One atheist’s idea on how to prevent evil

[LightofTruth]

Removing the possibility of being able to do or desire to do bad ones.

The fact that a person can desire what is unlawful speaks first of the law and second of the nature of the person. God is not going to remove His law so His has to remove the sinful nature of the person. That's the reward of the righteous.
But who are the righteous? the faithful.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you feel like you have no free will when you don't have the urge or thought to do evil? Our actions in relation to morality is far more complex than a simply either-or. We have an entire rainbow and beyond of interactions to choose from.
But, that is, assuming free will exists. Our will is constrained to the point it can't be said to be free. It needs another word.

No, I do not feel I have no free will when I have no thoughts or urges to do evil because I do not want to do evil, but a murderer might feel like he has no free will if he wanted to do murder someone and couldn't because God fixed it so people could only make good choices.

Why would God be responsible to fix it so people could only make good choices, if that was even possible?
Why would God be evil because He did not prevent humans from doing evil?

I agree that our free will is constrained by many factors, so maybe we should just say that we have a will to act on our intentions.

 

[Trailblazer]

It would take care of the problem of evil.

It would, but there is another solution.
Bad people can learn to be good.

 

[LuisDantas]

As you can see he could not answer HOW a real omnipotent God could make only good choices available to humans.
I have asked him three or four times and still no answer,

How could an omnipotent God make only good choices available to humans? Any ideas?

Your question makes no sense, and could fairly be described as upside-down and inside-out.

Why? Because you are coming from the Christian conception of "free will" and attempting to build an argument from that.

Ingenuous, but crippled by the contradiction that sustains that concept. An Abrahamic-style god can't really work for that very reason: it is either limitless or limited by some esoteric need to make bad choices available to humans.

Of course, the whole exercise is of questionable value at best. A more useful approach for such esoterica would focus on wisdom and morality instead.

 

[LightofTruth]

Death isn't really related to this. The goal isn't getting rid of death, it's getting rid of our ability and desire to do evil. It wouldn't really be much if god made us all highly empathetic towards each other. Serial Killers probably wouldn't happen again if that were to happen. War would be over.

When a person realizes his complete inability to meet the just requirements of God's law he becomes an object of mercy.

 

[LightofTruth]

By evil, I think he means acts that hurt other people, like murder and rape.
Yes, anyone can be evil regardless of their beliefs or lack thereof.

Just the thought of murder or rape is evil itself. No one could be convicted of murder or rape for just having the thought of it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It would, but there is another solution.
Bad people can learn to be good.

Not always. People like Arthur Shawcross, you can't teach him to feel empathy for his victims or their family, or make him learn to feel remorse and guilt for what he did. And he did know it wasn't normal to feel like that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Free will is already illusory with an omnipotent, omnipresent god. Because you cannot choose against the absolute knowledge of your path your creator (intentionally or unintentionally) set you upon. What you were going to 'choose' was already determined long before you existed. You are simply going through the motions pre-ordained.

No, that is not true. God had not preordained everything that will happen in our lives. Some things are pre-ordained but we cannot know what those are so there is no point thinking about that.

Just because God is omniscient and knows what we will choose does not mean God causes us to choose. We create our own destiny by our free will choices and actions that follow. Free will has constraints but we are still free to make choices.

The alternative to free will is that we are pawns in God's game. God does not want pawns, that is why He gave us free will.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

When a person realizes his complete inability to meet the just requirements of God's law he becomes an object of mercy.

Is that what the Inquisitors and Conquistadors where? Objects of mercy?

 

[Trailblazer]

He uses his "god powers" (such as those used during Creation) on our brains, and develops our sense of empathy until all there is is love.

But God did not do that so it is a moot point now because God is not going to recreate humans.

God wants us to develop our own good qualities. That is the purpose of this earthly life.
That is why God gave us two natures, a higher noble spiritual nature and a lower selfish material nature.
God wants us to choose between those two natures and thereby become who we are.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, I do not feel I have no free will when I have no thoughts or urges to do evil because I do not want to do evil, but a murderer might feel like he has no free will if he wanted to do murder someone and couldn't because God fixed it so people could only make good choices.

