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One God (Islam) Or Trinity (Christianity)

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Here is some scripture...

Hopefully, this will help my Muslim brothers and sisters understand where I'm coming from a little better and if not...I'm here to answer any questions you have.

Keep in mind. I worship ONE God. I simply view God as being one who has and does manifest Himself into three separate beings. I view my God as being Father, Son and Spirit. He's still ONE God Almighty.

If you have any questions, please let me know. :)

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that he might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Speak these things, exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you." Tit. 2:11-15

"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given: and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God." Isaiah 9:6

"My Father who has given them to me is greater than all: and no one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and My Father are one." John 10:29-30

"Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." John 8:58

After Christ arose...he spoke to Thomas and when Thomas saw him he replied...

"My Lord and my God!." John 20:28

In John 1:1-5...the Eternal Word is defined as being both God and Christ...

"In the beginning, was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not comprehend it."

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.Colossians 1:16
 

Snowbear

Nita Okhata
Trinity does not mean 3 Gods. Trinity means ONE GOD in 3 forms.
Mujahid Mohammed said:
How can you be monotheists when you worship someone other than God.
If you mean worship Jesus as someone 'other than God,' then your assumption is flawed.

As those of us who attest that Jesus is/was 'God come to earth in the flesh,' there is no polytheism about it. There's only one God Who manifests in 3 forms, Jesus being one of them. Same God. Just one. Therefore, monotheism.
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
dawny0826 said:
If you're speaking of Jesus Christ...keep in mind that a lot of Christians believe that Christ IS/WAS God.
And this is a concept they argue amongst themselves about. I have Christian friends who believe he is only the son of God and not the father are they wrong.

I worship ONE God. I simply acknowledge that my ONE God has and does manifest Himself into separate beings.
So while he(God) is manifested into Jesus who is he(God) talking to on the cross.

I don't place limits on God.
If you believe God had to sacrifice his only son then yes you are putting limits on God. For what is easy for the servant to do you put a condition on forgiveness. He has to. Why can't he just do it. He created the heavens and the universe with a word. Jesus forgave with just words. Would this also not be easy for the All Powerful.

God is all powerful...meaning...ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING is possible with Him and the Trinity makes complete sense to me.
Anything and everything is possible. So you believe God lies, and creates deception. What about creating a world based on a system of injustice. How long would that last. Allah tells us he has forbidden Himself to commit injustice.
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Snowbear said:
Trinity does not mean 3 Gods. Trinity means ONE GOD in 3 forms.

If you mean worship Jesus as someone 'other than God,' then your assumption is flawed.
No, this is the assumption of my very "CHRISTIAN" friend you see as I have already said this is what some of the christians say. I say only what Allah says.

As those of us who attest that Jesus is/was 'God come to earth in the flesh,' there is no polytheism about it. There's only one God Who manifests in 3 forms, Jesus being one of them. Same God. Just one. Therefore, monotheism.
So what does the Bible mean in Number 23:19 "For God is not a man that he should commit sin neither is he the son of man that he should have to repent" I believe that is what it says explain that verse in relation to other. I have a whole list of others. Also you said "There's only one God who manifests in 3 forms," What about the hindu god, or Mithras of the romans, or Osiris of the egyptians. They are all sons of God manifested in 3 forms.

I mean how could they know when the gospels do not even agree upon the last testimony of God/Jesus on the cross. So it would not suprise me that verses contradict each other in terms of the understandings of God. You have so many different authors, written at different times all interpreting it differently
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
And this is a concept they argue amongst themselves about. I have Christian friends who believe he is only the son of God and not the father are they wrong.

I'm not in the position to declare whether other Christians are right or wrong. And posting here on this thread isn't an attempt to either prove or disprove the Trinity. My belief in the Trinity stems from my interpretation of the Bible as well as my personal experience and FAITH with/in the Trinity concept. It makes complete sense to me. It's actually my everything when you get down to it.

I can't view Christ as being anyone other than my precious God in the flesh. Who better to show me how to live for God than God Himself. And the Holy Spirit is God's precious spirit which dwells within me and all believers and guides and directs. It all makes sense to me. So, what other Christian's believe is specific to THEM. I'm not here to prove anything. I'm here to help you understand where I'm coming from. Not to convert you or to further confuse you but in love to help you understand why I believe as I do.

So while he(God) is manifested into Jesus who is he(God) talking to on the cross.

In essence. To say that it isn't possible in my opinion, is to place limits on God and to say that there's something that God simply can't do because you can't understand how it's possible.

I don't understand how with the very directive God could create the world in which we live, the heavens, all the beasts and plants and MAN...what an intricate and complex creature man is...yet I KNOW that He did.

