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"On this Rock I will build my church"

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
There are many places in the Bible where Jesus is called the "rock". And why would God's church be built on a mortal human and not on a devine being like Jesus. Peter's name is a play on words and means something like a small stone or pebble. Peter is just a small part of God's plan but the larger part, the rock, is Jesus. A church built on Peter would be Peter's church and not God's church.

Peter could not have built a church because he was not a Christian but a Jew. Paul was the one who built Christianity. (Acts 11:26)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Peter could not have built a church because he was not a Christian but a Jew. Paul was the one who built Christianity. (Acts 11:26)
Actually neither were "Christian" since the term didn't get used within the church until sometime during the 2nd century, along with "Catholic" (universal) and "Orthodox" (truth). Previous to that it appears to be used by outsiders as a derogatory name for "the Way".
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, even Jesus was a Jew. Christianity refers to the church that was built on Jesus Christ.
But that which I was responding to dealt with your division between Paul and Peter, whereas actually both were Jews and both led the way to eventually what was to be called "Christianity".
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
What is called "Christianity" today is a jumble of pagan beliefs and ideas that have been pulled together by a church that teaches very little of what Jesus taught.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Actually neither were "Christian" since the term didn't get used within the church until sometime during the 2nd century, along with "Catholic" (universal) and "Orthodox" (truth). Previous to that it appears to be used by outsiders as a derogatory name for "the Way".

"The Way" or the "New Way" was a reference to the most recent Jewish Sect of the Nazarenes in the First Century. Paul had become a Christian when he deserted Judaism and founded the Christian Church in the city of Antioch. (Acts 11:26) It was because of Paul's whole year he spent in the Synagogue of the Nazarenes in Antioch that the disciples started being called Christians. There is more than one way for a Jew to lose his Jewish identity and, to found an anti-Jewish religion was one of them. There is no such a thing as a Christian-Jew or a Jewish-Christian. Prophet Elijah could never deal with such straddlers of the issue between HaShem and Baal. (I Kings 18:21)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
"The Way" or the "New Way" was a reference to the most recent Jewish Sect of the Nazarenes in the First Century. Paul had become a Christian when he deserted Judaism and founded the Christian Church in the city of Antioch. (Acts 11:26) It was because of Paul's whole year he spent in the Synagogue of the Nazarenes in Antioch that the disciples started being called Christians. There is more than one way for a Jew to lose his Jewish identity and, to found an anti-Jewish religion was one of them. There is no such a thing as a Christian-Jew or a Jewish-Christian. Prophet Elijah could never deal with such straddlers of the issue between HaShem and Baal. (I Kings 18:21)
"The Way" is how the early church referred to itself, probably in a more informal way at first, and it comes from Jesus' supposed statement "I am the way...". This is the apostolic church and not any of the spin-offs.

The church started out as a Jewish sect, obviously very theologically liberal, which was not that terribly unusual back then, but certainly not within the mainstream of the Pharisee movement. So the early church certainly were following their own brand of Judaism. However, the rift between them, especially after 70 c.e., got wide enough whereas the use of different names of the movement gradually began to occur.

Therefore, Paul lived and died as a Jew and, as a matter of fact, he identifies himself as being a Pharisee upon arrest. .
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
What is called "Christianity" today is a jumble of pagan beliefs and ideas that have been pulled together by a church that teaches very little of what Jesus taught.
There's several hundred Christian denominations and thousands of independent churches, so which are you referring to? On top of that, each church uses pretty much the same Bible.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
"The Way" or the "New Way" was a reference to the most recent Jewish Sect of the Nazarenes in the First Century. Paul had become a Christian when he deserted Judaism and founded the Christian Church in the city of Antioch. (Acts 11:26) It was because of Paul's whole year he spent in the Synagogue of the Nazarenes in Antioch that the disciples started being called Christians. There is more than one way for a Jew to lose his Jewish identity and, to found an anti-Jewish religion was one of them. There is no such a thing as a Christian-Jew or a Jewish-Christian. Prophet Elijah could never deal with such straddlers of the issue between HaShem and Baal. (I Kings 18:21)
You could say Paul became a Christian when he recognized the Jewish Messiah was Jesus. Thereby continuing in the Jewish faith established by God not man. And breaking new ground, Paul was a strong proponent of the new element of the religion established by God, the inclusion of non Jews. So Paul had a dual citizenship as Christian and Jew.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
You could say Paul became a Christian when he recognized the Jewish Messiah was Jesus. Thereby continuing in the Jewish faith established by God not man. And breaking new ground, Paul was a strong proponent of the new element of the religion established by God, the inclusion of non Jews. So Paul had a dual citizenship as Christian and Jew.

If he was doing this at the time of Elijah, this would have slit his throat for straddling the issue between HaShem and Baal. (I Kings 18:21) If you ask me, Paul first got in touch with the Apostles of Jesus in Jerusalem when he returned from Damascus, applied to join the Sect of the Nazarenes and was rejected on the basis that he was a persecutor of the Nazarenes. So, he was set loose, and caused a havoc in Jerusalem, preaching that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God and that he had resurrected. (Acts 9:20; 26; II Timothy 2:8) The idea that Jesus was the Messiah was not a matter of being recognized by Paul but fabricated, if focus on II Timothy 2:8) That was the last straw. The Jewish authorities got on their heels to arrest him for preaching idolatry in Jerusalem but, afraid that he could involve the Apostles, these took Paul down to Tiberias, and from there, they sent him back to Tarsus where he belonged. About being a Christian, became is not the word, Paul founded Christianity in the city of Antioch after a whole year that he, at the invitation of Barnabas spent a whole year in the Nazarene synagogue of Antioch. At the end of that year, the disciples started being called Christians for the first time. Not the disciples of Jesus but the members of the Synagogue who had converted from the Gentiles. (Acts 11:26)
 
