ONA Satanic Points

[Kori Houghton]

Very interesting stuff there! Its an odd coincidence that this morning I was thinking much the same thing, after reading warlockasylum's blog about the Simon Necronomicon. He goes on and on about the "Tree of Death" and the "Qlipphoth", and how they represent the powers of chaos and change, etc. And that to go LHP you simply see those vessels of darkness become light, and the lights become dark, blah blah.

I found warlockasylum's blog, and read some of it.

I sat in front of my keyboard for a few moments, trying to think of a polite way to express my reaction to what I read. But I can't. So, pass.

However, one subtle thing seemed to have passed him by, and seem to pass alot of supposed "dark practitioners",...by using a system which is still based on the Judeo-Christian model of orthodoxy (like the Qabala), you are no less enslaved to it than you were had you been just a regular "RHP" mage. I mean hey, the Tree of Death and the Tree of Life are pretty much identical, just the names are changed and the images/totems, etc are all spooky-lookin.

I'm not sure enslaved is the word I would use. It seems to me that practitioners freely choose to work with what I call "Mediterranean Monotheisms". With or without polytheistic add-ons or dark-n-spooky overlays. And I wouldn't characterize magickians who choose paths called "RHP" by folks who consider themselves "LHP" as being any more (or less) enslaved or having any more or less freedom.

Its almost as if its the same product, just re-labelled to advertise for a different audience. So, yeah, the ONA has definitely got this one pegged.

I've asked Thelemites over the years how and why they feel the need to continue the connection with religions specifically cursed in Liber AL, and it seems that "Crowley used them" and "it's traditional" are the explanations.

The ONA blog entries are about why Crowley has nothing to offer them. Over the years a few very intelligent, well-read, Satanist types have suggested to me that the ONA manuscripts (virtual now) are Crowley-inspired or Crowley-derived. I never found a bit of Crowley in anything from the ONA. I have a comprehensive personal library of AC's works, and the only place Uncle Al ever comes close to grabbing me in the place where the ONA hits me hardest is in some of his fiction.

However, I would note (playing devil's advocate here), that any genuine Magus would be able to work with either system equally, or reject them equally, as he/she decides. If a Magus really is beyond duality, then he/she could choose to see the light as dark, and the dark as light, to choose to be LHP or RHP or both/neither whenever he/she wished.

Well, yeah. That would be the way a genuine Magus views the universe. And they wouldn't have a clue about where the ONA is coming from. As much as I think I understand the ONA as an outsider, that is.

 

[Diane Vera]

Various writings of the ONA urge Satanists to get involved in neo-Nazism, and also promote violence. Frankly, I think the ONA was basically just an attempt to recruit Satanists to do neo-Nazism's dirty work. The author of the ONA material had a vivid imagination, but I see very little in it that's of real value.

 

[DarkSun]

In the system I was taught, the techniques were from a life or death combative standpoint. My Master said that if we could kill someone easily enough, it would be that much easier to subdue instead through restraint.

I am not a black belt. I only went for two years. I'm not trying to sound like a bad@@s. That is just the perspective from which we were trained. We started with a strangle hold with the forearm and then we learned the option of the rear naked. lol. They were effing crazy.

We were all actually people who didn't like to fight. We would only fight if our lives were being threatened, and that is the situation we trained for. We were restricted from participating in any fighting for sport or competition and if we were caught participating we would get kicked out. We were also advised of possibly being considered lethal in court as well.

It was a private class, not public. My boyfriend at the time was the instructor. That's how I got in.

Sorry, this is off-topic, but...
It sounds like you studied ninjutsu. Is that what you were doing? The mind-set sounds similar, except I think Hatsumi has actually said that the ultimate goal of a shinobi is to win the fight before it starts, and to never use more force than you need to (waste of energy). So I'm not sure.

I'm personally opposed to using excessive force, and think that part of an instructor's job is to teach control. So forgive me, but I think your sensei did you a disservice. I've been practicing Taekwondo and Hapkido in different dojangs for about two years now. Won silver at the state open for TKD.