I believe in a God that is all powerful, all knowing and ALL CAPABLE.

In my heart, I don't believe that anyone else is more capable of teaching us to how to live for God than God. But mind you, God showed Moses many miracles and man still didn't believe and still disobeyed. God knew that we needed a man...a human to relate to...a human to learn from. We needed a perfect example of what we should be. Christ was very much a man and very much divine. He was God in the flesh but I doubt many would have believed had God stated "Hey, it's me! Right here." No...we needed to relate on a parent/child level. We needed to see how a perfect human could commune and follow God as God's CHILD.

So, Christ really WAS a man of flesh and bone in one regard. He was also very much divine.

If you believe God had to sacrifice his only son then yes you are putting limits on God.

I place NO limits on God and I understand how truly precious Christ's sacrifice was.

For what is easy for the servant to do you put a condition on forgiveness. He has to. Why can't he just do it. He created the heavens and the universe with a word. Jesus forgave with just words. Would this also not be easy for the All Powerful.

Easy. Of course. But God had a plan and executed His plan. And it's a perfect plan.

Christ Jesus forgives when we come to Him in repentence. He shed His blood so that we could atone for our sins by asking with a sincere heart. But we're given so much more when we go to Him. We're given the gift of the Holy Spirit...we're given new life. We're given peace that surpasses all understanding and we're given the opportunity to establish a relationship with our Heavenly Father...to piece by piece, day by day get to know more and more about Him and to see Him work miracles through us. We become lights unto this dark world with Christ in our lives.

So you believe God lies, and creates deception.

Nope. That's Satan...the author of lies, deceit and confusion.

What about creating a world based on a system of injustice. How long would that last. Allah tells us he has forbidden Himself to commit injustice.

I'm not following you here. This is where I'll call on you to explain things.

What injustice? Can you expound?

God is not the author of chaos and confusion. And if you view the world as being injust, which I wouldn't argue with you on that one...it's simply because this world is NOT OF GOD. Christians are not of this world. We belong to God.
 

Snowbear

Nita Okhata
Mujahid Mohammed said:
No, this is the assumption of my very "CHRISTIAN" friend ...
Uh - OK. I don't agree with your 'very "CHRISTIAN" friend' then. I agree with what the Word of God (aka the Bible) says.
Mujahid Mohammed said:
... you see as I have already said this is what some of the christians say. I say only what Allah says.
First you say that you say what some Christians say. Then you say you say only what God says. Unless you are saying that the Christians are saying what God says, then you are contradicting yourself :D
Mujahid Mohammed said:
So what does the Bible mean in Number 23:19 "For God is not a man that he should commit sin neither is he the son of man that he should have to repent" I believe that is what it says explain that verse in relation to other.
In relation to what other?
Num 23:19 God is not a man that He should lie, neither the son of man that He should repent. Has He said, and shall He not do it? Or has He spoken, and shall He not make it good?
God is divine, therefore does not lie, unlike man or son of man, who lies and must repent. God does what He says He will do. He speaks and makes it so.

The 'son of man' here is not capitalized. God is not speaking of Jesus, who is also called the Son of Man (capitalized to show His divinity).
Mujahid Mohammed said:
Also you said "There's only one God who manifests in 3 forms," What about the hindu god, or Mithras of the romans, or Osiris of the egyptians. They are all sons of God manifested in 3 forms.
I'm talking about the one true God. I'm not talking about other gods of the hindus, romans or egyptians.
Mujahid Mohammed said:
So it would not suprise me that verses contradict each other in terms of the understandings of God.
The only contradiction is that which you make it. Anyone can take just about any verse out of context and twist it to say just about anything they want it to. Haven't you ever seen folks try to do that with the Qoran, just as you are trying to do here with the Bible?
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Mujahid Mohammed said:
And this is a concept they argue amongst themselves about. I have Christian friends who believe he is only the son of God and not the father are they wrong.
I'd guess that their understanding of the Trinity is rather limited if they couched it in those terms, but no they aren't wrong. The One God has three Hypostases (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) only one of which was Incarnate as Christ. Note that while English usually uses Person as a translation for Hypostasis, it is a poor one. A hypostasis is not an individual being.

So while he(God) is manifested into Jesus who is he(God) talking to on the cross.
The Father. You must also bear in mind that orthodox (small o deliberate) Christology states that Christ was both fully God and fully man - this means he had a human will as well as a Divine one. There are times in Scripture where it is apparent that the human will is speaking and others where it is clear it is the Divine.

