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Once Saved Always Saved vs. Lose Your Salvation

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Carl Unger, Jul 19, 2005.

  1. Carl Unger

    Carl Unger New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Do you believe that once we are saved we can't lose our salvation (OSAS) or do you believe that it is possible to lose your salvation (LYS) once you are saved?
    If you have little knowledge of this topic, then please read the following verses.
    The below verses can be used on both sides of the story.

    Hebrews 6:4-6
    John 10:27-29
    Hebrews 10:29
    Revelations 3:5
    Ephesians 4:30
    Hebrews 10:29-29
    Hebrews 10:38-39
     
  2. may

    may New Member

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    3,665
    yes, we can most certainly lose our salvation .if we draw away from God he will draw away from us
    Beware, brothers, for fear there should ever develop in any one of YOU a wicked heart lacking faith by drawing away from the living God hebrews 3;12

     
  3. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus Staff Member

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    28,683
    Hi Carl,

    Before I answer your question (or at least attempt to), as I noticed that this is your first post on the forum, that I would like to welcome you to this great family.

    You might like to have a look at :- Articles for New Members ; from there, there is a link to the forum rules, which you also ought to see.


    Seeing as you have given me a whole load of reading to do, before I aswer your question, perhaps you might like to post on:-
    Are you new to ReligiousForums.com? in order to introduce yourself to everyone.

    Hope you like it here.......:)
     
  4. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    4,416
    Frankly, OSAS is complete nonsense and dangerous nonsense at that. If it were true then all we'd have to do is say 'I believe' and we'd go to heaven no matter what we did later - even Hitler and Stalin would qualify for heaven on those terms, Hitler having started life as a Roman Catholic and Stalin having been a Georgian Orthodox seminarian.

    James
     
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  5. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus Staff Member

    Messages:
    28,683
    Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

    This passage (Hebrews 6:4-6) has been very controversial, the argument having to do with whether or not it teaches that a true Christian can lose his salvation. One very clear teaching that emerges, however, is that a person can only be saved once. If a true Christian actually could fall away and be lost again, he would be eternally lost; it would be impossible to bring him again to repentance.
    6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

    In context, the author of Hebrews was warning the Jews, who had professed faith in Christ, not to relapse back into Jewish legalism and ritualism, but rather to go on to full maturity in Christ

    6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    "If they shall fall away" from the true faith, having once fully understood it ("been enlightened," having been made "partakers of the Holy Ghost," etc.), then they can never return.

    John 10 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    The Lord resumed His use of the sheep and shepherd "proverb;" evidently it had made a lasting impression on His questioners, even after so long a time (see note on John 10:22). He now stressed the permanence of this relationship (John 5:24).


    10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    Not only is eternal life a present possession, but the good Shepherd assures us that no one ("any man" is actually "anyone," including Satan himself) could ever take it away.


    10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    "Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand" (Psalm 37:24).

    Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    These descriptions of the willful sin (Hebrews 10:26) make it clear that it is the unforgivable sin of willful, knowledgeable apostasy from the faith.

    Revelations 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    All whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15), and all who reject the words of Scripture will have their names blotted out (see note on Revelation 22:19). On the other hand, those who overcome will never compromise their faith in Christ, even at the risk of their lives (Revelation 13:8). It seems probable that all who enter the world have their names in the Lamb's book of life and are safe in Him until they reach an age of accountability and become conscious sinners. At that point they are spiritually dead and need salvation, but their names are not actually blotted out of the book of life until they have irrevocably rejected Christ.


    Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption

    The "sealed work" (Ephesians 1:13) of the Spirit is conclusive, and it cannot be "unsealed," even though we may "grieve" the Spirit by such sins as noted in these verses.

    Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
    This is the last of the three quotations in the New Testament of Habakkuk 2:4 (Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11).

    10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    "Believe" here is the same as "have faith." The emphasis throughout Hebrews 11 on "faith" is simply a recital of the outworking of the faith introduced into the discussion here in Hebrews 10:38,39 (there were no chapter divisions in the original manuscript). Thus the working faith of Hebrews 11 is the living faith of Hebrews 10:38 and the saving faith of Hebrews 10:39, and that faith must be exercised first of all on the creation as the work of God (Hebrews 11:3).


    Having provided the verses for everyone to ponder over, there have been replies - How do you guys do it?

    I think I see things differently from you James -LYS seems to be the 'message' .:jam:
     
  6. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Living Dead Girl

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    20,780
    Religion:
    Ask me when I'm dead.
    I am just curious. Has anyone besides me went to a church that taught both OSAS and LYS? One Sunday the pastor taught of LYS, then the next Monday night at a youth group meeting, the youth pastor taught of OSAS.

    Im not Christian, so I know this isn't my place to debate, but I have to agree with Cynic, May, Jacob, and Micheal.
     
  7. Carl Unger

    Carl Unger New Member

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    9
    There is also another question....
    Once Salvation is Lost, can it ever be regained?

    now you may quote Hebrews 6:4-6 which says that they can't be renewed again.
    but I believe that these apostates cannot be renewed unto repentence whilst they are Recrucifying him and bringing him to an open shame.

