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Featured ONCE AGAIN! Facts in the Bible is supported by archaeology.

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by KenS, Nov 30, 2018.

  1. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    Well you can't prove it's true or that Romulus isn't the true savior god.
    But this lends credibility that Jesus was a pagan copy and probably wasn't even a real person.

    The differences are because every cult is different and has different mythologies. Religious synchretism always shows differences that are unique to each religion. What matters and what tells us synchrezation is happening is the similarities, you actually have it completely backwards.

    Every dying-and-rising god is different. Every death is different. Every resurrection is different. All irrelevant. The commonality is that there is a death and a resurrection. Everything else is a mixture of syncretized ideas from the borrowing and borrowed cultures, to produce a new and unique god and myth.

    Not in ancient Asia. Or anywhere else. Only the West, from Mesopotamia to North Africa and Europe. There was a very common and popular mytheme that had arisen in the Hellenistic period—from at least the death of Alexander the Great in the 300s B.C. through the Roman period, until at least Constantine in the 300s A.D. Nearly every culture created and popularized one: the Egyptians had one, the Thracians had one, the Syrians had one, the Persians had one, and so on. The Jews were actually late to the party in building one of their own, in the form of Jesus Christ. It just didn’t become popular among the Jews, and thus ended up a Gentile religion. But if any erudite religious scholar in 1 B.C. had been asked “If the Jews invented one of these gods, what would it look like?” they would have described the entire Christian religion to a T. Before it even existed. That can’t be a coincidence.

    The general features most often shared by all these cults are (when we eliminate all their differences and what remains is only what they share in common):

    • They are personal salvation cults (often evolved from prior agricultural cults).
    • They guarantee the individual a good place in the afterlife (a concern not present in most prior forms of religion).
    • They are cults you join membership with (as opposed to just being open communal religions).
    • They enact a fictive kin group (members are now all brothers and sisters).
    • They are joined through baptism (the use of water-contact rituals to effect an initiation).
    • They are maintained through communion (regular sacred meals enacting the presence of the god).
    • They involved secret teachings reserved only to members (and some only to members of certain rank).
    • They used a common vocabulary to identify all these concepts and their role.
    • They are syncretistic (they modify this common package of ideas with concepts distinctive of the adopting culture).

    • They are mono- or henotheistic (they preach a supreme god by whom and to whom all other divinities are created and subordinate).
    • They are individualistic (they relate primarily to salvation of the individual, not the community).
    • And they are cosmopolitan (they intentionally cross social borders of race, culture, nation, wealth, or even gender).
    You might start to notice we’ve almost completely described Christianity already. It gets better. These cults all had a common central savior deity, who shared most or all these features (when, once again, we eliminate all their differences and what remains is only what they share in common):

    • They are all “savior gods” (literally so-named and so-called).
    • They are usually the “son” of a supreme God (or occasionally “daughter”).
    • They all undergo a “passion” (a “suffering” or “struggle,” literally the same word in Greek, patheôn).
    • That passion is often, but not always, a death (followed by a resurrection and triumph).
    • By which “passion” (of whatever kind) they obtain victory over death.
    • Which victory they then share with their followers (typically through baptism and communion).
    • They also all have stories about them set in human history on earth.
    • Yet so far as we can tell, none of them ever actually existed.
    This is sounding even more like Christianity, isn’t it? Odd that. Just mix in the culturally distinct features of Judaism that it was syncretized with, such as messianism, apocalypticism, scripturalism, and the particularly Jewish ideas about resurrection—as well as Jewish soteriology, cosmology, and rituals, and other things peculiar to Judaism, such as an abhorrence of sexuality and an obsession with blood atonement and substitutionary sacrifice—and you literally have Christianity fully spelled out. Before it even existed.


    The Jews saw these concepts from the Persians and even started writing it into the OT and predicting their own messiah.
    Then all other nations in the area start having their own savior and the Jews finally create one, last to the party.
    Even Christian apologists and church fathers in those days admitted the similaries and told people that Satan changed history to make it look like Jesus was a copy of Pagan gods.
    Almost 2000 years ago Justin Myrter actually had better apologetics than modern Christians who just pretend like there isn't anything to it. Denial.
     
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  2. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    Romulus pre-dates Christ and is not written in Hebrew.
    Romulus’s death and return to life are attested in numerous pre-Christian sources (Cicero, Laws 1.3 & Republic 2.10; Livy 1.16; Ovid, Fasti 2.491-512 and Metamorphoses 14.805-51; and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Roman Antiquities 2.63.3-4).


