is one. There is nothing like him. He created the heavens and the earth. Jesus cursed a fig tree. Why? If he was God the tree would have given him whatever he asked. If he was God he would have created it.

Off the topic can people hurt God. In your understanding of who god is.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

To me, and I certainly do not mean to offend anyone, but the Christian Trinty = the 99 names/attributes of Allah. Same idea, differnt flavor. Is this that complex a concept? You are all welcome to tell me just how very wrong I am, but it would just seem reasonable. They are all aspects of the "one", as it were.

whereas the Christians claim 1 in 3 the trinity. These are 3 seperate entities being all at the same time each other. The attributes are the physical description of the same being. The most Merciful Allah, the Most Just Allah, The Most compassionate Allah, etc. These describe the majesty, might, power, wisdom, mercy, graciousness, of the one creator. It is very different. Let me give you an example ask a Christian to describe God to you. Ask him to describe Jesus. Some will start describing things like his skin color or eye color or hair color how he dresses. We describe Allah by the attributes because we do not know what He looks like. It is so you can see and feel who the Creator is through verbal description.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Constantine converted to Christianity from the Sol Invictus cult, not Mithraism. He certainly did not believe in a triune God or a man-god as a pagan. In fact, he also favoured the Arians (who opposed the Trinity) at Nicea and was eventually baptised by an Arian bishop. There is absolutely no way that Constantine could have been responsible for the Trinity. Even if he had been involved in Mithraism your point would hold no water as, whilst they did believe in a dying and resurrecting man-god, there is no hint of a Trinity in Mithraism.

James

I never said he was responsibe for the trinity how can you be responsible for an idea much more ancient then yours. Sol Invictus cult is a "sun worship" cult and mithras is a sun God to not just the romans but the persians as well. They had a huge variety of different Gods. And it was no suprise that the same characteristics of Jesus can be applied to many pagan Gods. Such as Mithras, Osiris, Krishna, Oden, Tammuz, Baal, Adonis, Attis etc. Is not the theory of a resurrected man-god the trinity. God came down as his son and saved the world through his spirit. This is the trinity. keep studying the mystery religions and you will see insha Allah.

 

[YmirGF]

whereas the Christians claim 1 in 3 the trinity. These are 3 seperate entities being all at the same time each other. The attributes are the physical description of the same being. The most Merciful Allah, the Most Just Allah, The Most compassionate Allah, etc. These describe the majesty, might, power, wisdom, mercy, graciousness, of the one creator. It is very different. Let me give you an example ask a Christian to describe God to you. Ask him to describe Jesus. Some will start describing things like his skin color or eye color or hair color how he dresses. We describe Allah by the attributes because we do not know what He looks like. It is so you can see and feel who the Creator is through verbal description.

Personally, I have no difficulty whatsoever with the concept of the Trinity. In my warped view of reality the Trinity boils down to this:

God as Father = the internal non-physical aspect of God
God as son = the external, physical manifestation of God.
Holy Spirit = the glue that binds the parts.

Based on my own subjective view of reality, this would seem to me to be a rather appropriate description of God. It is most certainly as valid as any other viewpoint. So, am I missing something? Granted I do not profess to be a Christian, so I might not be understanding this very well. Christians, what say you?

 

[dawny0826]

Personally, I have no difficulty whatsoever with the concept of the Trinity. In my warped view of reality the Trinity boils down to this:

God as Father = the internal non-physical aspect of God
God as son = the external, physical manifestation of God.
Holy Spirit = the glue that binds the parts.

Based on my own subjective view of reality, this would seem to me to be a rather appropriate description of God. It is most certainly as valid as any other viewpoint. So, am I missing something? Granted I do not profess to be a Christian, so I might not be understanding this very well. Christians, what say you?

This Christian has no problem with what you've posted.

However one defines and interprets Father, Son and Holy Ghost...they're simply three manifestations of one God.

 

[ProfLogic]

Here is some scripture...