If you believe God had to sacrifice his only son then yes you are putting limits on God. For what is easy for the servant to do you put a condition on forgiveness. He has to. Why can't he just do it. He created the heavens and the universe with a word. Jesus forgave with just words. Would this also not be easy for the All Powerful.
You are quite correct in this, but this is a criticism only of western Christians who adhere to substitutionary atonement. In fact, it's the exact argument I use against that doctrine. Fortunately this is neither a universally held belief amongst Christians not is it the most ancient understanding of soteriology. For an older understanding which is still adhered to in the Christian east I would suggest reading On the Incarnation by St. Athanasios. That might also clear up your misconceptions about Christology. I'll post a link to the text if you're interested.

James
 

Snowbear

Nita Okhata
JamesThePersian said:
You must also bear in mind that orthodox (small o deliberate) Christology states that Christ was both fully God and fully man - this means he had a human will as well as a Divine one. There are times in Scripture where it is apparent that the human will is speaking and others where it is clear it is the Divine.
Well said, James.
I think pretty much all Christians who believe in the Trinity believe this :)
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Snowbear said:
Well said, James.
I think pretty much all Christians who believe in the Trinity believe this :)

That's why the small 'o' was deliberate. I was using orthodox in its more general sense rather than as an identifier for the teachings of my Church. If I was doing that I'd have written Orthodox (capital 'o' deliberate).

James
 

Snowbear

Nita Okhata
JamesThePersian said:
That's why the small 'o' was deliberate. I was using orthodox in its more general sense rather than as an identifier for the teachings of my Church. If I was doing that I'd have written Orthodox (capital 'o' deliberate).
Gotcha - thanks for the explanation ;)

And I still think it was well said :)
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Snowbear said:
Uh - OK. I don't agree with your 'very "CHRISTIAN" friend' then. I agree with what the Word of God (aka the Bible) says.
You both read from the same book yet you both claim different things.
First you say that you say what some Christians say. Then you say you say only what God says. Unless you are saying that the Christians are saying what God says, then you are contradicting yourself :D
You see that is part of the Christians problem. God says one thing you as Christians say something different.

In relation to what other?
Num 23:19 God is not a man that He should lie, neither the son of man that He should repent. Has He said, and shall He not do it? Or has He spoken, and shall He not make it good?
God is divine, therefore does not lie, unlike man or son of man, who lies and must repent. God does what He says He will do. He speaks and makes it so.
Answer the question, you say Jesus a man is God. Yet the bible in the verse above says this is not possible.

The 'son of man' here is not capitalized. God is not speaking of Jesus, who is also called the Son of Man (capitalized to show His divinity).
there are no capitals in Greek which is what the bible was translated from. So where do they get the capitals from.

I'm talking about the one true God. I'm not talking about other gods of the hindus, romans or egyptians.
The one God is only one, yet the god you have is very similar to other very PAGAN religions. We worship only God, yet Christian like those mentioned above worship very similar God heads.

The only contradiction is that which you make it. Anyone can take just about any verse out of context and twist it to say just about anything they want it to.
No, for example what were Jesus's last words on the cross. From the testimony of the four canons. List them verse for verse. Are they the same. If they cannot aggree on his last words, then it is no suprise that you disagree about his makeup

Haven't you ever seen folks try to do that with the Qoran, just as you are trying to do here with the Bible?
Sure they interpret to their own personal interpretation instead on how Allah and his Messenger interpreted it. Christians follow Pauls interpretation. Not jesus or his companions or even God. As if they need him to clarify their statements. Is not God/Jesus the all knowing. Would he not be able to explain himself very clearly to his creation. I have done nothing in terms of explaining your religion. This is what your Christian brethren say. Each Christian group interprets it differently. Each pastor within each church does it differently. It is you as Christians who are creating the confusion. You interpret the Bible as you see it and not how Jesus saw it. Not to mention the fact none of the documents you have are the same.
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
JamesThePersian said:
I'd guess that their understanding of the Trinity is rather limited if they couched it in those terms, but no they aren't wrong. The One God has three Hypostases (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) only one of which was Incarnate as Christ. Note that while English usually uses Person as a translation for Hypostasis, it is a poor one. A hypostasis is not an individual being.


The Father. You must also bear in mind that orthodox (small o deliberate) Christology states that Christ was both fully God and fully man - this means he had a human will as well as a Divine one. There are times in Scripture where it is apparent that the human will is speaking and others where it is clear it is the Divine.


You are quite correct in this, but this is a criticism only of western Christians who adhere to substitutionary atonement. In fact, it's the exact argument I use against that doctrine. Fortunately this is neither a universally held belief amongst Christians not is it the most ancient understanding of soteriology. For an older understanding which is still adhered to in the Christian east I would suggest reading On the Incarnation by St. Athanasios. That might also clear up your misconceptions about Christology. I'll post a link to the text if you're interested.