 

[Kori Houghton]

Various writings of the ONA urge Satanists to get involved in neo-Nazism, and also promote violence. Frankly, I think the ONA was basically just an attempt to recruit Satanists to do neo-Nazism's dirty work.

It's been like 20 years, and you are still looking for connections between Satanists and neo-Nazis. I have to give you full marks for consistency!

Somehow I don't expect to turn on the evening news and see a video clip of a group of culturally and ethnically diverse (ie, nonwhite) young people standing on an urban streetcorner, passing out neo-Nazi leaflets and bellowing out "White Power". The image does have a certain MADTV-style quirky humor about it, but I don't think that is the reaction the ONA types are going for.

In case you haven't caught on to this yet, the ONA isn't all WASPy and testosterone poisoned.

The author of the ONA material had a vivid imagination, but I see very little in it that's of real value.

Only one author?

I think having a vivid imagination, and being able to express that creatively, is an essential part of working magick. If you said you found the ONA's material of value for your personal path, Diane, I would be concerned about my reading of it. Am delighted to agree to disagree :yes:

 

[NoSpam]

Frankly, I think the ONA was basically just an attempt to recruit Satanists to do neo-Nazism's dirty work. The author of the ONA material had a vivid imagination, but I see very little in it that's of real value.

At last, someone who gets it!

 

[Kori Houghton]

Yes, Diane gets it: if you mention Satanism and certain 20th Century political movements in combination, people pay attention.

She's been digging for satanazis for about 2 decades...at least, as long as I've known her online.

The more someone knows about the real power that moved the 3R, the more irony can be seen in the ONA manuscripts. At least, that's the way I read it.

 

[Mindmaster]

ONA gets grouped into the non-satanic retard pile just because of fascism, preaching hate, and in general nonsense that they are supposed to believe which is even further spread out to me than the Christian myths.

Any intelligent Satanist knows that we already have enough general public opinion against us, and not due to what any actual Satanists are doing but what a small group of nut cases are doing. Collectively, we need to dis-own nut jobs like ONA they give us a bad name and work against the true Satanic movement. Sometimes you need to disown the bag of mixed nuts types for the good of the whole. I fail to admit these guys are Satanic in the fact that so little of their agenda has anything to do with it. They're a neo-nazi occult group, and have nothing to do with us whatsoever they use Satan's name because they're attention whores.

 

[Orias]

ONA gets grouped into the non-satanic retard pile just because of fascism, preaching hate, and in general nonsense that they are supposed to believe which is even further spread out to me than the Christian myths.

Any intelligent Satanist knows that we already have enough general public opinion against us, and not due to what any actual Satanists are doing but what a small group of nut cases are doing. Collectively, we need to dis-own nut jobs like ONA they give us a bad name and work against the true Satanic movement. Sometimes you need to disown the bag of mixed nuts types for the good of the whole. I fail to admit these guys are Satanic in the fact that so little of their agenda has anything to do with it. They're a neo-nazi occult group, and have nothing to do with us whatsoever they use Satan's name because they're attention whores.

Agreed.

I heard from someone that David Myatt himself switched to Islamic faith. I just don't understand how a Satanist could actually do that, I guess the best answer is that he wasn't ever truly a Satanist, just a manipulator and a fraud.

 

[Kori Houghton]

It looks like both you and Mindmaster are basing your views on rumors about events that happened long ago, Orias. There is better, up-to-date, information about what the ONA and its founder have done and are doing, open and available for the reading online. But of course any Satanist is free to disown, dislike, disdain, or just plain disagree with, any other Satanist or their work.

 

[Mindmaster]

Agreed.

I heard from someone that David Myatt himself switched to Islamic faith. I just don't understand how a Satanist could actually do that, I guess the best answer is that he wasn't ever truly a Satanist, just a manipulator and a fraud.

A true Satanist cannot switch faith this is something I realized in my own case. The critical thought, the defiance, and the unending ability to see through bull put me where I am no matter what someone told me or made be do when I was younger. One is marked as such at birth and will irrevocably fall back. My head had been filled with lots of crap during my upbringing, and certainly I just snapped back to what I am. I tried to be 'normal' or do what others did, but it never felt right. I felt like I was pretending and certainly I was, but I realize why... survival.. so, I can forgive myself for that reason. There are certainly a lot of people who try us out though. Can't blame them, we have the best parties!