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Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If he was doing this at the time of Elijah, this would have slit his throat for straddling the issue between HaShem and Baal. (I Kings 18:21) If you ask me, Paul first got in touch with the Apostles of Jesus in Jerusalem when he returned from Damascus, applied to join the Sect of the Nazarenes and was rejected on the basis that he was a persecutor of the Nazarenes. So, he was set loose, and caused a havoc in Jerusalem, preaching that Jesus was the Messiah, son of God and that he had resurrected. (Acts 9:20; 26; II Timothy 2:8) The idea that Jesus was the Messiah was not a matter of being recognized by Paul but fabricated, if focus on II Timothy 2:8) That was the last straw. The Jewish authorities got on their heels to arrest him for preaching idolatry in Jerusalem but, afraid that he could involve the Apostles, these took Paul down to Tiberias, and from there, they sent him back to Tarsus where he belonged. About being a Christian, became is not the word, Paul founded Christianity in the city of Antioch after a whole year that he, at the invitation of Barnabas spent a whole year in the Nazarene synagogue of Antioch. At the end of that year, the disciples started being called Christians for the first time. Not the disciples of Jesus but the members of the Synagogue who had converted from the Gentiles. (Acts 11:26)
Paul was a Roman citizen and a Jew. What caused him to leave his cushy job of persecuting Christians to become a Christian and be persecuted?
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
"The Way" is how the early church referred to itself, probably in a more informal way at first, and it comes from Jesus' supposed statement "I am the way...". This is the apostolic church and not any of the spin-offs.

The church started out as a Jewish sect, obviously very theologically liberal, which was not that terribly unusual back then, but certainly not within the mainstream of the Pharisee movement. So the early church certainly were following their own brand of Judaism. However, the rift between them, especially after 70 c.e., got wide enough whereas the use of different names of the movement gradually began to occur.

Therefore, Paul lived and died as a Jew and, as a matter of fact, he identifies himself as being a Pharisee upon arrest. .

The Sect of the Nazarenes was called the Way or the New Way long before Paul founded the Christian Church if you read Acts 9:1,2. Paul lived the first part of his life as a Jew and died as a Christian and, that he was a Pharisee, he was lying. The Sect of the Pharisees was names as the "Separated Ones."
It means that they would never accept a Hellenist Jew as a member of the Sect.
 
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Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Paul was a Roman citizen and a Jew. What caused him to leave his cushy job of persecuting Christians to become a Christian and be persecuted?

Yes, Paul was always a Roman citizen but, a Jew, he was only until he founded an anti-Jewish church aka Christianity. And Paul never in his life persecuted a single Christian. I see no Logic in the founding of a church to persecute the adepts. He did persecute but the Sect of the Nazarenes if you read Acts 9:1,2. That's what he was doing in the synagogues of Damascus, arresting the Nazarenes and bringing them to Jerusalem for trial. Christians were not to be found in synagogues but in churches.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yes, Paul was always a Roman citizen but, a Jew, he was only until he founded an anti-Jewish church aka Christianity. And Paul never in his life persecuted a single Christian. I see no Logic in the founding of a church to persecute the adepts. He did persecute but the Sect of the Nazarenes if you read Acts 9:1,2. That's what he was doing in the synagogues of Damascus, arresting the Nazarenes and bringing them to Jerusalem for trial. Christians
were not to be found in synagogues but in churches.
Christians didn't build any churches the either rented a hall, met in their homes or found a spot by the river. Christians by any name, those who followed Jesus. As a Christian Paul always went to the Jewish synagogue first to spread the gospel. Some believed and some didn't.
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
You could say Paul became a Christian when he recognized the Jewish Messiah was Jesus. Thereby continuing in the Jewish faith established by God not man. And breaking new ground, Paul was a strong proponent of the new element of the religion established by God, the inclusion of non Jews. So Paul had a dual citizenship as Christian and Jew.

There is no such a thing as a Christian-Jew or a Jewish-Christian. Dual citizenship as religion was concerned never existed. Many Jews of the time of Prophet Elijah tried to uphold that dual citizenship between HaShem and Baal and Elijah called them into judgment and decreed that they were straddling the issue between HaShem and Baal and that was a no no. As they tried to uphold their right to keep their Jewish identity while practicing Paganism, Elijah took 800 of their prophets of Baal down to the valley of Kishon and slaughtered them all. (I Kings 18:19,21,40)
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There is no such a thing as a Christian-Jew or a Jewish-Christian. Dual citizenship as religion was concerned never existed. Many Jews of the time of Prophet Elijah tried to uphold that dual citizenship between HaShem and Baal and Elijah called them into judgment and decreed that they were straddling the issue between HaShem and Baal and that was a no no. As they tried to uphold their right to keep their Jewish identity while practicing Paganism, Elijah took 800 of their prophets of Baal down to the valley of Kishon and slaughtered them all. (I Kings 18:19,21,40)
None of those came back though...
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Christians didn't build any churches the either rented a hall, met in their homes or found a spot by the river. Christians by any name, those who followed Jesus. As a Christian Paul always went to the Jewish synagogue first to spread the gospel. Some believed and some didn't.

Oh! That's true! Paul as a Christian always went to the Jewish synagogues and especially on the Sabbath to catch a good number of Jews. That's wherefrom he got his members to people his churches. He was never able to raise a church from scratch. Now, Jesus never had a Christian for a follower. When Paul founded the Christian Church, it was about 30 years after Jesus had been gone. Jesus never even dreamed that Christianity would ever rise.
 
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