    The OT writers learned of savior messiahs from the Persians. After the invasion we see the concepts begin to appear in the OT.
    The NT was formed in part from the messiah prophecies, same thing all cultures in the area were doing. They also were re-writing Moses and Elija for a new generation.

    There are 229 failed prophecies. A handful vaguely came true. This is not prophetic any more than Nostradamus and the handful of prophecies that came true out of the 100s he predicted.
    God promised so many things to his people that have failed. Even Jesus clearly said those in this generation will live to see me come again.

    You can jump up and down about these non-prophecies all day. The fact remains thee are no prophecies that can be shown to be definitive.
    You can't prove that a Greek speaking Jew didn't craft a gospel using OT sources and Pagan myths. So this gets you no where.
    I notice you just keep using the same unimpressive material over and over. I can predict when you'll bring each thing up.

    Daniel, camels then prophecies.......daniel, camels, prophecies....none of this helps in any way
     
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  3. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    The Persians were nearly two millennium AFTER Jacob spoke of the Messiah
    as ending a Jewish nation and being loved of the Gentiles.
    The Persians were 400 years AFTER King David spoke of the suffering Messiah
    on the cross, despised by the world and disbelieved upon by even his own siblings.
    And Daniel, who was during this Persian period, spoke of the Messiah being "cut
    off" for his people before the temple would be destroyed.
    Isaiah said the Jews would return "a second time" when they hadn't left the first
    time under Nebuchadnezzar.
    And Ezekiel, during this same period, spoke of a time when the Jews would return
    and rebuild their nation - and be attacked in a battle which has not yet occurred. That
    story was strange to Jewish ears because they couldn't see themselves leaving
    Babylon, ever, let alone going home a second time.
     
  4. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Quote - "There are 229 failed prophecies. A handful vaguely came true"

    Not sure what these are. The bible gives us two Messiahs - Redeemer and
    King. It states that we can't be accepted of this King unless we accepted him
    as our Redeemer.
    The Jews dispensed with the Redeemer prophecies - they wanted a worldly
    warrior to fight human battles. They never saw their own sin and the need for
    a redeemer (the Lamb of God who laid down his life for his people.)
    This could be where these "failed" prophecies come from. Jesus has not
    returned to be the King.
    Zachariah was my favorite writer for showing the two Messiahs are one, ie
    the King who rules over the nations - the one whose hands and feet were
    pierced, the one who was meek and rode upon a donkey.
     
  5. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    "convey thoughts"!?

    So, your much-touted Prophecies about the coming Messiah really weren't prophecies after all. I thought that's what I said.

    I am not a seer. However, if I was a seer I would be very specific about my wording. That way, when the prophesized events occurred, people would realize that my words were actual prophecies. Your folks, to the contrary, did nothing more than, in your own words, "convey thoughts".
     
  6. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    From your linked article...
    Well, yeah, they sorta do.

    There are extensive passages in the gospels that show Jesus' words within quotation marks. There are extensive passages in the gospels that are written as first-hand eyewitness accounts.

    These are either flat out lies or written with desire to deceive.
     
  7. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    No. So why are you posting in it?
     
  8. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    Why are you equating scholars with scientists? Scholars can write and say anything they like. There are no formal rules to follow.

    At some point in time, scholars may come along and refute the writing of other scholars. That's good. But, again, it has nothing to do with science.
     
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  9. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    If many religious stories are patently false, that is evidence that many religious stories are false. The evidence is more and more coming to support the idea that all the OT stories and all the NT stories are fiction.

    There are very few Christians who take Genesis to be literal truth.

    As to the other stories in the OT, most Christians don't even know about them. Regarding the NT, most Christians do still believe in Jesus and his birth to a virgin and his death on a cross and his ascent into heaven. However, they are largely unfamiliar with the rest of the stories.

    But as scholars and researchers dig deeper, they are finding that many of the events are fictionalized.
     
  10. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    I see you are still trying to sell the fantasy prophesies that you haven't been able to produce.
     
  11. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
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    I posted one minute after someone else did, so obviously it was still around when I posted. You should pay attention better.
     
  12. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Okay. Prior to there being a single Hebrew in what is Palestine today,
    when the Hebrew tribe lived in Northern Egypt, having emigrated
    along with many other Semites - Jacob spoke of a monarchy coming
    from his son Judah. That implies a nation, of course. But that nation
    will last only to the Messiah comes.
    Moses led the people to that Promised Land, but he warned that one
    day the Jews would lose that land.
    This prophecy is repeated endlessly throughout the Old Testament.
    Imagine if someone told the Americans they would lose their land
    but return later!!!

    Later writers spoke of TWO losses, ie

    Isaiah "In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to
    reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower
    Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia,
    from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean."


