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ONCE AGAIN! Facts in the Bible is supported by archaeology.

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Excessively vague "prophecies" coming true are not very convincing. By your standards there should be a book of Nostradamus.

Edit: And if you want to even begin to call the Bible correct because of one supposedly fulfilled prophecies, you first have to deal with the Amazing failures of the Bible.

What failures?
I would say that more than half of all the base prophetic themes
of the bible have been fulfilled.

Creation of Israel
Creation of a Judean monarchy
Loss of Israel in captivity I
Return of Israel
Advent of the Messiah as Redeemer
Loss of Israel in captivity II
Return of Israel II (still ongoing)
Falling away of the Gentiles from Christianity (still ongoing)
Global war through Israel (not yet)
Advent of Messiah as King (not yet)

Can't you see this? Even the return of the Jews to Israel today
is something that should be marveled at.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What failures?
I would say that more than half of all the base prophetic themes
of the bible have been fulfilled.

Creation of Israel
Creation of a Judean monarchy
Loss of Israel in captivity I
Return of Israel
Advent of the Messiah as Redeemer
Loss of Israel in captivity II
Return of Israel II (still ongoing)
Falling away of the Gentiles from Christianity (still ongoing)
Global war through Israel (not yet)
Advent of Messiah as King (not yet)

Can't you see this? Even the return of the Jews to Israel today
is something that should be marveled at.
One can't be much of a scholar of the Bible, or at least not an honest scholar not to know if the failed prophecies. They tend to have a specific person or an email obvious deadline. And technically almost all prophecies fail just by being overly vague.

But let's begin with an obvious one. It quickly disqualifies those that cannot accept what the Bible says. They Tyre prophesy clearly had Nebuchadnezzar and the king of Tyre in mind as the subjects of that prophesy. Nebby was supposed to defeat Tyre and make it never exist again.. He failed.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Also, we now know that many of the "prophecies" were "predicted' after the events had already occurred.

Anyhow, just to be clear, I don't really have much of an opinion on this one way or the other as I can't relive events that did or did not take place thousands of years ago. So I take the "Whatever happened, happened" point of view.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Also, we now know that many of the "prophecies" were "predicted' after the events had already occurred.

Anyhow, just to be clear, I don't really have much of an opinion on this one way or the other as I can't relive events that did or did not take place thousands of years ago. So I take the "Whatever happened, happened" point of view.
That is one reason I usually bring up the Tyre prophesy. It was to be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, never to be rebuilt, or even found again. It was also a minor prophesy that people should be willing to let go. And lastly even Zeke admitted that it was a failed prophecy and he promptly makes another failed prophecy. But we instead see believers disqualify themselves from the debate.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
That is one reason I usually bring up the Tyre prophesy. It was to be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, never to be rebuilt, or even found again. It was also a minor prophesy that people should be willing to let go. And lastly even Zeke admitted that it was a failed prophecy and he promptly makes another failed prophecy. But we instead see believers disqualify themselves from the debate.
One of the things I so much like about the "Jewish Study Bible" by the JPS is that it is brutally honest about things like this whereas they'll use archaeological evidence to show that a particular event is scripturally attributed to the wrong person and/or the wrong time period. Therefore, my approach to scripture is to essentially use it as allegory.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
No, the gospels are anonymous.
They all start with Euangélion katà Maththaîon; which is how Greek writers say "as told to me by".
I just checked Matthew at BibleHub
History is not written this way.
I agree. But many believers do not. Many believers believe it is an accurate representation of history. In the case of the Jesus quotes, an accurate word for word representation of history.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
One of the things I so much like about the "Jewish Study Bible" by the JPS is that it is brutally honest about things like this whereas they'll use archaeological evidence to show that a particular event is scripturally attributed to the wrong person and/or the wrong time period. Therefore, my approach to scripture is to essentially use it as allegory.
That is reasonable. It is when one makes the error of worshiping the Bible as a perfect source that one ends up refuting one's own religion. Too many people make a "false idol" of the Bible itself. That to me has always been rather blasphemous.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Pretty much in Luke 1:

"1 Many people have set out to write accounts about the events that have been fulfilled among us. 2 They used the eyewitness reports circulating among us from the early disciples. 3 Having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I also have decided to write an accurate account for you, most honorable Theophilus, 4 so you can be certain of the truth of everything you were taught."

