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One God (Islam) Or Trinity (Christianity)

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Islam, Sep 4, 2006.

  1. Islam

    Islam Member

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    Trinity?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXz_oYJJlg0...ted&search=

    Do Muslims Believe in Jesus Christ?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSyXkmRVs3E...ted&search=

    Bible Test
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCvZsySqPZY...ted&search=

    Was Islam spread by the Sword?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIMUoFPOk4Y...ted&search=

    The World Is Flat According to the Bible !
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_0cnEYa3ko...ted&search=

    And 2 end this topic i quote the holly Quran

    "...Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." 4:171
     
  2. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Well, naturally...I'm going to say ONE GOD who manifests into three separate beings...Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
     
  3. Islam

    Islam Member

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    =) 3=1? But At the time of Moses it was 1? And how can God have partners? How can he have a son? Think of it.. and above that kill his son to forgive our sins? If im ur boss at work and u steal i go and kill my son so i wont fire you? How can God be mercifull and Just and at the same time kill and torment his son to forgive our sins? 1=1.. Jesus peace be upon him = Gods messenger and prophet ..
     
  4. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Islam; we have had this discussion on this forum many, many times before. I accept that you have your views, but you must accept that we Christians have our views too. If you really are interested, an explanation of the trinity is as follows:-

    (from the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia)http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

    I. THE DOGMA OF THE TRINITY


    The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

    In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom ("Ad. Autol.", II, 15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian ("De pud." c. xxi). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen ("In Ps. xvii", 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:
    There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever (P. G., X, 986). ​
    It is manifest that a dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation. When the fact of revelation, understood in its full sense as the speech of God to man, is no longer admitted, the rejection of the doctrine follows as a necessary consequence. For this reason it has no place in the Liberal Protestantism of today. The writers of this school contend that the doctrine of the Trinity, as professed by the Church, is not contained in the New Testament, but that it was first formulated in the second century and received final approbation in the fourth, as the result of the Arian and Macedonian controversies. In view of this assertion it is necessary to consider in some detail the evidence afforded by Holy Scripture. Attempts have been made recently to apply the more extreme theories of comparative religion to the doctrine ot the Trinity, and to account for it by an imaginary law of nature compelling men to group the objects of their worship in threes. It seems needless to give more than a reference to these extravagant views, which serious thinkers of every school reject as destitute of foundation. II. PROOF OF DOCTRINE FROM SCRIPTURE

    (Please look at the link above for the entire script)
     
  5. Islam

    Islam Member

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  6. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    The Father and Son are One and always have been...before time.

    And surely, you can't deny that the Holy Spirit has always been.

    ONE God. One beautiful, powerful, mighty LIMITLESS God who has manifested Himself into three separate persons.

    Too many times, I think we place limits on God. God is ALL powerful.

    God doesn't have partners. God IS the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are three manifestations of God. To say that this is impossible is to say that you place limits on God. In your mind, you limit what He is capable of doing.

    Christ's sacrifice was made out of LOVE. There was nothing but LOVE in that face, I can promise you that. He gave Himself so that you and I don't have to live our lives, carrying the burden of our sin. If we're blemished, we cannot be reconciled with our Heavenly Father. Christ's sacrifice made that reconciliation possible.

    I'm going to assume that we're on the same page as far as God established his covenant with man via Moses. And obviously, man did a horrible job of obeying God. God loves us and cared so much for us, even though we were unworthy of His love...He made HIMSELF flesh for us...so that we could SEE with our own eyes how we are supposed to commune with Him and live for Him.

    He also took it a step further. He showed us through the sacrifice of Christ, what we must do in order to be reconciled to Him. Christ was fully man, fully God. Because He was in flesh, He was flesh and bones like you and I but He was also fully God...full with the Holy Spirit. He was able to heal the sick, walk on water, calm the seas...why? Because of His divinity.

    God established a covenenant with Moses. Man was instructed how to atone for their sins via sacrifice...animal sacrifice and personal sacrifice. It wasn't enough. Man still needed saving...from ourselves.

    By Christ's sacrifice, God showed us that we must sacrifice our flesh. We must let go of the world and allow God into our hearts.

    By Christ's resurrection, God showed us that life is only found in Him. When we let go of the ways of the flesh..."die" so to speak, we are reborn in Christ. We have life.

    And Christ Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit. Man could not receive the Holy Spirit before Christ's death and resurrection.

    So you see...it's all part of God's plan for our salvation. ONE GOD...God Almighty...has manifested Himself into three separate manifestations to carry out HIS plan for our salvation.

    He is our Father. He came to us in the flesh, as the son and He is also the precious spirit that resides within each believer. ONE GOD.

    To atone for one's sins, one must now turn to Christ and repent. The sacrifice has been made. Freedom has been bought. God's plan is without flaw.
     
  7. Islam

    Islam Member

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    "He was able to heal the sick, walk on water, calm the seas...why? Because of His divinity. " Actually in Islam we believe that he was able to perform these miracles by the help of God because he was a prophet not because he was Gods son. Just like the miracles Moses did, was Moses devine? No he was human, same as Jesus. (Again, its the islami perspective)
     
  8. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I never thought you did; I am sorry if I gave that impression. It is just that virtually every Muslim member of this forum has asked the same question.