I think the first time I realized the jig was up was when I was asked by my parents and some people at the church if I'd like to be an altar boy. The response was: "That's totally for suckers." I don't think my teacher appreciated my contribution to the discussion.

 

[Mindmaster]

It looks like both you and Mindmaster are basing your views on rumors about events that happened long ago, Orias. There is better, up-to-date, information about what the ONA and its founder have done and are doing, open and available for the reading online. But of course any Satanist is free to disown, dislike, disdain, or just plain disagree with, any other Satanist or their work.

I don't think much has changed. Feel free to go to the following web site and go down the side to the question: Is ONA Nazi?

The Order of Nine Angles

This is a "dreekan'" flag.. ONA's supposed elite master race or some crap.

This is the same flag being used for some white power group on stormfront.org (yes, white power central)

White Nation´s flag - Page 17 - Stormfront

Looks awfully damn similar to me.. but what do I know


Apparently, if you are ONA you are also a White National Socialist douche bag. Since they basically believe in conformity they aren't possibly Satanic and need to GTFO.

 

[Kori Houghton]

Yes, it's worth noting how people react to symbols.

It's pretty much common knowledge that everyone associated with, or working with, the ONA isn't "white". It's difficult to find acceptance as "a White National Socialist retard" if you're not "white". White racialists tend to emphasize the "white" aspect over and above political philosophy or use of symbols from antiquity.

But it's not necessary to read the information available on the ONA's website and/or blogs in depth since the pictures tell all. Or maybe not....

 

[Mindmaster]

Yes, it's worth noting how people react to symbols.

It's pretty much common knowledge that everyone associated with, or working with, the ONA isn't "white". It's difficult to find acceptance as "a White National Socialist retard" if you're not "white". White racialists tend to emphasize the "white" aspect over and above political philosophy or use of symbols from antiquity.

But it's not necessary to read the information available on the ONA's website and/or blogs in depth since the pictures tell all. Or maybe not....

Symbols mean a lot of things to a lot of people, but mostly people use them for identity. So, why would you use this symbolism to represent your ideals if your concepts were in not some way affirming your relationship to the National Socialism movement? Better yet, what exactly makes the average Satanist want to identify with the typical white power group? I don't see any Wiccans running around with inverted pentagrams!

Strangely enough, I am cool with people being proud of their race and even forming groups or religions based on it. I am not cool with groups which use the term 'Race War' to define their implementation plan. That's what National Socialism currently is, and if it can someday be much less extreme I could probably appreciate it in the way that I do similar movements with in regard to people of Asian, Hispanic, and Black heritage. There is nothing wrong with being proud of who you are (or who you think you are), but there is certainly something wrong with their implementation.

 

[Kori Houghton]

Occasionally, groups both magickal and mundane run something up a flagpole to see who salutes, who complains, and who asks questions.

A lot of the public (online) activity involving the ONA for the past 2-3 years has involved a very diverse group of young people. They incorporate discussions of their diverse family customs and traditions into their writings about their work with the ONA. I find the ONA's use of the flag and symbolism shown in your post above to be ironic and provocative. I think a number of curious visitors to ONA blogs will stop dead in their intellectual tracks when they see those pictures, click away, and never return. The white neo-NS retards you mentioned might get a little farther, but will be bummed out when they read that the ONA is not exclusively "white".

 

[nightingale]

This is the same flag being used for some white power group

How interesting that you seem to have fallen into an ONA trap. Kori is correct - it's use by the ONA was designed to be provocative, and in several ways.

One of which is to give the one finger salute to the Magian and their lackeys. Another is to see how people react without thinking, to so reveal their own prejudices and assumptions and possibly provoke them to realize then challenge these. And so on. Blah blah blah

Apparently, if you are ONA you are also a White National Socialist douche bag.

I refer you to my previous reply, above

Since they basically believe in conformity

LOL! I guess texts such as the Guide To The Kulture and Sinister Ethos of the ONA passed you by.