The stories supposedly came from eyewitnesses originally, but once handed down would no longer qualify as such.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Pretty much in Luke 1:

"1 Many people have set out to write accounts about the events that have been fulfilled among us. 2 They used the eyewitness reports circulating among us from the early disciples. 3 Having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I also have decided to write an accurate account for you, most honorable Theophilus, 4 so you can be certain of the truth of everything you were taught."
Interesting. Thanks.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The Bible is the word of God.
How do we know the Bible is the word of God.
The Bible says it is the word of God.
It does not even make that claim. The Bible as we know it was not completed and assembled until the third century at the earliest. People have to take verses out of context to even try to support that claim. When one looks at those verses in context at best they were referring only to some, and not even necessarily all, of the books of the Old Testament. There is nowhere in the Bible that in context refers to the New Testament as the "word of God". Ask a Christian to support their claim in regards to the whole Bible and they will fail.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
One can't be much of a scholar of the Bible, or at least not an honest scholar not to know if the failed prophecies. They tend to have a specific person or an email obvious deadline. And technically almost all prophecies fail just by being overly vague.

But let's begin with an obvious one. It quickly disqualifies those that cannot accept what the Bible says. They Tyre prophesy clearly had Nebuchadnezzar and the king of Tyre in mind as the subjects of that prophesy. Nebby was supposed to defeat Tyre and make it never exist again.. He failed.

I can't speak to every prophecy in the bible.
I had to Google this particular one as I have
never heard of it.
I speak to the broad themes, those which
are repeated over and over, and have a
spiritual nature to them.
As for "Nebby" I understand that the
prophecy was for Israeli captivity and
return. And Babylon would never be
inhabited again. That's actually what
happened.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Perhaps you should be asking how we know that it is a myth. For example Luke totally botched his nativity myth. That is why no serious scholar takes that part of Luke's work seriously at all.

In fact both Matthew and Luke fabricated a nativity story so naturally they do not agree with each other. At one point in time Matthew's lineage was argued to be that of Mary's. There is no legitimate reason to think that either is correct.

Subduction Zone wrote………Perhaps you should be asking how we know that it is a myth. For example Luke totally botched his nativity myth. That is why no serious scholar takes that part of Luke's work seriously at all.

The Anointed………Perhaps it is your Ignorance to the truth as revealed in scripture that makes you erroneously believe that Luke botched his nativity story.

Subduction Zone wrote…….In fact both Matthew and Luke fabricated a nativity story so naturally they do not agree with each other. At one point in time Matthew's lineage was argued to be that of Mary's. There is no legitimate reason to think that either is correct. Perhaps you should be asking how we know that it is a myth. For example Luke totally botched his nativity myth. That is why no serious scholar takes that part of Luke's work seriously at all.


The Anointed…….If you were capable of comprehending the scriptures that in your ignorance you attack, you would know that the genealogy in Matthew is that of Joseph the son of Jacob, who married the already pregnant Mary,

Matthew’s nativity story tells us that Jesus was born in the town of Bethlehem, which agrees with Luke.

Matthew states that the birth of Jesus happened to make come true, what the Lord had said through his Prophet Isaiah, and that was, that an [ALMAH] ‘an unmarried woman’ who is pregnant will bear a son and he would be called “God is with us.” And we Know that the Lord God our saviour, who filled the man Jesus with his spirit, and who, from within his chosen earthly temple, [The Man Jesus] he spoke his WORDS to us.

Deuteronomy 18: 18; YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, says to Moses; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he and he shall speak to them all that I command, and whosoever will not heed MY WORDS which he shall speak in my name, I will punish, etc.

