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One atheist’s idea on how to prevent evil

We Never Know

No Slack
Those things are not evil, they are just part of the material world.
Evil is the moral choices people make and the actions that ensue from them.

Part of the material that a god created.

I'm sorry but to watch a child suffer and die of cancer when a god could prevent it, that's evil.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If god knows everything before it happens, EVERYTHING must be pre-ordained.
No, that does not compute.
Just because God knows everything does not mean that God preordains everything.
Omniscience is separate from predestination.
God knows everything we will do but God does not predestine everything we will do.
We have control over our own destiny unless something is an irrevocable decree of God.
To say something isn't would be the same as saying god doesn't know something, which would contradict the omniscience. If there are no behaviors or thoughts you can have without god knowing you will have them long before your born, then there are no real choices you can make. They were already made. Regardless of what some people say god wants, it still makes no sense that free will exists with omniscience.
God knows what choices we will make but God does not cause us to make the choices. We make the choices with our free will. God simply knows what those choices were, are, and will be because God's essential knowledge surrounds the realities of all things.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
No, that does not compute.
Just because God knows everything does not mean that God preordains everything.
Omniscience is separate from predestination.
God knows everything we will do but God does not predestine everything we will do.
We have control over our own destiny unless something is an irrevocable decree of God.

God knows what choices we will make but God does not cause us to make the choices. We make the choices with our free will. God simply knows what those choices were, are, and will be because God's essential knowledge surrounds the realities of all things.
She did not say that god knowing everything means god preordained anything. She said that the actions were preordained. No god needs to have preordained the actions, but the actions are nonetheless preordained. If one cannot choose otherwise, then there is no choice.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Part of the material that a god created.

I'm sorry but to watch a child suffer and die of cancer when a god could prevent it, that's evil.
Why do you think God could prevent it?
Why do you think God should prevent it?
Oh, because God is omnipotent so God can do anything.
That is just not reality. God did not set the world up so He could intervene and prevent all suffering.
Humans are responsible to prevent their own suffering when they can and if they can't that's the breaks.

It is always God's fault isn't it? ...
Only it isn't.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
I have an atheist poster on my forum who says it is god’s fault there is evil because god, if he exists, makes evil choices available to humans.

Atheist: Any being who would make evil choices available would be an evil being. Therefore, if god exists, god is to blame for evil, not humans.

He says that god could arrange it so only good choices are available for people to make and that would prevent evil.

So I asked him to explain precisely how God could make only good choices available to humans and I asked him to explain HOW this would play out in the real world we live in. Below is his answer:

Atheist: Try having a real omnipotent god who could see to that.

As you can see he could not answer HOW a real omnipotent God could make only good choices available to humans.
I have asked him three or four times and still no answer.

How could an omnipotent God make only good choices available to humans? Any ideas?

Morality is relative. Theists choose their God's relative morality as a standard to determine what is good or evil.

God decided to give people free will, therefore he knew the potential consequences of his actions. Evil is as much his fault as it is the parents fault that the child they conceived has to endure pain and suffering as well as good in this world. By that atheists reasoning, people shouldn't have children as they know very well that their child will suffer in this world.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
She did not say that god knowing everything means god preordained anything. She said that the actions were preordained. No god needs to have preordained the actions, but the actions are nonetheless preordained. If one cannot choose otherwise, then there is no choice.
We choose to do what God knows we will choose to do.
It's that simple.

Some things are predestined so we cannot choose something else, but we cannot ever know what those things are so there is no point even thinking about them.
For example, maybe it was preordained that I have an auto accident. I did not choose that. It just happened. It was my fate.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
If he cannot tell me how God could do it then he does not have an argument.
He can't just say god can do it because god is omnipotent. That is dumb.
Just what do you think "omnipotent" means? Heck, 'll even save you the time of having to look it up.

Online Dictionary

om·nip·o·tent

/ˌämˈnipəd(ə)nt/

adjective
adjective: omnipotent
1.(of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.

__________________________________________

Cambridge English Dictionary

omnipotent
adjective [ not gradable ]
us /ɑmˈnɪp·ə·t̬ənt/
having the power to do anything: having unlimited power and able to do anything:

------------------------------------------------


Oxford Learner's Dictionary

/ɑmˈnɪpət̮ənt/
(formal)
having total power; able to do anything an omnipotent God


.
 
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ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
No, that does not compute.
Just because God knows everything does not mean that God preordains everything.
Omniscience is separate from predestination.
God knows everything we will do but God does not predestine everything we will do.
We have control over our own destiny unless something is an irrevocable decree of God.

God knows what choices we will make but God does not cause us to make the choices. We make the choices with our free will. God simply knows what those choices were, are, and will be because God's essential knowledge surrounds the realities of all things.
Let's make this simple.
Let's say you have two mason jars, one of lemon curd and one of marionberry jam.
Long before you existed, God knew you would open the lemon curd. With that in mind, is it possible for you to choose the marionberry jam, and make God wrong? Or is your only "choice," the only thing you CAN do, open the lemon curd?
This is why omniscience means everything is predestined.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
I have an atheist poster on my forum who says it is god’s fault there is evil because god, if he exists, makes evil choices available to humans.