The ONA is a collective - there is no conformity, and there are no rules. So, any Drecc is free to use whatever symbol, sigil, flag or banner, they want - there is no *officially ONA approved* Dreccian symbol.

If they use that provocative flag - great. If they want to use something else - great. The choice is theirs.

they aren't possibly Satanic .

Yawn. What is *satanic*? What is *satanism*? And who defines these, and why?

The ONA has its own definitions, its own ontology, and its own history of Satan. You and others may not agree with them, but the ONA doesn't care.

If people are interested in these ONA definitions, in the ontology of the ONA, and in the ONA history of Satan, they can find them. If people aren't interested enough to do that, who cares? I don't - and the ONA don't.

 

[nightingale]

A true Satanist cannot switch faith.

My dear boy - do try and make a distinction between an outer, possibly useful, form, and inner sinister intent. An outer form used to have fun, learn from, and possibly provoke others and possibly cause Change and Chaos, is not the essence.

That this is still not understood, except by a few, is interesting. That so few who call themselves Occutlists, of whatever shade or name, seem to lack the ability of Occult empathy, the magickal skill, to know the essence of a person they speak and write so glibly about, is possibly even more interesting.

Anyway - for the ONA it is sinister pathei-mathos that matters, not faith.

 

[Sakarius]

Agreed.

I heard from someone that David Myatt himself switched to Islamic faith. I just don't understand how a Satanist could actually do that, I guess the best answer is that he wasn't ever truly a Satanist, just a manipulator and a fraud.

Relevant quote:


"The third of our simple tests concerns the nature, the character, of a particular individual. This particular individual is considered by many journalists, by some writers about Occult matters, and by many of those interested in Satanism, the sinister, and The Left Hand Path, to be either the founder, or the current GrandMaster, of the ONA itself, or both of these things. Thus, for many people, this particular individual is “the public face of the ONA” even though he himself has always denied being involved with it.

This particular individual has been assigned various labels, various designations, and allotted to various categories, by many journalists, by some writers about Occult matters, and by many if not most of those interested in Satanism or who claim to be involved with or claim to actually be “Satanists”. Thus, the varied, publicly known, life of this individual is used in order to describe or classify him, and the ONA itself, and/or in order to show or to somehow “prove” that the ONA cannot or should not be taken seriously (and is thus not a genuine “Satanic” or LHP group), because, for example, this individual (the alleged founder and/or the alleged GrandMaster of the ONA) was reported to have done something, or was reported to believe something or be involved with something, which seemed or which seems to contradict what most wannabe or self-described “Satanists” consider to be “Satanic”.

Thus, if those interested in the ONA and who expect or who desire to associate themselves with, or become part of, the sinister ONA collective, have this common, mundane, perception and this common mundane and non-esoteric understanding of this particular individual, then they have failed our test. Hence, we have no interest in such people, and, furthermore, no interest in explaining this particular matter further, in public."

From the MS:

Some ONA Tests
A Test of Intent, Interest, Character, and Occult Ability

nineangles(dot)wordpress(dot)com/some-ona-tests

 

[Mindmaster]

I don't particularly see the point of deliberating further. ONA seems to have added Satanism to it's set of ideals because it is completely nothing shocking without it; ditto National Socialism imagery, and fascism. That's all I was getting to...

This particular individual has been assigned various labels, various designations, and allotted to various categories, by many journalists, by some writers about Occult matters, and by many if not most of those interested in Satanism or who claim to be involved with or claim to actually be “Satanists”. Thus, the varied, publicly known, life of this individual is used in order to describe or classify him, and the ONA itself, and/or in order to show or to somehow “prove” that the ONA cannot or should not be taken seriously (and is thus not a genuine “Satanic” or LHP group), because, for example, this individual (the alleged founder and/or the alleged GrandMaster of the ONA) was reported to have done something, or was reported to believe something or be involved with something, which seemed or which seems to contradict what most wannabe or self-described “Satanists” consider to be “Satanic”.

Generally, if what you are doing in regard to other Satanists isn't Satanic per se then generally you aren't a Satanist. There are a few fundamental similarities that define LHP and Satanic paths in general. ONA certainly has most of these elements in scope, but there are apparent philosophical failings.