    This clearly referred to the 20th Century. Speaks of some of these
    countries as being the Jew's "graves." Over half a million Jews came
    out of these countries after 1948, a surviving remnant of Jews,
    driven out.

    Ezekiel gives two full chapters with quite explicit details of a future
    war in Israel, one which hasn't happened yet. Reads like a nuclear
    war to be honest. This lists Israel's enemies but there is one ally
    which has no name - "the islands" or "coastlands" that send fire
    upon Magog "from the north" of a nation already to the "uttermost
    north." Wonder if that is referring to the US and Russia.
     
  13. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    As in - "Israel will lose her land in AD 70 and not begin returning until 1897"
    That kind of prophecy? The bible is meant to be a spiritual book, a book of
    warning and promises. Those Jews who for 1900 years broke a glass at
    weddings and said "Next year in Jerusalem" lived in hope that might be true.
    Though of course most didn't. It's enough to know it will happen.

    Jesus said "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by
    his own authority.." But it was enough to warn them that Jerusalem will be
    put to siege and there would be wrath upon the Jews. And Jerusalem would
    belong to the Gentiles until the Gentiles time is finished. Jesus was exhorting
    them not to dates but to wisdom, caution, patience and safety
    . His warning
    saved the lives of many Christians BTW (so much for the claim of things
    written AFTERthe event!)
     
  14. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Depends upon the scholar, and depends upon the age that scholar lived in.
    I have given specific examples of things *** some *** scholars claim that
    were proven wrong. As archeology continues in the Levant more and more
    stuff turns up. The old notion that the Jews were just Canaanites who had
    no literature, central organization or even bible is slowly unraveling.

    (glad there's a proof reader on this forum - my spelling is terrible)
     
  15. ecco

    ecco Veteran Member

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    You should get a sense of humor.
     
  16. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    What a load of....
     
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  17. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    You might need to be a tad more specific.

    Image a group of people who claim to come from ancient Babylonian stock
    urban, secular and scattered all over the world
    fighting their way into their ancient land in Iraq
    installing their govt, rebuilding Babylon, resurrecting their ancient language
    recreating their old religion
    and become THE power of the Middle East.

    You have every right to mock the idea, as would the intellectuals.
    But something similar to this happened to the Jewish people with Israel.
    "Just a load of ..." the cognoscenti said, right into the early 20th Century.
    Not anymore.
     
    #737 PruePhillip, Jan 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
  18. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    No, scholars disagree on exactly when these were written. For one, savior messiahs go back to Greek, Egyptain and other cultures.
    But the Persian invasion was responsible for much of the theology according to biblical PhD Richard Carrier.


    As for why the book was created, a theory which has gained considerable interest is "Persian imperial authorisation". This proposes that the Persians of the Achaemenid Empire, after their conquest of Babylon in 539 BC, agreed to grant Jerusalem a large measure of local autonomy within the empire, but required the local authorities to produce a single law code accepted by the entire community. The two powerful groups making up the community—the priestly families who controlled the Temple and who traced their origin to Moses and the wilderness wanderings, and the major landowning families who made up the "elders" and who traced their own origins to Abraham, who had "given" them the land—were in conflict over many issues, and each had its own "history of origins", but the Persian promise of greatly increased local autonomy for all provided a powerful incentive to cooperate in producing a single text.[19]

    However the parallels of the pagan savior gods to Jesus is far more obvious.
    But the NT was written USING the OT as a guide for what type of savior to create.
     
  19. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    Things god promised and did not deliver. Things god said would happen then they did not, over 200 of them.
    Exactly what you would expect from a book written by men.