    Here is why:
    in other words, they cannot be renewed unto repentance whilethey are presently crucifying Christ and bringing him to an open shame.
    Feel free to disagree.....
     
  8. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    4,416
    Well, actually for us the idea of once saved always saved is true if looked at in a certain light but you can definitely fall away from Christ whilst alive (sort of lose your salvation).

    The thing is that neither idea actually makes sense in the context of Orthodoxy.

    Nobody really is saved now (though it may be that if they dropped dead at this moment they would be) and so it is impossible to lose your salvation - you were never 'saved' to begin with. Once you actually are saved you're already dead and so there's not really any opportunity to backslide, which means we do sort of believe in OSAS, just not while you're alive (which of course means our soteriology is actually very different).

    For us salvation is a process not an event. We run the race and if we stay the course we will be saved. If we don't stay the course then we will not. Asking me if I'm 'saved' is like asking me if I'm at the finish line while I'm still running and asking me if salvation can be lost is therefore equally nonsensical. The whole issue seems to only affect those who consider themselves Protestant, Reformed or Non-Denominational - who all look rather alike from my perspective.

    James
     
  9. true blood

    true blood New Member

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    848
    How do you explain verses like
    Romans 4:1-3: What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [the believing] was counted unto him for righteousness.

    You have said it's nonsense but Romans 4:1-3 conflicts with your statements. You know, if Martin Luther had been able to live another thirty, forty, sixty or one hundred years, he might have brought about a major reformation. Only a partial one. He did not live long enough and neither did some others. Much of Protestanism today still has vestiges of its Roman Catholic background. But Martin Luther did see accurate principles from God's Word. One he saw is found in the Book of Romans which declares that man is justified by faith. He realized that salvation is not of works, but by faith and by the grace of God. But also Romans shows the differnce between receiving righteousness by works and righteousness by grace. He explains both of them, that's the point. OSAS is not nonsense. The Word explains righteousness by faith and on top of that explains righteousness by works in Romans 4:4 "Now to him that worketh [he that does good works] is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." The bible explains very simply that if we work for something, we have earned what we receive. Abraham didn't work for righteousness. He believed God and God did what? Counted it to him or reckoned it unto him for righteousness. I don't even see why this is a debate. Even David also described the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works. By all means I think everyone should do good works but for someone to make claims to christianity and say righteousness with faith is nonsense cannont stand approved before God.
     
  10. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus Staff Member

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    28,683
    True Blood;​
    Does this help?​
    4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?​

    4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. ​
    The supposed contradiction between Paul and James has been widely noted. Paul says Abraham was not justified by works; James says he was (James 2:21). The point is that Abraham was justified by faith in God's Word, but he then was asked to demonstrate that his faith was genuine by his works. He was justified before God by faith but was justified before men by his works (James 2:21-24).

    4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. ​
    The Scripture cited is Genesis 15:6. As Paul notes later (Romans 4:9-15), Abraham was justified by faith before he was given the sign of circumcision (Genesis 17:9-14) and before the law was given, so justification by faith is God's original and basic standard (a genuine faith in God and His Word, a faith which then causes one to obey God's Word).
    Word).:)
     
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  11. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

    Messages:
    4,416
    Exactly. I have to ask, though, exactly why OSAS and justification by faith alone (neither of which make sense to me) are so closely linked by True Blood. Luther did teach justification by faith alone but he did not teach OSAS. I was brought up Lutheran so I know what I'm saying here. It is perfectly possible to believe in one and not the other, so it would seem that True Blood needs to come up with evidence that salvation cannot be lost, not that salvation is through faith alone. By the way, I don't disagree that salvation comes through faith. It's the alone bit I disagree with - faith alone is no faith at all as James points out, but then that's why Luther questioned the authenticity of his epistle.

    Anyway, if the OSAS crowd are right, then I could now go off and become a Hindu and I'd still be saved despite my renunciation of the faith, because my salvation couldn't be lost (and I'm deliberately avoiding all talk of works here). How does that make sense?

    James
     
  12. Carl Unger

    Carl Unger New Member

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    I don't believe in eternal security however, most eternal securists say that these people were never saved to begin with + there is kind of a division with eternal security.
    There is unconditional Eternal Security and Conditional Eternal Security
     
  13. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

    Messages:
    4,416
    I'm sure you're right, but then what's the point of OSAS at all? We say that it's impossible to 'be saved' in this lifetime because you could still renounce the faith. OSAS people say that if you're saved, you're saved and that's it and that if you renounce the faith then you were never saved in the first place. The wording may be different but the practical implications are the same - nobody knows who will be saved in this lifetime and just because you believe now doesn't mean you'll stay the course. Someone who truly believes in OSAS, however, and truly believes they are saved now, then has no incentive to keep up the struggle because the logical outcome of their belief is that they'll go to heaven no matter what. That's why I regard OSAS as dangerous nonsense.

