One atheist’s idea on how to prevent evil

[ADigitalArtist]

Ah! But you do have choices. Even though a god might know your choice, you don't. So you have to choose. Knowing the choice you will make is not forcing you to make that choice. Which gives you options.
If you and I are traveling down a road that ends with a left turn or going over a cliff and I know you will take the left turn, does that mean I set your choice in stone?

You didn't create me, and you don't have incontrovertible knowledge of what I will do, say and think from the beginning of time. If you did, than it's not even so much that my choice is set in stone. I never had a choice, because a clear linear path was set from long before I existed. I could literally choose to do nothing, regardless of how sensible or senseless the thing would be.

Not necessarily. Video games exist in which there are multiple endings and which ending we experience depends on the choices we make in the game.

So God could see where all our different choices in life lead to (like thinking multiple possible moves ahead in chess but unlimited). Therefore our choices in life aren't predetermined but the road that each possible choice leads to can be predicted.

Video game characters don't have free will either. Every action Jill Valentine takes, every bit of ammo, every direction, every puzzle solution, would seem like a choice to her. But if her player is the one moving the joystick, then the choices are illusory.

 

[Curious George]

Why can't you understand that what God knows in His realm of existence where there is no time is entirely separate from what happens in this material world realm of existence where time exists?

The outcome is already known because God knows the choices WE will make before, during and after we make them in this material world realm. God is not subject to time. God knows everything all at once.

I do not understand it because it is not understandable.

Despite me taking issue with a temporally removed entity having any affect on our reality, if outcomes are exactly and completely known, no choice can exist.

 

[Skwim]

There is not some magic wand God can wave because He is omnipotent.
I am sick to death of that ploy, it is idiotic and inane.

"God can do anything because God is omnipotent."
What that means to an atheist is God should do what I think God should do because God is omnipotent.
They are so lacking in self-awareness they do not even realize that is what they are saying... sad, really.

What atheists completely miss, like the broad side of the barn, is that an omnipotent God only does what He chooses to do, not what they want Him to do.

God could only do what this atheist thinks He could do by overriding free will and preventing people from making evil choices and making people make good choices. This is so obvious to anyone who can think.

So what's the deal? You think dictionaries employ atheists to write the definition of "omnipotent"? So as to what; make people like yourself feel sick to death?

OF COURSE THEY DO!!

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[Curious George]

Not necessarily. Video games exist in which there are multiple endings and which ending we experience depends on the choices we make in the game.

So God could see where all our different choices in life lead to (like thinking multiple possible moves ahead in chess but unlimited). Therefore our choices in life aren't predetermined but the road that each possible choice leads to can be predicted.

But then such an entity would not know the choice we would make, only all possible outcomes of all choices we would make. Therefore the entity could not be omniscient because they would lack some knowledge, specifically the knowledge of which choice we would make.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Why can't you understand that what God knows in His realm of existence where there is no time is entirely separate from what happens in this material world realm of existence where time exists?

The outcome is already known because God knows the choices WE will make before, during and after we make them in this material world realm. God is not subject to time. God knows everything all at once.

I can't see how people can't understand God as a creator and that he creates everything

You didn't create me, and you don't have incontrovertible knowledge of what I will do, say and think from the beginning of time. If you did, than it's not even so much that my choice is set in stone. I never had a choice, because a clear linear path was set from long before I existed. I could literally choose to do nothing, regardless of how sensible or senseless the thing would be.

Video game characters don't have free will either. Every action Jill Valentine takes, every bit of ammo, every direction, every puzzle solution, would seem like a choice to her. But if her player is the one moving the joystick, then the choices are illusory.

I am talking about the player in my example. I am not talking about unlimited choices either as all amount of choices at any given time are finite. In video games the choices aren't illusory as it would be my choice to pursue a side quest or not for example. Certainly the general script is written out though. That is what Bible prophecy definitely points to as an example.

P.S. Love the Resident Evil reference

 

[We Never Know]

But then such an entity would not know the choice we would make, only all possible outcomes of all choices we would make. Therefore the entity could not be omniscient because they would lack some knowledge, specifically the knowledge of which choice we would make.

Here's the way I see it. If a god does exists, we are using mere human words trying to describe something beyond our comprehension then saying it doesn't meet the definitions of our words we've assigned it. That itself is quite funny.

 

[Samael_Khan]

But then such an entity would not know the choice we would make, only all possible outcomes of all choices we would make. Therefore the entity could not be omniscient because they would lack some knowledge, specifically the knowledge of which choice we would make.

Isn't God being omniscient and assumption? Why would a creator God have to be?

Also it could be like playing an open world RPG. There is a general plot with important key events but the choices each individual player chooses to make isn't known to the developers.

 

[Curious George]

Isn't God being omniscient and assumption? Why would a creator God have to be?

Also it could be like playing an open world RPG. There is a general plot with important key events but the choices each individual player chooses to make isn't known to the developers.

Yes it very much is an assumption. Man has made gods without that trait and with that trait. It just so happens that having that superpower makes one god cooler and stronger than the other gods:
"My god is wise"
"Oh yeah? My god knows everything!"

That it is an assumption is beside the point. DA was simply pointing out how omniscience contradicts free will.

Sure toss out omniscience and remove plot holes if you want. But, we were just discussing omniscience.