    Bible: Prophecy and Misquotes
    Genesis

    1. "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
      God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so, he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5). 2:17
    2. As a punishment for killing Abel, God says Cain will be "a fugitive and a vagabond." Yet in just a few verses (4:16-17) Cain will settle down, marry, have a son, and build a city. This is not the activity one would expect from a fugitive and a vagabond. 4:12
    3. God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But both history and the bible (Acts 7:5 and Hebrews 11:13) show that God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14
    4. How long was the Egyptian captivity? This verse says 400 years, but Exodus 12:40 and Galatians 3:17 say 430 years. 15:13
    5. "In the fourth generation they [Abraham's descendants] shall come hither again." But, if we count Abraham, then their return occurred after seven generations: Abraham, Isaac (Gen 21:1-3), Jacob (Gen.25:19-26), Levi (Gen 35:22-23), Kohath (Ex 6:16), Amramn (Ex 6:18), and Moses (Ex 6:20). 15:16
    6. God promises to make Isaac's descendents as numerous as "the stars of heaven", which, of course, never happened. The Jews have always been, and will always be, a small minority. 22:17-18, 26:4
    7. God renames Jacob twice (32:28, 35:10 ). God says that Jacob will henceforth be called Israel, but the Bible continues to call him Jacob anyway (47:28-29). And even God himself calls him Jacob in 46:2. 32:28, 35:10
    8. God calls Jacob Jacob, though he said in Gen.32:28 and 35:10 that he would no longer be called Jacob but Israel. 46:2
    9. God promises to bring Jacob safely back from Egypt, but Jacob dies in Egypt (Gen.47:28-29) 46:3
    10. The tribe of Judah will reign "until Shiloh," but Israel's first king (Saul) was from the tribe of Benjamin (Acts 13:21), and most of the time after this prophecy there was no king at all. 49:10
    11. "He washed his garments in wine ... His eyes shall be red with wine."
      Did Judah really wash his clothes in wine? Were his eyes bloodshot from drinking too much? Or is this a prophecy of Jesus? (I didn't know Jesus had a drinking problem.) 49:11-12
    12. Contrary to the prophecy in 48:21, Joseph died in Egypt, not Israel. Gen.50:24

    1. Exodus

    2. God promises to cast out many nations including the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But he was unable to keep his promise. 33:2
    3. In this verse God says he will write on the stone tablets, but in 34:27 he tells Moses to do the writing. 34:1


      Numbers

    4. "If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will ... speak unto him in a dream." Now there's a reliable way to communicate with someone! 12:6
    5. "There shall come a Star out of Jacob"
      This verse is called the "star prophecy" and is sometimes claimed to be a prophecy of the star of Bethlehem (Matthew 2:2). But this seems unlikely, since the verse refers to Moab, and the kingdom of Moab didn't exist in New Testament times. Jesus didn't smite Moab or kill the children of Sheth. ("Sheth" here refers to Seth -- the son of Adam, from whom Noah and, according to the Bible, all other humans descended. So if this is a prophecy about Jesus, then it prophesies that Jesus will someday kill everyone on earth.) 24:17
      Deuteronomy

    6. God says that the Israelites will destroy all of the peoples they encounter. But he was unable to keep his promise. 7:1, 7:23-24, 31:3
    7. God's favorite people will never be infertile (neither will their cows!) and will never get sick. (God will send infertility and diseases on the other guys.) 7:14-15
    8. Prophets and dreamers are to be executed if they say or dream the wrong things. 13:1-5
    9. Who is the prophesied prophet? 18:18
    10. False prophets are to be (you guessed it) executed. How do you know who is a false prophet? By whether or not their predictions come true. (Watch out Jehovah's Witnesses!) 18:20
    11. Misquoted in Rom.10:8. 30:14
    12. Choose life (!) 30:19
    1. Joshua

    2. God promises to give Joshua all of the land that his "foot shall tread upon." He says that none of the people he encounters will be able to resist him. But later we find that God didn't keep his promise, and that many tribes withstood Joshua's attempt to steal their land. 1:3-5, 3:10, 15:63, 16:10, 17:12-13, 17:17-18, 21:43-45
    3. This verse says that Ai was never again occupied after it was destroyed by Joshua. But Nehemiah (7:32) lists it among the cities of Israel at the time of the Babylonian captivity. 8:28
    1. Judges

    2. God promised many times that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they encountered. But he failed to keep that promise 1:19, 1:21-27, 3:1-5


     
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  20. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    1. Judges

    2. God promised many times that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they encountered. But he failed to keep that promise 1:19, 1:21-27, 3:1-5




      2 Samuel

    3. "Thy kingdom shall be established for ever."
      God says that Davids's kingdom will last forever. It didn't of course. It was entirely destroyed about 400 years after Solomon's death, never to be rebuilt. 7:13, 16
      1 Kings

    4. "Men's bones shall be burnt upon thee."
      Although this prophecy was apparently fulfilled in 2 Kings 23:20, no credit should be given for it, since it was supposedly given during the reign of Jeroboam (ca. 900 BCE), yet it was actually made more than 300 years later. Evidence for the late date is found in verse 32, which refers to the the northern kingdom as Samaria, a term that wasn't used until after the Assyrians captured that kingdom in 721 BCE. And since the two books of Kings (which were originally one) were compiled after 566 BCE, while Josiah died in 609 BCE, the prophecy was made after the prophesied event, and was, therefore, not a prophecy at all. (Source: New Oxford Annotated Bible, OT:446; Oxford Companion to the Bible, 411) 13:2
    5. God puts a "lying spirit" in the mouth of his prophets. 22:22
      2 Kings