    It almost has been made to sound as if, to a Muslim, we are not monotheists, which, of course, we are.
     
  9. Hacker

    Hacker Well-Known Member

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    A human with supernatural abilities, there is a big difference.
     
  10. BruceDLimber

    BruceDLimber Well-Known Member

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    Greetings!

    >One God (Islam) Or Trinity (Christianity)

    The concept of one God is hardly limited to Islam: Judaism and the Baha'i Faith (to name two) also assert the Oneness of God!

    Peace,

    Bruce
     
  11. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    We're never going to view Christ in the same light. And there's nothing than anyone can say that would make me doubt Christ's divinity.

    I'm always more than happy to explain my beliefs but I have a hunch that we're not going to be able to meet in the middle. Our beliefs are too different.

    I wish you well, nonetheless. God Bless and keep you and yours.
     
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    In John 10:17-18, Jesus is recorded as having said: "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

    From my perspective, this refutes the belief that Jesus was able to perform miracles solely as an agent of God. How many prophets (i.e. Abraham, Noah, Moses, Isaiah... even Mohammad, if you like) had the power to take up their own life after having laid it down? Jesus was saying that He had power over life and death and that He would rise again of His own accord. He was not relying on His Father to restore Him to life, as any other man would have had to do.

    On the other hand, He also pointed out that by laying down His life and then taking it up again, He was fulfilling a commandment given to him by his Father. He did not give Himself this commandment; that would make no sense whatsoever. Furthermore, the fact that He specifically uses the word "commandment" implies that He received instructions from someone who had authority over Him, to whom He would relinquish His own will. That doesn't sound to me as if He and His Father were both the same being; it sounds like two distinct beings, one of whom was in a position of superiority over the other.

    So, in my opinion, both Islam and mainstream Christianity are wrong in their understanding of who Jesus Christ really was. :)
     
  13. Booko

    Booko Deviled Hen

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    God cannot have a physical son, Islam, and I think if you poll the Christians here they would tell you as much, not to mention that's regarded as a heresy.

    From my pov, "Son of God" is a title, just like one of the titles of Abraham was "Friend of God."

    I know the Christians have a particular understanding of the meanings of those texts in their Book, but what I don't understand is why you assume you either have to accept their understanding of it or toss out the entire Book.

    That seems a bit extreme.
     
  14. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Not according to LDS doctrine. We totally believe Jesus Christ was the "Only Begotten Son" (i.e. the literal, physical offspring) of God. To us, the title "Son of God" describes an actual Father-Son relationship, and anything else is heresy.

    Furthermore, if anyone suggests that God would have had to have sexual relations with Mary in order for Him to be Jesus' literal Father... my response will be this: Was Mary His literal Mother? Case closed.
     
  15. Booko

    Booko Deviled Hen

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    Whoops! Sorry about that, Katz.

    I hope you don't think I was calling you a heretic anyway. You get that enough from other quarters. :cover:

    I only meant to point out the mainstream Christian view of the idea of Jesus being a physical Son of God, but then, y'all have been most honest about not claiming to be mainstream.

    And being in the mainstream doesn't always mean you're right anyway.

    "He doeth whatsoever He willeth."

    That's pretty much my take on the matter, when it comes down to it.
     
  16. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Heck no. It didn't even cross my mind.

    Why do you think I like the Baha'is so much?

    I couldn't have said it better myself. Mainstream Christianity is not for me, thank you very much.

    That works for me, too.
     
  17. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    How can you be monotheists when you worship someone other than God.
     
  18. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    So who was Jesus talking to when he was on the cross. And who is this seperate individual Jesus taught his disciples to pray to. You know the lords prayer. And how could as the bible claims God send Jesus yet be him all at the same time. We can meet in the middle if you could explain some of these things to a muslim it does not make sense. Jesus is God yet he was talking to Himself when he was on the cross. He is God the father yet the Father is in heaven when he is clearly on earth. I think this is where the confusion comes in. There are many verses in the bible some of which have been abrogated and interperpolated as your scholars say. There are other verses that contradict the claim of this.
     
  19. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    If you're speaking of Jesus Christ...keep in mind that a lot of Christians believe that Christ IS/WAS God.

    I worship ONE God. I simply acknowledge that my ONE God has and does manifest Himself into separate beings. I don't place limits on God. God is all powerful...meaning...ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING is possible with Him and the Trinity makes complete sense to me.
     
  20. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Think of what Christ's PURPOSE was while on earth.

    Christ's PURPOSE was to SHOW US how to commune with God in a parent/child relationship. So, of course, Christ communicated with the Father. That was His entire purpose for being here one earth...to show us how to live our lives for God, how to abandon our flesh and worldly ways and to follow God. This doesn't change the fact that Christ was God in the flesh.

    If you want to understand where I'm coming from...don't place limits on God. By your logic...(which from a logical standpoint makes sense)...Christ and God cannot possibly be one in the same.

    Well, I see things quite differently. My God is capable of anything. He's more than capable of being here there and everywhere all at once. He's greater than everything because He has created everything.

    I would be more than happy to quote scripture but if you can't understand that I view God differently...than I say with respect...I just don't think you're going to understand where I'm coming from.
     
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