Destroy this Temple [Which temple was The Man Jesus] said the Lord, and in three days I will raise it up.

Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

Acts 17: 31; For the Lord has fixed a day [And that day is the Lords day of one thousand years, the great Sabbath, of which Paul says is the future reality of which the weekly Sabbath was but a shadow] in which he will judge the whole world with Justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death. _________________________

It was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, (The Son of Man, the MOST HIGH in the creation) who said through his obedient servant Jesus; “Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up.”

Matthew goes on to record the genealogy of Joseph ben Jacob, who married Mary, who was already pregnant to her Half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios III or Heli.

If Jesus had been genetically connected with Joseph the son of Jacob, he would have had no chance of sitting on the throne of his ancestor ‘King David.” As Joseph ben Jacob was a descendant of the cursed ‘Jehoiachin,’ of who the Lord said through Jeremiah 22: 30; “Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days; for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.”

But we know from Luke that Jesus was actually the son of Joseph ben Heli a descendant of Nathan the prophet, the son of Bathsheba and Uriah, who was adopted by King David after the death of Uriah.

The Talmud states, "Whoever brings up an orphan in his home is regarded...as though the child had been born to him." (Sanhedrin 119b).” In other words, the adopted child is to be treated as a child born to the father of that house, which means, that Heli and his descendants, who were born from the genetic line of Nathan ‘the prophet,’ who was the adopted son of King David, were legitimate heirs to King David, but not to the throne of Israel, as the prophesied Messiah had to come through the genetic line of Solomon.

Heli and his descendants only became heirs to the throne of David, through Nathan the adopted son of King David, when Naria, a descendant of Nathan, married Tamar, a female descendant of King Solomon, who bore to Naria a son by the name “Salathiel.” After the death of Naria, Tamar was taken to wife by King Jehoiachin, whose only son with Tamar, was Zedekiah who died prematurely in Childhood.

Salathiel was not of the seed of Jehoiachin.

According to Torah law, Nathan the adopted son of King David and his descendants, were legitimate heirs of King David, but not in the ancestral line of the promised Messiah, who was to be born of the seed of Solomon, until Naria the descendant of Nathan coupled with Tamah the descendant of Solomon, to produce Salathiel the ancestor of Jesus, who has been made High Priest (From the tribe of Levi=Nathan) and King (From the tribe of Judah=Solomon) in the order of Melchizedek.

David Hughes the noted Genealogist of the Ancient World Lineages, states that King Jeconiah’s only son, with Queen Tamar, ‘Prince Zedekiah,’ died prematurely in childhood, and in 586 BCE King Zedekiah, the last king of Israel, whose original name Mattaniah, was the son of Josiah and the uncle of Jehoiachin. King Zedekiah/Mattaniah, was taken prisoner and his sons were executed in front of him, after which, his eyes were gouged out, and there in Babylon, he remained blinded in exile for the rest of his life and it appeared that the entire royal lineage of King David through God’s chosen son, Solomon, had been exterminated.

With all the known direct lineages of male heirs to the lineage of King Solomon the son of King David and Bathsheba now extinct, Queen Tamar II became the dynastic heiress preserving not only the Lineage of King Solomon, but also became the inter-dynastic link, or the vital crossover heiress merging the non-royal Nathan lineage with the royal lineages of King Solomon. With the addition of Tamar representing the mainline descendants of King David, we now can understand the linkage between the two prime royal and non-royal lineages to the ancestry of the Jewish Messiah Yehoshua ben Yosef (Jesus son of Joseph the son of Alexander Helios a descendant of Nathan).

Jesus carried in his genes the potent fusion of Davidian and Zadokian bloodlines. He carried the potent bloodline of the royal mantle as a Priest-King of Israel and the messianic mantle as the Maschiach Yisra’el (Messiah of Israel) of the House of David.

