Once Saved Always Saved?

[e.r.m.]

I'll start off small.

How does the aforementioned belief reconcile with the scripture below?
(KJV) Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

(NASB) Romans 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

I would also like to hear any possible scripture to justify the following phrase:
"If a person leaves God, then they were never saved to begin with."

Thank you.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I'll start off small.
How does the aforementioned belief reconcile with the scripture below?
(KJV) Romans 11 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
(NASB) Romans 11 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

I would also like to hear any possible scripture to justify the following phrase:
"If a person leaves God, then they were never saved to begin with."

Thank you.

The best answer I have is where James speaks of fruit inspection.

"Faith without works is dead".

 

[e.r.m.]

The best answer I have is where James speaks of fruit inspection.

"Faith without works is dead".

Thank you reverend, I looked it up and found this

James 2:14 "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds?..."

The passage about faith without works refers to those who claim to have faith, a different group than those who leave God.

P.S. - Nice dog.

 

[InChrist]

I'll start off small.

How does the aforementioned belief reconcile with the scripture below?
(KJV) Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

(NASB) Romans 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

The context of these verses shows they are in reference to the nation of Israel which God has temporarily cut off as His elect instrument in the world, at their rejection of Christ, while He now uses the church. They are not about individuals losing their salvation.

I would also like to hear any possible scripture to justify the following phrase:
"If a person leaves God, then they were never saved to begin with."

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:28-29

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. 2 Cor. 1:21-22



I will not post the related verse(s) here right now, but if a person is truly saved and born-again and made a new creation in Christ as the scriptures indicate occurs, then that person will be saved. They can ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit and sin, miss out on eternal rewards in heaven, and possibly even have their life cut short here on earth, but a new creation is a new creation and a born-again person cannot be unborn. The scriptural reality is, though, that one who is truly born-again will bear good fruit.

 

[McBell]

I'll start off small.

How does the aforementioned belief reconcile with the scripture below?
(KJV) Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

(NASB) Romans 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

I would also like to hear any possible scripture to justify the following phrase:
"If a person leaves God, then they were never saved to begin with."

Thank you.

Revelation 22:19 is all one needs to show that "once saved, always saved" is not true.

 

[e.r.m.]

The context of these verses shows they are in reference to the nation of Israel which God has temporarily cut off as His elect instrument in the world, at their rejection of Christ, while He now uses the church. They are not about individuals losing their salvation.

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:28-29

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. 2 Cor. 1:21-22


I will not post the related verse(s) here right now, but if a person is truly saved and born-again and made a new creation in Christ as the scriptures indicate occurs, then that person will be saved. They can ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit and sin, miss out on eternal rewards in heaven, and possibly even have their life cut short here on earth, but a new creation is a new creation and a born-again person cannot be unborn. The scriptural reality is, though, that one who is truly born-again will bear good fruit.

I respect your response. It is direct in answering, direct in scripture reference, and well thought out. Thank you. Sadly still wrong.

The context of these verses shows they are in reference to the nation of Israel which God has temporarily cut off as His elect instrument in the world, at their rejection of Christ, while He now uses the church. They are not about individuals losing their salvation.
1. He is at the very least addressing gentiles, no way with the following verses could Paul be talking exclusively to Jews, when he says you:
Romans 7:7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
13 I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters,[a] that I planned many times to come to you (but have been prevented from doing so until now) in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other Gentiles.
14 I am obligated both to Greeks and non-Greeks, both to the wise and the foolish. 15 That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are in Rome.
Then Paul adresses the you again:
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Paul gives the context of "cut off" several verses later 26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
The context and the instruction for the Jewish and Gentile christians in Rome is not about being temporarily cut off as His elect instrument in the world, it's about salvation.

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:28-29
Just because no one can 'take' them from His hand doesn't mean they cannot leave on their own.
(NIV) Matthew 24:10-13
At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, [11] and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. [12] Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, [13] but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
It is also not exclusive to just right before the end times.
Matthew 11:6
Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me."
Luke 14:28-30
"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? [29] For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, [30] saying, `This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.'
2 Peter 2:21-22
It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. [22] Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
Hebrews 3:12
See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. 2 Cor. 1:21-22
Does it say a guarantee of what? I read it and it seems the guarantee is referring to God's part, not violating our free will.
(KJV) 2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure

The scriptural reality is, though, that one who is truly born-again will bear good fruit.
Agreed.