Contrary to how it seems I take ONA seriously but I think Satanism is merely an anecdote in their overall plan. Fascism in particular is one less than Satanic concept, and really the only one I've commented on. Most Satanists are naturally slightly liberal to extremely liberal and that has nothing to do with the political people they vote for.

Thus, if those interested in the ONA and who expect or who desire to associate themselves with, or become part of, the sinister ONA collective, have this common, mundane, perception and this common mundane and non-esoteric understanding of this particular individual, then they have failed our test. Hence, we have no interest in such people, and, furthermore, no interest in explaining this particular matter further, in public."

Tests imply hierarchy and approval. Generally, this is an non-Satanic idea if ever there was one. 'Joiners' aren't Satanists... bottom line... Who decides if you're 'Satanic' enough? These issues don't exist for real Satanist because simply we don't freaking care. A real Satanist supplies their own 'infernal mandate' and doesn't need yours.

We do in fact care about perception because we realize it can used as a means to an end. If you are perceived as 'fascist psychopath' no one outside of your circle gives two craps what you have to say. That's the bit that no one inside of the ONA has figured out yet, but most of us outside of that group are completely aware of. If you truly believe what you print then you aren't hiding because you are some elite master society or cabal, but rather because you're all criminals (possibly by default) and would be shut down in the next minute and a half. Pardon me if I see parallels between what gangs do (we call it hazing) here in the states, and what you do. Gangs use that practice to detect undercover police mostly, and it doesn't surprise me that you are using a similar process. There is nothing mystical or Satanic about it, nor does it even indicate strength or weakness. The dregs of society will be happy to go through your silly process for approval as experience has shown; viz White Power movements in the US, etc.

 

[jasadallah9]

Generally, if what you are doing in regard to other Satanists isn't Satanic per say then generally you aren't a Satanist.

Who decides if you're 'Satanic' enough? These issues don't exist for real Satanist because simply we don't freaking care. A real Satanist supplies their own 'infernal mandate' and doesn't need yours.

The dregs of society will be happy to go through your silly process for approval as experience has shown...

"Per Say [sic]" is usually like this - Per Se.

First quote you say that in general only with the popular consensus of other Satanists is one a Satanist.

Second quote you ask yourself what I was going to exactly ask you. Who decided you're "Satanic?" Like you state: "These issues don't exist for real Satanist because simply we don't freaking care. A real Satanist supplies their own "infernal mandate."

Third quote is meaningful. ONA has never sought approval. Not for its use of National-Socialism; not for its use of Traditional Satanism; not for its use of Radical Islam; not for its endorsement and support of culling, crime, etc.

It is usually the "dregs" of society that get asshurt over the ONA and what Forms and Symbols it uses. Because such Forms and Symbols do not meet their personal approval.

You are either suffering from split personality or you don't seem to have your mind and position all in order. When you do read on further about ONA, you will eventually learn that it has nothing to do with "Satanism." And so all this hot air coming from you is over an Outer Form, which your ego is attached to as a substitute Self-Identity.

Edit: About the Odal Rune - It technically symbolizes a Folk, or the Folk, a Clan or the Clan, a Tribe or the Tribe. I believe David Myatt somewhere explains that a Folk has nothing to do with skin color and ethnicity but more so of people bound to you in life. The Odal Rune represents the letter "O," which is a Circle... as in your Circle of intimate associates, family, and kin. In the Five Percent Nation's Supreme Alphabet the letter "O" represents Cipher meaning a Circle of Associates, your Tribe, your Nation, your Kinfolk, who you live and die for, your comrades and companions in life.

 

[Kori Houghton]

I don't think any claim can be made that LHPers or Satanists tend to be "naturally...liberal". Leaving ONA completely out of the discussion, it's easy enough to find material presented by members of respected LHP or Satanist groups in blogs, PDFs, and on org sites expounding fascist positions, some with clear references. You have to know what fascism is, how it is presented by its contemporary proponents. A flag or a rune does not a fascho make. And not all of the buzzwords concerning "freedom" and "individuality" used by LHPers or Satanists should be taken at face value.