    6. God promises Josiah that he will have a peaceful death. But Josiah's death was anything but peaceful. (2 Kg 23:29-30, 2 Chr 35:23-24) 22:20
    7. In Jeremiah (34:4) God tells Zedekiah that he will die in peace and be buried with his fathers. But this verse and Jer 52:10-11 say that he died a violent death in a foreign land. 25:7
      1. 2 Chronicles

      2. The trouble with prophets 18:5-34
      3. God puts lies into the mouths of his prophets and speaks evil about people. 18:21-22
      4. Josiah died from an arrow wound in battle, not "in peace" as is promised in 2 Kings 22:20. 35:23
      5. According to this verse, Jeremiah prophesied that King Cyrus would rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. But there is no such prophecy in Jeremiah. Maybe the author was thinking of Isaiah (44:28, 45:1) or Ezra (1:1-2, 4:3, 5:13-17, 6:3). 36:22








        Psalms

      6. Misquoted in Ephesians 4:8, which says: "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."
        The author changed the words and meaning of the psalm from "received gifts" to "gave gifts". 68:18
      7. Misquoted in Matthew 13:35. 78:2-3
      8. "I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations." But the Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah; there were none during the Babylonian captivity, and there are none today. 89:3-4, 34-37
      1. Isaiah

      2. God told Isaiah to tell Ahaz, the King of Judah, not to be concerned about Rezin (the king of Syria) or Pekah (the king of Israel). But according to 2 Chr 28:5-6 "God delivered him [Ahaz] into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him, and carried away a great multitude of them captives, and brought them to Damascus. And he was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who smote him with a great slaughter." 7:3-7
      3. The King James Version mistranslates the Hebrew word "almah", which means "young woman" as "virgin". (The Hebrew word, "bethulah", means "virgin".) In addition, the young woman referred to in this verse was living at the time of the prophecy. And Jesus, of course, was called Jesus -- and is not called Emmanuel in any verse in the New Testament. 7:14
      4. 9/11 was a divine act of terrorism. If we rebuild, God will force us to eat our own arms. (Or something like that.)
        (See WND for the exciting details) 9:10-20
      5. As a sign that he's getting ready to destroy the world, God will destroy the whole universe. 13:10-13
      6. These verses falsely predict that Babylon will never again be inhabited. 13:19-20
      7. Dragons will live in Babylonian palaces and satyrs will dance there. 13:21-22
      8. Every head will be bald, every beard will be shaved, and everyone will howl and weep abundantly. 15:2-3
      9. "Therefore shall Moab howl for Moab, every one shall howl." 16:7
      10. "Within three years ... the glory of Moab shall be contemned, with all that great multitude; and the remnant shall be very small and feeble." 16:14
      11. This verse prophesies that Damascus will be completely destroyed and no longer be inhabited. Yet Damascus has never been completely destroyed and is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities. 17:1
      12. God will ride in on a cloud and scare the hell out of the Egyptians. 19:1
      13. The river of Egypt (identified as the Nile in RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 19:5
      14. "The land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt." Judah never invaded Egypt and was never a military threat to Egypt. 19:17
        1. This verse predicts that there shall be five cities in Egypt that speak the Canaanite language. But that language was never spoken in Egypt, and it is extinct now. 19:18
        2. These verses predict that the Egyptians will worship the Lord (Yahweh) with sacrifices and offerings. But Judaism has never been an important religion in Egypt. 19:18-21
        3. These verses predict that there will be an alliance between Egypt, Israel, and Assyria. But there has never been any such alliance, and it's unlikely that it ever will since Assyria no longer exists. 19:23-24
        4. "They have ... changed the ordinance. There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone."
          Is this a prophecy about prohibition in the United States? 24:5-11
        5. "The priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink." You can't even trust a drunken prophet anymore. 28:7
        6. "Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste."
          Misquoted in Romans 9:33 as: "As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." 28:16
        7. "The light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold." Well, this is one prophecy that will never come true. Since the moon has no light of its own, but only reflects that of the sun, it could never shine like the sun. And the sun will not, at least not while there are humans to see it, shine 7 times as bright as it does now. 30:26
        8. "The host of heaven shall be dissolved ... and ... shall fall down."
          The stars will dissolve and fall from the sky. 34:4
        9. "Henceforth there shall no more come into thee [Jerusalem] the uncircumcised and the unclean." But many uncircumcised people have visited and occupied Jerusalem after this prophecy was made. 52:1
        10. Isaiah 53 is probably the most often used "prophecy" that is claimed by Christian apologists to refer to Jesus. But the context indicates otherwise. The "suffering servant" that is referred to here is Israel, not Jesus. 53:1-12
     
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