The murder wouldn't be a murderer if there was no desire or intention to kill. They'd feel just like you: that their free will hasn't been taken away.

Why would God be responsible to fix it so people could only make good choices, if that was even possible?
Why would God be evil because He did not prevent humans from doing evil?

To make the world a better place and so we all get along. It makes him evil because he could fix the problem but instead he allows for suffering of extreme degrees to persist. Like WWII. Yes, god is very evil for allowing that to happen.

 

[Trailblazer]

It would take care of the problem of evil.

Humans can take care of the problem of evil by learning to be good.
If humans followed the teachings and laws of God they could not be evil.
That is the solution to the problem of evil.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But God did not do that so it is a moot point now because God is not going to recreate humans.

Then why even ask your OP?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Humans can take care of the problem of evil by learning to be good.
If humans followed the teachings and laws of God they could not be evil.
That is the solution to the problem of evil.

A book overloaded with examples of genocide and slavery that is claimed to be just?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The fact that a person can desire what is unlawful speaks first of the law and second of the nature of the person. God is not going to remove His law so His has to remove the sinful nature of the person. That's the reward of the righteous.
But who are the righteous? the faithful.

Then why participate in the thread, which asked "how can god go about getting rid of evil?" Not if he would or not.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

God is omniscient and knows what we will choose

Think about that for a moment. How can that statement possibly be true if we are free to choose?

 

[74x12]

I have an atheist poster on my forum who says it is god’s fault there is evil because god, if he exists, makes evil choices available to humans.

Atheist: Any being who would make evil choices available would be an evil being. Therefore, if god exists, god is to blame for evil, not humans.

He says that god could arrange it so only good choices are available for people to make and that would prevent evil.

So I asked him to explain precisely how God could make only good choices available to humans and I asked him to explain HOW this would play out in the real world we live in. Below is his answer:

Atheist: Try having a real omnipotent god who could see to that.

As you can see he could not answer HOW a real omnipotent God could make only good choices available to humans.
I have asked him three or four times and still no answer.

How could an omnipotent God make only good choices available to humans? Any ideas?

By taking away their ability to choose. But if God did that, then there could be no battle. Without battle there could be no victory. So it was necessary for the creation of what is truly good to proven what it is indeed for evil to exist. It provides the catalyst. It is the mountain for the climber or the battle for the warrior. You could say it is the fire for the gold to purify it.

But since God has appointed an end to what is evil and no end to what is good. Therefore it will all turn out very good in the end. What is good will have the benefit of being more perfect because it endured the existence of evil for a comparatively brief moment.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your question makes no sense, and could fairly be described as upside-down and inside-out.

I agree, but all I have to work with is what this atheist says.

An Abrahamic-style god can't really work for that very reason: it is either limitless or limited by some esoteric need to make bad choices available to humans.

I do not see how that limits God.

Of course, the whole exercise is of questionable value at best. A more useful approach for such esoterica would focus on wisdom and morality instead.

I fully agree. That is the solution to evil, but I can't make this atheist see that. He thinks evil is god's responsibility because god (if he exists) is omnipotent.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

God is omniscient and knows what we will choose

Think about that for a moment. How can that statement possibly be true if we are free to choose?

 

[Trailblazer]

Just the thought of murder or rape is evil itself. No one could be convicted of murder or rape for just having the thought of it.

But in a sense they are evil, just not as evil as someone who committed a murder or rape.
Didn't Jesus say that if it is in our thoughts that is as bad as if we did it?
I am not that familiar with the Bible but I seem to remember Him saying that having to do with adultery.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not always. People like Arthur Shawcross, you can't teach him to feel empathy for his victims or their family, or make him learn to feel remorse and guilt for what he did. And he did know it wasn't normal to feel like that.

Not everyone learns although the opportunity is there.
It is a complex issue why some people end up as they do and cannot change.
Just because he knew it was not normal does not make what he did okay.