If a person is truly saved and born-again and made a new creation in Christ as the scriptures indicate occurs, then that person will be saved. They can ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit and sin, miss out on eternal rewards in heaven, and possibly even have their life cut short here on earth,
Seems to me they'll miss out on a lot more than that.
Hebrews 10:27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

but a new creation is a new creation and a born-again person cannot be unborn. I will not post the related verse(s) here right now
Look forward to these verses when you're ready.

 

[e.r.m.]

Revelation 22:19 is all one needs to show that "once saved, always saved" is not true.

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Good one! Thanks!

 

[Katzpur]

I'll start off small.

How does the aforementioned belief reconcile with the scripture below?
(KJV) Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

(NASB) Romans 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

I would also like to hear any possible scripture to justify the following phrase:
"If a person leaves God, then they were never saved to begin with."

Thank you.

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible to justify the "once saved, always saved" mentality. Period. How absolutely preposterous to think that all a person has to do to be saved is believe in Christ for one brief period of time and can later reject Him and everything He stood for and suffer no consequences for this change of heart.

 

[e.r.m.]

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible to justify the "once saved, always saved" mentality. Period. How absolutely preposterous to think that all a person has to do to be saved is believe in Christ for one brief period of time and can later reject Him and everything He stood for and suffer no consequences for this change of heart.

Although I agree with you, that's not their teaching. They teach that such a person was never actually saved.

 

[Iti oj]

well since god saves us all then once saved always saved....i mean he/she/it is all forgiving? then yep were all saved so once saved always saved.... cause he loves us

 

[McBell]

Although I agree with you, that's not their teaching. They teach that such a person was never actually saved.

that is why Revelation 22:19 is so damaging to their claim.

They have to try and explain away why god would put someone on the "saved" list if they were not "truly" saved.

 

[e.r.m.]

well since god saves us all then once saved always saved....i mean he/she/it is all forgiving? then yep were all saved so once saved always saved.... cause he loves us

I'm hoping you will make at least some attempt to justify what you have said with scripture-specifically.

 

[e.r.m.]

that is why Revelation 22:19 is so damaging to their claim.

They have to try and explain away why god would put someone on the "saved" list if they were not "truly" saved.

I agree.

 

[Katzpur]

Although I agree with you, that's not their teaching. They teach that such a person was never actually saved.

That sounds like a nice way out of a awkward situation to me.

 

[Iti oj]

I'm hoping you will make at least some attempt to justify what you have said with scripture-specifically.

do i have to? ehh i guess its that section fo the forum.....
[SIZE=+4]He who does not love has not become acquainted with God [does not and never did know Him], for God is love. 1 John 4: 8
[/SIZE][SIZE=+4]But God shows and clearly proves His [own] love for us by the fact that while we were still sinners, Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) died for us. Romans 5: 8

[/SIZE]
For whom the Lord loves He corrects, even as a father corrects the son in whom he delights. Proverbs 3: 12


But God--so rich is He in His mercy! Because of and in order to satisfy the great and wonderful and intense love with which He loved us. Ephesians 2: 4

I give you a new commandment: that you should love one another. Just as I have loved you, so you too should love one another.
John 13: 34

By this shall all [men] know that you are My disciples, if you love one another [if you keep on showing love among yourselves].
John 13: 35


[SIZE=+4]For if you forgive people their trespasses [their reckless and willful sins, leaving them, letting them go, and giving up resentment], your heavenly Father will also forgive you. Matthew 6: 14[/SIZE]


[SIZE=+4]For I will be merciful and gracious toward their sins and I will remember their deeds of unrighteousness no more.
[URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Hebrews%208:%2012;&version=45;"]Hebrews 8: 12[/SIZE][/URL]


[URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Hebrews%208:%2012;&version=45;"][SIZE=+4]For You, O Lord, are good, and ready to forgive [our trespasses, sending them away, letting them go completely and forever]; and You are abundant in mercy and loving-kindness to all those who call upon You.
[URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Psalm%2086:%205;&version=45;"]Psalm 86: 5[/SIZE][/URL][/URL]

 

[e.r.m.]