Hebrew 5: 10; “And God declared him (Jesus) to be high priest according to the priestly order of Melchizedek.” Melchizedek held the titles of both King and high priest. Hebrew 5: 5; “In the same way, Christ did not take upon himself the honor of being high priest. Instead, God said to him, [On the day he was baptized] ‘You are my Son; TODAY I have become your Father.’”
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I can't speak to every prophecy in the bible.
I had to Google this particular one as I have
never heard of it.
I speak to the broad themes, those which
are repeated over and over, and have a
spiritual nature to them.
As for "Nebby" I understand that the
prophecy was for Israeli captivity and
return. And Babylon would never be
inhabited again. That's actually what
happened.
No, the Tyre prophesy had to do with the island of Tyre, hence the name.

Somehow Zeke got offended by the island's leader so he predicted its and his doom. The king of Tyre died of old age eventually, and Tyre itself is still there.

how did you get so confused?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Subduction Zone wrote………Perhaps you should be asking how we know that it is a myth. For example Luke totally botched his nativity myth. That is why no serious scholar takes that part of Luke's work seriously at all.

The Anointed………Perhaps it is your Ignorance to the truth as revealed in scripture that makes you erroneously believe that Luke botched his nativity story.

Subduction Zone wrote…….In fact both Matthew and Luke fabricated a nativity story so naturally they do not agree with each other. At one point in time Matthew's lineage was argued to be that of Mary's. There is no legitimate reason to think that either is correct. Perhaps you should be asking how we know that it is a myth. For example Luke totally botched his nativity myth. That is why no serious scholar takes that part of Luke's work seriously at all.


The Anointed…….If you were capable of comprehending the scriptures that in your ignorance you attack, you would know that the genealogy in Matthew is that of Joseph the son of Jacob, who married the already pregnant Mary,

Matthew’s nativity story tells us that Jesus was born in the town of Bethlehem, which agrees with Luke.

Matthew states that the birth of Jesus happened to make come true, what the Lord had said through his Prophet Isaiah, and that was, that an [ALMAH] ‘an unmarried woman’ who is pregnant will bear a son and he would be called “God is with us.” And we Know that the Lord God our saviour, who filled the man Jesus with his spirit, and who, from within his chosen earthly temple, [The Man Jesus] he spoke his WORDS to us.

Deuteronomy 18: 18; YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, says to Moses; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he and he shall speak to them all that I command, and whosoever will not heed MY WORDS which he shall speak in my name, I will punish, etc.

Destroy this Temple [Which temple was The Man Jesus] said the Lord, and in three days I will raise it up.

Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

Acts 17: 31; For the Lord has fixed a day [And that day is the Lords day of one thousand years, the great Sabbath, of which Paul says is the future reality of which the weekly Sabbath was but a shadow] in which he will judge the whole world with Justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death. _________________________

It was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, (The Son of Man, the MOST HIGH in the creation) who said through his obedient servant Jesus; “Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up.”

Matthew goes on to record the genealogy of Joseph ben Jacob, who married Mary, who was already pregnant to her Half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios III or Heli.

If Jesus had been genetically connected with Joseph the son of Jacob, he would have had no chance of sitting on the throne of his ancestor ‘King David.” As Joseph ben Jacob was a descendant of the cursed ‘Jehoiachin,’ of who the Lord said through Jeremiah 22: 30; “Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days; for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.”

But we know from Luke that Jesus was actually the son of Joseph ben Heli a descendant of Nathan the prophet, the son of Bathsheba and Uriah, who was adopted by King David after the death of Uriah.

The Talmud states, "Whoever brings up an orphan in his home is regarded...as though the child had been born to him." (Sanhedrin 119b).” In other words, the adopted child is to be treated as a child born to the father of that house, which means, that Heli and his descendants, who were born from the genetic line of Nathan ‘the prophet,’ who was the adopted son of King David, were legitimate heirs to King David, but not to the throne of Israel, as the prophesied Messiah had to come through the genetic line of Solomon.