James
I agree with alot of what you say but the issue is. Christians themselves do not agree and they all have an evidence from the Bible to support them. The evidence is where the division lies. The words compiled. Scholars are unanimous in this.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Mujahid Mohammed said:
I agree with alot of what you say but the issue is. Christians themselves do not agree and they all have an evidence from the Bible to support them. The evidence is where the division lies. The words compiled. Scholars are unanimous in this.

I think, if I understand what you're trying to say, that this is only really an issue for those who believe the Bible is the sole basis for Christian faith. This is not the case for the majority of Christians alive today (seeing as Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Oriental Orthodox together make up the overwhelming majority of Christians) and the sola scripturalists when taken against the whole of Christian history are a vanishingly small minority. The fact that the Bible was written and compiled by the Church holds no difficulty for us whatsoever. Just as you have the Hadith we have Holy Tradition and it is that which guides a correct understanding of Scripture.

James
 

steve218

New Member
Jesus died, rose again, and his holy spirit is dispursed thruout the lands. Jesus is on the right hand of God and the holy spirit is how everyone can commune with the Father through prayer.

I agree with alot of what you say but the issue is. Christians themselves do not agree and they all have an evidence from the Bible to support them. The evidence is where the division lies. The words compiled. Scholars are unanimous in this.

In my belief, God is an idea, not a being. The Holy Trinity are three ideas that has spawned from one. These ideas were created and written down by men, therefore logic is directly involved. And since everyone's logic isnt the same, there will be disagreements. And the evidence supported by both parties will be "logical". Others will choose either side of the debate and division will occur. Even tho both parties are inspired and driven by an
idea(s).
 

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
Leaving aside minor unorthodox, non-traditional schisms....

Most Christians when asked:
"Christians, what do you believe?"
will answer something close to this:

I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;

and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;

and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.


And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.

And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.


========================================================
and this:

I believe in God the Father Almighty
Maker of Heaven and Earth
and in Jesus Christ His only son,
Our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit
born of the virgin Mary
suffered under Pontius Pilate
was crucified, dead and buried.

On the third day he rose again from the dead
He ascended into Heaven
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost
The Holy catholic (Christian) Church
the communion of the saints
the forgiveness of sins
the resurrection of the body
and the life everlasting.


Christianity is monotheistic.

The creed(s) cited above can be found under 'What We Believe' on the websites of major Christian sites all over the web. They are recited in countless churches throughout the world every worship service.

Throughout history and around the world Christianity is recognized as being monotheistic by reputable scholars of every faith and philosophy. There is no debate about it among credible authorities. There is no false separation into three gods, there is no pantheism.

Christians realize the monotheistic trinity is a conundrum for non-believers, but firmly refuse the disrespectful labels, thank you.
 

Snowbear

Nita Okhata
Mujahid Mohammed said:
Answer the question...
I did answer it.
You think my beliefs are bunk. I know they're not.
I have no reason to argue with you about it when you dismiss every comment I make as bunk.
 
Mujahid Mohammed said:
I agree with alot of what you say but the issue is. Christians themselves do not agree and they all have an evidence from the Bible to support them. The evidence is where the division lies. The words compiled. Scholars are unanimous in this.
And Muslims themselves do not agree and they all have evidence from the Quran. Does that make the Quran any less inspired or true in your eyes?

FGS
 

nutshell

Well-Known Member
Islam said:
"He was able to heal the sick, walk on water, calm the seas...why? Because of His divinity. " Actually in Islam we believe that he was able to perform these miracles by the help of God because he was a prophet not because he was Gods son. Just like the miracles Moses did, was Moses devine? No he was human, same as Jesus. (Again, its the islami perspective)

I'm asking because I sincerely don't know, but did Muhammad perform any miracles?
 

Islam

Member
Yes many many miracles. Water once drifted through his hands so the Muslims would wash up to pray. He once fed thousands with only one meal. He was lifted into the sky to heaven and met all the prophets including Moses, Jesus and Abraham. He also (by Gods permission of course, he couldnt do anything without God) split the moon. (Science has proved that there is a line in the middle of the mmoon as if it was split.
I cant list all miracles cuz theyre many. He also prophecized about many stuff that came to happen such as:
-A great war between people with the same relegion (WW1)
-Metal speaking (Radios)
-Watching another place even country while you're in another place (TV)
-People no longer using hourses and camels and start using stuff like "moving houses" (cars)
 
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