    James
     
  14. true blood

    true blood New Member

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    848
    If someone confesses Christ as the Lord in their life, their confession is a reality to them. In their heart they know He is Lord because they believed God has raised Him from the dead. When one confesses that they are a new creature in Christ, old things pass away and all things become new according to their confession. If one confesses that they are a son of God and the Bible says that they are a son, then they are a son of God. If their confession is that they are an heir of the Father, then everything that the Father has becomes theirs because they are confessing exactly what The Word says.


    Palms 18:33 "He maketh my feet like hind's feet, and setteth me upon my high places."

    A hind is a mother deer, one of the most surefooted animals in the world. When she goes up the side of a mountain with her young following her, she takes her back feet and places them exactly where her front feet were first placed to test for loose stones on the slope. If she did not test that rocky incline with her front feet, the stones would cause her to slip and fall down into the ravine below. This exact tracking means life both to the hind and to her young. "He maketh my feet like hinds' feet". He maketh them. That is, He makes it so that I may learn to walk by The Word so that my "hind feet" will track with my "front feet (representing The Word)." Thus, where The Word has set its feet, there also will I put my feet.

    Romans tells us how dear and how powerful God's children are. 8:35-37 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us". I'm not just saying this. God said it. Do you believe God's Word? 38, 39 "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principlalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" This is the declared, confirmed Word of God. When one begins to confess that Word, it becomes a reality in their life. Scripture mostly teaches that until that time of confession, one will be defeated by satanic principalities and powers on every hand because of ones confession. Know the Word, confess The Word and act upon The Word. Learn what and how to confess. Confess from the heart, with your mouth, what has been confirmed by The Word. Confess what the Bible says you are, not what you think you are, not what your next door neighbor says you are, not what your best friend may say you are, not what some "Bishop" says you are. Hold fast to what The Word says. And always remember this, institutionalized Christianity will always be corrupt. Neither Jesus Christ nor God Almighty ever established an institution or a denomination, but God did establish the truth of His Word and the fellowship of the like-minded believers who are called Christians in the Bible.

    I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

    Our righteousness is born within for we have received the righteousness of God in Christ, and we have Christ in us the hope of glory. Now that we are born again, we have the seed from God in Christ in us which is the gift of holy spirit. Christ was of the seed of Abraham, both according to his flesh and by his believing. And now God has created Christ in us on account of our believing. Therefore, it is by believing that we are of the seed of Abraham.
     
  15. true blood

    true blood New Member

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    848
    Michel, this is helpful. I think it teaches that "in the eyes of men" good works are justified but "in the eyes of God" faith is justified.
     
  16. SoliDeoGloria

    SoliDeoGloria New Member

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    468
    First off, I would like to point out that every church I have been to that taught that one could lose their salvation also taught that they could gain it back. Being as how, gaining one's salvation back after it has been lost is not taught anywhere in the Bible, one has to consider whether those who profess to have "gotten saved again" didn't just go through a period of "backsliding" rather than lose their salvation.

    On top of that, how many sins does it take to lose one's salvation? Even if it took apostacy or the 'impardinable sin", blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, is there anywhere in the Bible that supports that one can actually do this when they are saved and therefore have the Holy Spirit inside them? (1John 1:19-23,27)

    As far as incentive goes, R.C. Sproul dealt with this issue quite well in his book "Chosen by God". His answer to this is simply that our incentive comes from God telling us to. "Good works" is a biproduct and result of true faith(James 2:14-26), it shouldn't have to be "goaded" any more than that. If you are truly saved, then do you really need any more incentive than that? If you do, then I would question what is truly your outlook and inspiration for life. Is it worldly or Godly? Anyways, being as how
    and you really need another incentive for following the great commission, use curiosity. In other words, if you want to get an idea of who will be saved, start making disciples and watch which one are being regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

    So, is OSAS dangerous nonsnese when compared to preaching that if one loses their salvation they can just gain it back and need more incentive than God to do what God tells them? I think not.

    Sincerely,
    SoliDeoGloria
     
  17. khan1955

    khan1955 New Member

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    I think if one"truely" beleves and that is between Jesus and you,you will go to be with Jesus,that is the once saved always saved part the rest is how much do we strive for for crowns in heaven,for rememer Paul himself said that he does things he doesn't want to do,because the life we live now is a human one rife with all the sin power over the flesh,but once we believe we are counted for rightness and being justifed in him who died for us,so we can't boast that we did it ourselves.
     
  18. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus Staff Member

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    28,683
    The part I find so hard to cope with is that being a human, I am only human (sounds silly, I know) - but to me, that means that I am permanently under pressure not to sin - and I'm afraid that I don't come up 'to scratch'. I sometimes think that to be human and not to sin is a total impossibility...........:(
     
  19. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Messages:
    25,149
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    First of all, I'm not aware of anywhere in the Bible where salvation is spoken of in the present tense. I've heard a lot of Christians say they are saved, but I'm not quite sure why.

    Matthew 10: 22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

    Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    In all of these passages, salvation comes only after the trial of faith and not at the moment of conversion.
     
  20. joeboonda

    joeboonda New Member

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    2,780
    those verses are all bout folks living through the tribulation. ! John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? Salvation is a free gift granted at the moment one believes in or trusts in Christ, that is that his work on the cross was sufficient
     
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