Heli and his descendants only became heirs to the throne of David, through Nathan the adopted son of King David, when Naria, a descendant of Nathan, married Tamar, a female descendant of King Solomon, who bore to Naria a son by the name “Salathiel.” After the death of Naria, Tamar was taken to wife by King Jehoiachin, whose only son with Tamar, was Zedekiah who died prematurely in Childhood.

Salathiel was not of the seed of Jehoiachin.

According to Torah law, Nathan the adopted son of King David and his descendants, were legitimate heirs of King David, but not in the ancestral line of the promised Messiah, who was to be born of the seed of Solomon, until Naria the descendant of Nathan coupled with Tamah the descendant of Solomon, to produce Salathiel the ancestor of Jesus, who has been made High Priest (From the tribe of Levi=Nathan) and King (From the tribe of Judah=Solomon) in the order of Melchizedek.

David Hughes the noted Genealogist of the Ancient World Lineages, states that King Jeconiah’s only son, with Queen Tamar, ‘Prince Zedekiah,’ died prematurely in childhood, and in 586 BCE King Zedekiah, the last king of Israel, whose original name Mattaniah, was the son of Josiah and the uncle of Jehoiachin. King Zedekiah/Mattaniah, was taken prisoner and his sons were executed in front of him, after which, his eyes were gouged out, and there in Babylon, he remained blinded in exile for the rest of his life and it appeared that the entire royal lineage of King David through God’s chosen son, Solomon, had been exterminated.

With all the known direct lineages of male heirs to the lineage of King Solomon the son of King David and Bathsheba now extinct, Queen Tamar II became the dynastic heiress preserving not only the Lineage of King Solomon, but also became the inter-dynastic link, or the vital crossover heiress merging the non-royal Nathan lineage with the royal lineages of King Solomon. With the addition of Tamar representing the mainline descendants of King David, we now can understand the linkage between the two prime royal and non-royal lineages to the ancestry of the Jewish Messiah Yehoshua ben Yosef (Jesus son of Joseph the son of Alexander Helios a descendant of Nathan).

Jesus carried in his genes the potent fusion of Davidian and Zadokian bloodlines. He carried the potent bloodline of the royal mantle as a Priest-King of Israel and the messianic mantle as the Maschiach Yisra’el (Messiah of Israel) of the House of David.

Hebrew 5: 10; “And God declared him (Jesus) to be high priest according to the priestly order of Melchizedek.” Melchizedek held the titles of both King and high priest. Hebrew 5: 5; “In the same way, Christ did not take upon himself the honor of being high priest. Instead, God said to him, [On the day he was baptized] ‘You are my Son; TODAY I have become your Father.’”


Such a wall of text full of failure. You need to rely on real scholars and not apologists if you want to be taken seriously. But then real scholars do not support your beliefs.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Such a wall of text full of failure. You need to rely on real scholars and not apologists if you want to be taken seriously. But then real scholars do not support your beliefs.

You are referring to your atheist scholars aren't you? And do you still believe that the genealogical record in Matthew, is that of Jesus, as do your atheist scholars? Is Joseph ben Jacob, who married the already pregnant Mary the mother of Jesus, the biological father of Jesus, or his step-father?
 
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PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
No, the Tyre prophesy had to do with the island of Tyre, hence the name.

Somehow Zeke got offended by the island's leader so he predicted its and his doom. The king of Tyre died of old age eventually, and Tyre itself is still there.

how did you get so confused?

Again, haven't heard of this, and haven't looked into it.
I would make a suggestion - this stuff came from a web
site which looked at failed prophecies? To be honest with
yourself you would have to look at successful prophecies
and ask yourself "How come? What are the chances?"
and then... study in depth those prophecies that people
think have "failed."
And by this I mean the so-called failed prophecy of the
Messianic King, ruler and conqueror. If you honestly seek
to read ALL the Messiah prophecies you see that the Jews
are not being honest in judging Jesus - because, as you
know, "it's complicated."
 
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