Keep in mind. I worship ONE God. I simply view God as being one who has and does manifest Himself into three separate beings. I view my God as being Father, Son and Spirit. He's still ONE God Almighty.

In reference to my thread when jesus uttered my god my god why have you forsaken me? Does that make sense if jesus is truly the almighty god himself. Why would he call to himself?

 

[ProfLogic]

This Christian has no problem with what you've posted.

However one defines and interprets Father, Son and Holy Ghost...they're simply three manifestations of one God.

Why would repectfully refer it say send its only son? If it is just manefesting itself, would it be simpler to say it was sending itself to die for mankind. That seems to be closer to self sacrifice than sending another for this task.

 

[Genna]

I thought that Orthodox Christianity believed that God was One Being in three eternal persons amd not three manifestations?

http://www.carm.org/heresy/modalism.htm

 

[ProfLogic]

Does Islam think lowly of religions who believe in the trinity or do they still respect the difference in this belief?

 

[Genna]

Sorry If I go off topic here for a bit, but someone mentioned that there is a holy spirit in Islam, no? And that muhammad was the holy spirit, but a spirit by definition is non-corporeal, how do you explain this?

 

[Peace]

I am not sure I understand So is God a vessel to carry the souls(like a storage container) or is he the creator of souls.


Then why are we not all Gods then.

So he is not all God but part of God. Is that why he never called himself God because he was never fully God. Because that makes more sense if I am understanding you correctly. But it still does not change the fact that Christians believe he is God (fully), He prays to himself calls on himself, God has to eat, sleep, use the bathroom as Jesus did. He sent himself. He is greater and equal to himself. God the eternal died. And called on himself and then raised himself up to his self . you said he had the same powers of God. No God allowed him to do it. Or did He allow hiself to do it. Jesus says he has no power except from the one who sent him. So God says he has no power except from himself who sent himself.

I am really trying to understand you but if he is just a part then how can he fully be God. The bible says God is one. There is nothing like him. He created the heavens and the earth. Jesus cursed a fig tree. Why? If he was God the tree would have given him whatever he asked. If he was God he would have created it.

Off the topic can people hurt God. In your understanding of who god is.

Well said brother:clap Jazak Allah kayran!!!!

Peace

 

[Peace]

Sorry If I go off topic here for a bit, but someone mentioned that there is a holy spirit in Islam, no?

we believe in Gabriel may peace be upon him as a great Angel of God and the the mediator between God and Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.

And that muhammad was the holy spirit, but a spirit by definition is non-corporeal, how do you explain this?

No Prophet Muhammad is a human and the slave of God and His Prophet sent to all human Kind as a final Prophet of God.

Peace

 

[Peace]

Does Islam think lowly of religions who believe in the trinity or do they still respect the difference in this belief?

We don't think lowly of others. We have our own religion as they have theirs. We try our best to convey the message of Islam and show the truth, if people believe it's great but if they don't it's fine, for there is no compulsion in Islam.

Peace

 

[Genna]

Why does God in the Quran often refer to himself as we, us and our?

 

[James the Persian]

I thought that Orthodox Christianity believed that God was One Being in three eternal persons amd not three manifestations?

http://www.carm.org/heresy/modalism.htm

Yes, modalism (also called Sabellianism) is a heresy. Unfortunately many people who are actually Trinitarian have a poor understanding of the concept and/or language used and hence tend to use modalist sounding words when they mean something else. Others clearly aren't aware of the difference between modalism and Triadology. However, I would point out that the word used in English, person, is a poor translation of the word Hypostasis, which is why I tend to stick with the original Greek. There is no idea in the term hypostasis of an individual being as there is in the English person. When we talk of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, we are not talking of separate beings in the way we would do when referring to Mary, John and Bob.

James

 

[Islam]

Genna, "Why does God in the Quran often refer to himself as we, us and our?" its to glorify himself. As if a king is talking he would say "we" instead of "I" but it still means one

 

[AbuQuteiba]

Everyone that has been trying to explain the trinity, thanks alot for the explanations. I just have one question? Does the Bible mention this trinity?