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not understand it because it is not understandable.

You won't be the first one. I have been through this with many people.

Despite me taking issue with a temporally removed entity having any affect on our reality, if outcomes are exactly and completely known, no choice can exist.

It is true that we have no choice but to do what God knows we will do, but that is because what God knows we will do is identical to what we will choose to do.

 

[Trailblazer]

So what's the deal? You think dictionaries employ atheists to write the definition of "omnipotent"? So as to what; make people like yourself feel sick to death?

OF COURSE THEY DO!!

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Since atheists do not believe God exists they should just shut up about what the omnipotent god can do.
They cannot have it both ways.

 

[Curious George]

You won't be the first one. I have been through this with many people.

It is true that we have no choice but to do what God knows we will do, but that is because what God knows we will do is identical to what we will choose to do.

And you do not see the mental gymnastics in that last sentence?

I am sure you are sincere in believing this removes the contradiction. It does not.

 

[Neutral Name]

I have an atheist poster on my forum who says it is god’s fault there is evil because god, if he exists, makes evil choices available to humans.

Atheist: Any being who would make evil choices available would be an evil being. Therefore, if god exists, god is to blame for evil, not humans.

He says that god could arrange it so only good choices are available for people to make and that would prevent evil.

So I asked him to explain precisely how God could make only good choices available to humans and I asked him to explain HOW this would play out in the real world we live in. Below is his answer:

Atheist: Try having a real omnipotent god who could see to that.

As you can see he could not answer HOW a real omnipotent God could make only good choices available to humans.
I have asked him three or four times and still no answer.

How could an omnipotent God make only good choices available to humans? Any ideas?

God does not make only good choices available to humans because God gives free will. God does not control people but God is there to help people if they want him/her to.

 

[Skwim]

Since atheists do not believe God exists they should just shut up about what the omnipotent god can do.

Yet you were willing to talk with your atheist poster about omnipotence (post #1). So how does this work? You only talk with atheists when you think you have the upper hand, but when you don't they should "just shut up"? Do have any idea how juvenile this is?

They cannot have it both ways.

Of course not, especially when they might make you look like a fool.

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[Samael_Khan]

Yes it very much is an assumption. Man has made gods without that trait and with that trait. It just so happens that having that superpower makes one god cooler and stronger than the other gods:
"My god is wise"
"Oh yeah? My god knows everything!"

That it is an assumption is beside the point. DA was simply pointing out how omniscience contradicts free will.

Sure toss out omniscience and remove plot holes if you want. But, we were just discussing omniscience.

Funny.

OK. Regarding omniscience:

Shouldn't we figure out the mechanism of omniscience before saying it contradicts freewill? In fact isn't the whole discussion pointless as the very concept is outside of our understanding in the first place?

 

[Curious George]

Funny.

OK. Regarding omniscience:

Shouldn't we figure out the mechanism of omniscience before saying it contradicts freewill? In fact isn't the whole discussion pointless as the very concept is outside of our understanding in the first place?

Is a circle outside our understanding because no perfect circle exists?

We needn't figure out a mechanism for something that is an impossible abstraction. The point here is that assuming omniscience contradicts freewill.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Is a circle outside our understanding because no perfect circle exists?

We needn't figure out a mechanism for something that is an impossible abstraction. The point here is that assuming omniscience contradicts freewill.

You have a point.

 

[viole]

I have an atheist poster on my forum who says it is god’s fault there is evil because god, if he exists, makes evil choices available to humans.

Atheist: Any being who would make evil choices available would be an evil being. Therefore, if god exists, god is to blame for evil, not humans.

He says that god could arrange it so only good choices are available for people to make and that would prevent evil.

So I asked him to explain precisely how God could make only good choices available to humans and I asked him to explain HOW this would play out in the real world we live in. Below is his answer:

Atheist: Try having a real omnipotent god who could see to that.

As you can see he could not answer HOW a real omnipotent God could make only good choices available to humans.
I have asked him three or four times and still no answer.

How could an omnipotent God make only good choices available to humans? Any ideas?

If you are hungry and you are presented with a choice between pizza and a rotting rat, don’t you think that your free will would be somehow influenced for reasons outside your control?

So, it seems theoretically possible to program such restrictions.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Erebus]

"Evil exists because God wanted us to have free will" doesn't work if God is omnipotent. To illustrate:

Let's assume that having both an absence of evil and the presence of free will is impossible. That's the approach usually taken here.
God is omnipotent and can therefore do anything.
Doing anything means being able to do the impossible.
Therefore an omnipotent God can have both the absence of evil and the presence of free will.


If God chooses not to use his omnipotence to create such a state, you have a few options available:

He might want evil to exist. If that's the case then God is not wholly good. He may in fact be evil.
He's unaware that evil exists. Seems odd for an omnipotent being but it's not impossible.

This is the problem of evil in a nutshell. The absolute easiest way to get around it is to remove one of the following traits from your concept of God: omnipotence, omniscience or omnibenevolence.

 

[JJ50]

God would have to be a sadist then.

The Biblical god, if it exists, is more evil than any human who has ever lived.

 

[Road Less Traveled]

Do you mean God would have made us all good with no ability to do anything bad?
In that case we would just be robots with no free will to choose.

If the end result is a person becoming wholly good, only doing the will of goodness anyhow.......that would make them a robot to you.