That sounds like a nice way out of a awkward situation to me.

Totally!

 

[e.r.m.]

do i have to? ehh i guess its that section fo the forum.....
[SIZE=+4]He who does not love has not become acquainted with God [does not and never did know Him], for God is love. 1 John 4: 8
[/SIZE][SIZE=+4]But God shows and clearly proves His [own] love for us by the fact that while we were still sinners, Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) died for us. Romans 5: 8

[/SIZE]
For whom the Lord loves He corrects, even as a father corrects the son in whom he delights. Proverbs 3: 12


But God--so rich is He in His mercy! Because of and in order to satisfy the great and wonderful and intense love with which He loved us. Ephesians 2: 4

I give you a new commandment: that you should love one another. Just as I have loved you, so you too should love one another.
John 13: 34

By this shall all [men] know that you are My disciples, if you love one another [if you keep on showing love among yourselves].
John 13: 35


[SIZE=+4]For if you forgive people their trespasses [their reckless and willful sins, leaving them, letting them go, and giving up resentment], your heavenly Father will also forgive you. Matthew 6: 14[/SIZE]


[SIZE=+4]For I will be merciful and gracious toward their sins and I will remember their deeds of unrighteousness no more.
[SIZE=+4][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Hebrews%208:%2012;&version=45;"]Hebrews 8: 12[/SIZE][/SIZE][/URL]


[URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Hebrews%208:%2012;&version=45;"][SIZE=+4]For You, O Lord, are good, and ready to forgive [our trespasses, sending them away, letting them go completely and forever]; and You are abundant in mercy and loving-kindness to all those who call upon You.
[SIZE=+4][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=Psalm%2086:%205;&version=45;"]Psalm 86: 5[/SIZE][/SIZE][/URL][/URL]

Thank you.

You have, as many do, described God's part well. Scripture also describes our part for our forgiveness/salvation.

-John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [b]only begotten Son of God.

-Luke 13:5 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

-Acts 17:30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge [u]the world in righteousness [v]through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men [w]by raising Him from the dead.”

-Romans 10:9 [a]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, [b]resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [c]resulting in salvation.

-Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and [a]Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were [b]pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “[c]Brethren, [d]what shall we do?” 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

-Matthew 24:10 At that time many will [d]fall away and will [e]betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, [f]most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

-Hebrews 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

In the light of these, the scriptures you quoted above are not universal to everyone, and hence your position "once saved always saved since God saves all of us", is not true.

 

[Reverend Rick]

That sounds like a nice way out of a awkward situation to me.

I have to agree it does have a certain aroma to it.

 

[e.r.m.]

I believe the OSAS, like the baptism/works fallacy, is based on philosophic dualism. "Man cannot participate in his own salvation because flesh is corrupt", by the same principle, he cannot participate in canceling his salvation. So the logic, the idea that he was never saved, was developed.

 

[InChrist]

Anyone who truly knows and belongs to Jesus Christ (John 17:3; 1 Cor.2:16; 2 Cor. 4:6; 2 Cor. 13:5; Eph. 3:4, 19; Phil. 3:8; 1 John 5:20) who is born-again (John 3:3, 1 Peter 1:23), a new creation in Christ ( 2 Cor. 5:17, Gal. 6:15) and sealed for the day of redemption (2 Cor. 1:22, Eph. 1:13, Eph. 4:30) cannot lose their salvation. It is impossible. As in the example of Peter when Jesus asked the disciples, “Do you also want to go away?” But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. John 6:67-68. Later out of fear, Peter denied that he knew Christ three times, yet he was then grieved with sorrow for doing so and continued on to be a strong, faithful follower of Christ even facing a martyr’s death. A true believer whose life has been transformed by the power of Christ may falter and have struggles with the flesh, but they will never completely turn from Christ and lose salvation. Anyone who claims to have been a Christian and yet totally turns and rejects Christ may have known religion about Christ, but they never knew Jesus Christ personally or placed their complete trust in Him alone.