Atheist: Any being who would make evil choices available would be an evil being. Therefore, if god exists, god is to blame for evil, not humans.

He says that god could arrange it so only good choices are available for people to make and that would prevent evil.

So I asked him to explain precisely how God could make only good choices available to humans and I asked him to explain HOW this would play out in the real world we live in. Below is his answer:

Atheist: Try having a real omnipotent god who could see to that.

As you can see he could not answer HOW a real omnipotent God could make only good choices available to humans.
I have asked him three or four times and still no answer.

How could an omnipotent God make only good choices available to humans? Any ideas?

God could have made it that only good choices are available to people if he wanted to.

He didn't though because didn't have to and he didn't want to.

It is like asking an artist why he/she created the art piece that they did. It is because they felt like it. Same with God.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
If god knows everything before it happens, EVERYTHING must be pre-ordained. To say something isn't would be the same as saying god doesn't know something, which would contradict the omniscience. If there are no behaviors or thoughts you can have without god knowing you will have them long before your born, then there are no real choices you can make. They were already made. Regardless of what some people say god wants, it still makes no sense that free will exists with omniscience.

Question. If your house caught on fire.....
And you walked out. Is that preordained or common sense?
Or you stayed in and burnt up with it. Is that preordained or stupidity?

We do have choices. It's up to us to make those choices no matter what. Even if someone already knows the choices we will make. That of course is my opinion.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Why do you think God could prevent it?
Why do you think God should prevent it?
Oh, because God is omnipotent so God can do anything.
That is just not reality. God did not set the world up so He could intervene and prevent all suffering.
Humans are responsible to prevent their own suffering when they can and if they can't that's the breaks.

It is always God's fault isn't it? ...
Only it isn't.

An all powerful god could prevent anything. The end.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Question. If your house caught on fire.....
And you walked out. Is that preordained or common sense?
Or you stayed in and burnt up with it. Is that preordained or stupidity?

We do have choices. It's up to us to make those choices no matter what. Even if someone already knows the choices we will make. That of course is my opinion.
If I choose to walk out, it's only because whether or not I would walk out wasn't determined before I was born by the thing which created me. Otherwise, it's not a choice, it's something set in stone by incontrovertible truth long before I came on the scene.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Just what do you think "omnipotent" means? Heck, 'll even save you the time of having to look it up.

om·nip·o·tent
/ˌämˈnipəd(ə)nt/

adjective
adjective: omnipotent
1.(of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.

.
There is not some magic wand God can wave because He is omnipotent.
I am sick to death of that ploy, it is idiotic and inane.

"God can do anything because God is omnipotent."
What that means to an atheist is God should do what I think God should do because God is omnipotent.
They are so lacking in self-awareness they do not even realize that is what they are saying... sad, really. :(

What atheists completely miss, like the broad side of the barn, is that an omnipotent God only does what He chooses to do, not what they want Him to do. :rolleyes:

God could only do what this atheist thinks He could do by overriding free will and preventing people from making evil choices and making people make good choices. This is so obvious to anyone who can think.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
We choose to do what God knows we will choose to do.
It's that simple.

Some things are predestined so we cannot choose something else, but we cannot ever know what those things are so there is no point even thinking about them.
For example, maybe it was preordained that I have an auto accident. I did not choose that. It just happened. It was my fate.
No it is not that simple. You are suggesting that we do not have a choice by saying the outcome is already known.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
If I choose to walk out, it's only because whether or not I would walk out wasn't determined before I was born by the thing which created me. Otherwise, it's not a choice, it's something set in stone by incontrovertible truth long before I came on the scene.

Ah! But you do have choices. Even though a god might know your choice, you don't. So you have to choose. Knowing the choice you will make is not forcing you to make that choice. Which gives you options.
If you and I are traveling down a road that ends with a left turn or going over a cliff and I know you will take the left turn, does that mean I set your choice in stone?
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
If I choose to walk out, it's only because whether or not I would walk out wasn't determined before I was born by the thing which created me. Otherwise, it's not a choice, it's something set in stone by incontrovertible truth long before I came on the scene.

Not necessarily. Video games exist in which there are multiple endings and which ending we experience depends on the choices we make in the game.

So God could see where all our different choices in life lead to (like thinking multiple possible moves ahead in chess but unlimited). Therefore our choices in life aren't predetermined but the road that each possible choice leads to can be predicted.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No it is not that simple. You are suggesting that we do not have a choice by saying the outcome is already known.
Why can't you understand that what God knows in His realm of existence where there is no time is entirely separate from what happens in this material world realm of existence where time exists?

The outcome is already known because God knows the choices WE will make before, during and after we make them in this material world realm. God is not subject to time. God knows everything all at once.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well let's see. It would play out to less suffering, less death, more believers and more followers of god.
Do you mean if God took over and did everything for humans?
What a cop-out.

In order to do that, God would have to override the free will of everyone, essentially making humans into robots.
People would still die because we are mortal.
 
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